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WTS: '88 GT Turbo 3800 6 Speed Build (Project CR3810N) 2.0 by mptighe
Started on: 03-01-2015 06:31 PM
Replies: 38 (2376 views)
Last post by: MstangsBware on 05-30-2015 02:02 AM
mptighe
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Report this Post03-01-2015 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
SOLD

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 04-02-2015).]

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Report this Post03-01-2015 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Again, if you want to see more about the build, please go check this thread...

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/091085.html

Recent pics in the next post
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mptighe
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Report this Post03-01-2015 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here we go. I didn't take the pics, so please don't criticize if you don't like the angles, or want anything else. I do have a few more, but these are the better ones. The car looks better in person, and when it's had a recent bath. All these pics were taken 02/28/15, except the pic of the hood which was from before. The delay in posting pics came because everyone wanted to see the current condition of the car, not what it looked like a year and a half ago, and I had to wait for Paul to get the pics to me. I wasn't going to lie and try to pass of older pics as if they were current.

Front end, bra is still on, the nose definitely needs to be touched up paint wise, as does the car in general



Driver's side



Interior (It's in my garage)



Only ONE other car has these taillights, Yellowstone's



Here's why it went to Paul's. Only ONE other car has this exact hood, Soulcrusher's



The reason the car is selling for this price, and IT RUNS



More coming

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-01-2015).]

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Report this Post03-02-2015 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post03-02-2015 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for E.FurgalSend a Private Message to E.FurgalEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by revin:



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Report this Post03-02-2015 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
HMMM ...wish I didn't make the promise not to purchase anymore Fieros for the next 6 months.

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Report this Post03-02-2015 02:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JCircsClick Here to Email JCircsSend a Private Message to JCircsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TXOPIE:

HMMM ...wish I didn't make the promise not to purchase anymore Fieros for the next 6 months.


What's the over under on this? I'll lay $500 on the under, you can't do it.
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Report this Post03-02-2015 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TXOPIEClick Here to visit TXOPIE's HomePageClick Here to Email TXOPIESend a Private Message to TXOPIEEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JCircs:


What's the over under on this? I'll lay $500 on the under, you can't do it.



Jerry...I do say you are trying to tempt me.

"I can exercise self control"

MAYBE

And most wouldn't like what I did with it, if I did.
The engine and transmission would be swapped into the MyTestarossa build (based on 88 frame an cradle) and then I would install an extra 2.8 Turbo I have into this car.
I would finally install a very clean stock interior back into her and sell for fair price. Then sell the Firebird interior separately.

[This message has been edited by TXOPIE (edited 03-02-2015).]

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mptighe
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Report this Post03-02-2015 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's ok, there weren't many fans of what I did either. I'm not in a place where I have an emotional attachment to what the new owner does. It sounds like the drivetrain would do well in your other car, and you definitely have the patience and skill to get everything right. There are a couple of people considering the car, but I don't know for sure how serious anyone is yet.

I'm going to go into more detail on things later tonight when I have a little more time. If anyone has specific questions they'd like for me to answer, just let me know.

For the out of town folks (outside Texas), if someone decides they want the car, I'm willing to drive my parts cache out to GA so everything can be trailered / shipped all together, if the buyer is willing to pay for fuel. There are a few bins and several interior pieces, including two dashes, door panels, center consoles, etc. It might be pricey to ship it all so this would be the cheaper route.
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Report this Post03-03-2015 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ENGINE

The original engine was dyno-tuned at hit 460 WHP, with 475 TQ. This was only at 16.5 lbs of boost, but the fuel pump wasn't willing to be pushed any more, so that was the threshold it was stopped at. The previous engine was replaced after the meth injection kit's control board went all "Maximum Overdrive" and emptied the reservoir into the engine, which hydro locked the engine and blew a piston apart. Needless to say, the meth injection kit wasn't reinstalled. I had already purchased ZZP Stage 3 heads, and a better fuel pump to allow for the engine to make more power, so I decided to just have them installed with the new engine.

To make things easier on Dave, and to assure no potentially damaged parts would be reused, I ordered a rebuilt short-block 3800 from ZZP, sent them my new and reusable parts, and paid them to assemble everything, along with having the engine balanced, which increased the cost. When this was happening I decided that I'd rather have better economy and streetability, so I went with a ST2 cam instead of a replacement ST4. With the better heads and fuel pump, the turbo would be able to run at higher boost to make up for the smaller cam and loss of meth injection. Basically the second build was going to be much more efficient.

I'm going to list the parts that were purchased for the engine below. This will be the parts that are currently installed, not including any parts that had to be replaced, any custom fabrication, or labor costs. This is to verify that the cost for the parts used to build the drivetrain exceeds the sale price. I'm having to compile this from multiple sources, so it will take me a minute...
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mptighe
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Report this Post03-03-2015 05:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
ENGINE BUILD LIST (to be edited many times while I add things)


ZZP Rebuilt Short Block - $1,799
SKU : ZZ-RSB-38
Details : Option 1: standard 8.5:1 Compression
Sorry I couldn't find a link to their rebuilt short blocks on their site. I have an invoice.

ZZP Stage 3 Heads - $1,749
http://shop.zzperformance.c...rformance-heads.aspx (Make sure to choose stage 3)

Stattama Turbo ST2 Camshaft - $324.99
http://shop.zzperformance.c...Turbo-Camshafts.aspx (they had to order the ST2 for me)

Turbonetics GT-K500 T3 Ball-Bearing Turbo - $1,274.99
http://www.phantasmusa.com/t11260.html (Not who I ordered from, I got mine through Summit Racing)

Deatschwerks DW 300 Fuel Pump & Hardwire Kit - $217.65
http://www.deatschwerks.com...l-pumps/dw300-detail
http://www.deatschwerks.com...tallation-kit-detail

ZZP 65# Fuel Injectors - 219.99 (no longer on their site)

ZZP Billet Fuel Logs - $429.99
http://shop.zzperformance.c...illet-Fuel-Logs.aspx

Rollmaster Double Roller Timing Set - $209.99 (cheaper now apparently)
http://shop.zzperformance.c...ster-Timing-Set.aspx

Cometic Multi-Layer Head Gaskets - $179.99
http://shop.zzperformance.c...al-Head-Gaskets.aspx

ARP Head Studs - $79.99 (these have increased in price apparently)
http://shop.zzperformance.c...-ARP-Head-Studs.aspx

ZZP Oil Pan - $79.99
http://shop.zzperformance.c...e/p/504-Oil-Pan.aspx

Oil Pan Gasket - $29.99
http://shop.zzperformance.c...-Oil-Pan-Gasket.aspx

FieroX 3800 Engine Mounts - $340

Cold Air Intake & Filter - $260

Intercooler System - $280

Turbo Oil Lines - $150

Turbo Gaskets - $15

Turbo Bracket - $75

Turbo Blanket - $140

LS1 MAF - $160

Low Mount Alt Bracket - $275

Custom Ignition Wires - $125

Custom Stainless Steel Headers / Exhaust - $1,600

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-03-2015).]

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Report this Post03-03-2015 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've left a bunch of stuff off of the list above. My goal was to show that in drivetrain parts alone, there is more cost than the sale price. The total for those parts is just over $10k. I left off any labor from Dave, other than what he charged to make the headers and exhaust, because I would have to pay that if I bought them from him just like anyone else. I even left off the cost to have the short-block and additional parts assembled and balanced by ZZP.

In the next post, I'll detail the cost of the transmission parts needed to make it functional, including clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, treatment to strengthen it, axles, shift cables, etc.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-03-2015).]

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Report this Post03-03-2015 10:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cam-a-lotSend a Private Message to cam-a-lotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nice car, and definitely a great value for the right buyer. Any reason the interior is ripped out? It would probably be a lot easier to sell if it had an interior (even the old stock one) installed
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Report this Post03-03-2015 11:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cam-a-lot:

Nice car, and definitely a great value for the right buyer. Any reason the interior is ripped out? It would probably be a lot easier to sell if it had an interior (even the old stock one) installed



After the meth injection caused engine failure I had paid someone to begin swapping the Firebird interior in, but it needed to be shipped back to Dave to have the drivetrain repaired, so that got put on hold. Then, it went from Dave to Paul, and it was supposed to be finished when it got back to me. Unfortunately, during this whole process, I had to close my business and had some other unfortunate things happen with my health and family, and I just haven't been able to recover financially.

It is one of the many regrets I have about the timing of things. I realize that it would have been much easier with the interior installed. Dave could have retuned the car, making it easier to sell, and at a higher price. I can only sell what the car is though, not what it could have been. This can be seen as a negative for a potential buyer or a positive, as this detail is surely saving them some money. There's no way I would have sold the car for less than $12k if the interior had been complete, and the car retuned.

To reiterate, I have the original interior, and the 2001 Firebird interior for the car. Someone who has the skill and patience to do the work will be getting a hell of a deal. If the re-installation of the interior had to have a professional be paid, they're STILL getting a hell of a deal.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-04-2015).]

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Report this Post03-04-2015 12:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
TRANSMISSION BUILD LIST

These are the costs for the parts purchased in order to have a fully functioning 6 speed transmission, that is strong enough to hold the power of the engine. The labor associated with the swap is not included in this list, nor is the labor required in order to convert the car from an automatic to a manual. This same transmission setup is in Troy's car, holding up to his supercharged LS7. Again, this is not a debate thread, please refrain from opening a debate about the build in here. The car and swap are being sold as they were built, not based on opinion.

BRAND NEW (not refurbished) F40 6 Speed Transmission - $425 Shipped from Schram Auto Parts
Cryo & WPC Treatment / Quaife LSD Purchase & Installation - $2,824 from Performance Autowerks
SPEC Stage 3+ 3800 / F40 clutch / Flywheel Kit - $880
Custom F40 Shift Cables - $200
WCF F40 Transmission Mount - $350
Aluminum Clutch Master Cylinder - $140
Slave Cylinder - $135
Short Throw Shifter - $85
Rodney Dickman Clutch Line End - $35
F40 Hydraulic Adapter - $50
F40 Shift Bracket - $150
F40 Custom Axle Combo - $1,700 from V8 Archie


The total for what's listed above is just at $7K, and is one of the reasons why the car / drivetrain is worth more and WILL NEVER sell for $5K. I'll live in it before I sell it for that amount.

Believe it or not there are actually more odds and ends for the trans, and of course labor. This is where the car truly shouldn't be compared to other 3800 builds. This is not an unknown as I drove the car with the original build on this transmission. It worked flawlessly, and was smooth as could be. The flywheel has a chatter when in true neutral but all of these do that with every engine, it's because of the aftermarket flywheel / clutch combo, and has no affect on functionality.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-04-2015).]

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Report this Post03-04-2015 12:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The next post will detail miscellaneous and custom costs that have been left out. Things such as the electrical, tail lights, headlights, hood, sail panels, quarter panels, etc. Again, just parts, no labor with a few small exceptions. As everyone should be able to see, I'm already at double the asking price in drivetrain parts cost alone (the incomplete list is sitting at $17k), and there's more to come.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

As for Michael's car. You couldn't buy the parts and build this yourself for double of what he is asking.


If anyone wants proof of the cost of these things, contact me directly. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-04-2015).]

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Report this Post03-04-2015 08:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

mptighe

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Member since Aug 2009
Video of the car running, on 02/28/15 thanks to Paul. I just got an email from Paul linking the video this morning. Thank you Paul.





**EDIT** Embedded the video.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-05-2015).]

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Report this Post03-05-2015 03:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
MISC PARTS LIST

EXTERIOR

"YELLOWSTONE" TAILLIGHTS
Hella Tail Lights - $450 From Yellowstone
NEW OEM NOS Tail Light Lenses - $600
Modifications from Dean to Make "Yellowstone" Tail Lights - $500

"SOULCRUSHER" HOOD
'04 Mustang Cobra Hood - $250
Modifications from Paul Angel to Create Hood - $650

Mecham Urethane Quarter Panels - $450 (NEW, never installed)

Chris Cook Reproduction Sail Panels - $260 (uninstalled)

FIREBIRD INTERIOR
'01 Black Leather Firebird Interior - $1,000 (includes replacement seat covers, near mint)
JScott Plug and Play Dash Harness - $500

ELECTRICAL
Optima Red Top Battery - $215 (bought new during engine replacement)
Custom 3800 Wiring Harness - $850
Custom Battery Cables - $120

BRAKES & SUSPENSION
Corvette 12" EBC Rotors - $225
EBC Brake RedStuff Brake Pads - $170
Upgraded S10 Brake Booster - $100
WCF Corvette Brake Adapter Kit for '88 Fiero - $385 http://www.westcoastfiero.com/brakes/12/index.php
Eibach NOS Front & Rear '88 Fiero Specific Springs - $350 (newly installed)


WHEELS & TIRES
Front 17x7 Enkei Falcon Gray Wheel/Rim(s) 5x100 5-100 17-7 - $330
Rear 17x8 Enkei Falcon Gray Wheel/Rim(s) 5x100 5-100 17-8 - $348
New Front 215/45-17 Falken Azenis RT-615K 45R R17 Tires - $322
New Rear 245/45-17 Falken Azenis RT-615K 45R R17 Tires - $338

I have numerous Rodney Dickman parts, both installed on the car, and new in boxes. I also have NOS OEM and new reproduction parts for the T-Tops, and other things as well. If you're keeping track, there are enough costs just in this list to match the asking price, and I honestly didn't list everything. I STILL didn't list any labor costs to do the swap or auto to manual conversion, or the engine assembly. We are now sitting at about $25K of mostly parts cost.

With this, I am going to rest my case for the value of the car / build. Any additional questions can be directed to me personally. I would like to thank everyone for allowing me to actually make my point, and not repeating the drama from the other thread. I would also like to thank the people that reached out to me in PM to show their support.

Michael

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-05-2015).]

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Report this Post03-05-2015 07:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for revinSend a Private Message to revinEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

[This message has been edited by revin (edited 03-05-2015).]

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Report this Post03-06-2015 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I intended to mention a few things, but forgot.

The cradle had a POR15 treatment, as did the engine bay.

I had all new ss brake lines and hoses installed.

The headlights are the higher level HID kit that TLG sold. There's an uninstalled set of HID reverse lights as well which weren't used because of the custom tail lights.

After looking at all the stuff in my garage, and deciding I need to get rid of as much stuff as possible, I'm going to include the stereo system in the sale. This consists of an Alpine head unit and amps, Polk speakers, and Pioneer subs. I don't have anything else to put them in and there's no point holding on to them.

Aside from one seal, all the T-Top seals were replaced with NOS seals when I bought the car.

I still have an InfiniteWill trunk seal that's uninstalled, as well as new reproduction inner and outer dew wipes.

I have some extra mod stuff if someone wants to go that route, RX-8 mirrors, Mustang and Firebird vents, etc.

I think that's most of it. Have a good weekend everyone.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-07-2015).]

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Report this Post03-07-2015 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've had a steady level of interest, and a common question asked, so I'm answering it in the first post.
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Report this Post03-08-2015 04:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroVANClick Here to Email fieroVANSend a Private Message to fieroVANEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You got a PM .
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Report this Post03-08-2015 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroVAN:

You got a PM .


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Report this Post03-09-2015 05:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Shipping seems like it's going to be an obstacle for people, especially on the west coast. I'm not sure why rates are higher now than they were a couple of years ago, when gas was significantly more expensive. If this is the case, and the shipping is cost prohibitive, I'll consider going to get the car and having it shipped from here in TX. I'm sure something can be worked out one way or the other.
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Report this Post03-12-2015 04:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Recent emails / pm's returned. I got hit with some kind of respiratory bug, so I've been kind of looped up. Please be patient if it takes me a day or so to get back to anyone.
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Report this Post03-12-2015 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bradley JayClick Here to Email Bradley JaySend a Private Message to Bradley JayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Had no idea you were selling the thing. I never had an opportunity to meet you and see the car myself. Hopefully you find a buyer!
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Report this Post03-12-2015 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bradley Jay:

Had no idea you were selling the thing. I never had an opportunity to meet you and see the car myself. Hopefully you find a buyer!


Yeah this is neither how I envisioned things going, nor will I look back fondly on this decision. If it doesn't sell I'll make sure to get in touch with you so you can come see it.
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Report this Post03-13-2015 04:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Added VIN to first post
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Report this Post03-16-2015 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Up we go. This will remain for sale until the end of April. At that point, I will change my focus to finishing it. If I finish it, and end up selling it as a complete car with no work needed, the price will increase significantly. If I'd rather keep it at that point, so be it. For now, this is still the only time anyone will ever be able to buy this level of swap, with these parts, for this cost.
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Report this Post03-20-2015 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
TTT Car is coming back to Houston soon.
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Report this Post03-28-2015 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post03-29-2015 02:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bigformulaSend a Private Message to bigformulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what part of georgia is the car in?
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mptighe
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Report this Post03-29-2015 05:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by bigformula:

what part of georgia is the car in?


Danielsville outside of Atlanta.
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Tha Driver
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Report this Post03-29-2015 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tha DriverClick Here to visit Tha Driver's HomePageSend a Private Message to Tha DriverEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Nearer Commerce, 10 miles off of I-85.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Custom Fiberglass Parts
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mptighe
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Report this Post03-30-2015 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looks like the car may be sold, pending payment. I'll update either way once things are finalized. I'll likely have a few parts for sale soon if the sale goes through. The car hopefully will be going to a new home soon.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 03-30-2015).]

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mptighe
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Report this Post03-31-2015 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Buyer assures me payment is on its way. Looks like this is a done deal.
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mptighe
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Report this Post04-02-2015 05:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Payment received, car is sold. Thank you everyone that showed interest.
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mptighe
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Report this Post05-30-2015 01:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mptigheSend a Private Message to mptigheEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a quick update. Between what the car sold for, what the mecham scoops sold for, and what the firebird interior sold for, I actually made slightly over my sale price ($8k). For the guys who had no purpose but to grief the car, the build, the sale, me, etc you can stick it and twist it sideways. It's because of people like you that this community is turning into a ghost town.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 05-30-2015).]

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Report this Post05-30-2015 02:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareClick Here to Email MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

Just a quick update. Between what the car sold for, what the mecham scoops sold for, and what the firebird interior sold for, I actually made slightly over my sale price ($8k). For the guys who had no purpose but to grief the car, the build, the sale, me, etc you can stick it and twist it sideways. It's because of people like you that this community is turning into a ghost town.




Actually the reason the Forum is turning into a ghost town is because a large amount have went to FB for there Fiero fix and questions. I know I have an only stop by here every other day or so...Glad u finally got what ur where asking but to be fair about it u did not get 8K for the car like u was asking cause as it sat it wasn't worth 8K. U got a certain amount for the car then made up the rest with selling off other stuff that didn't go with the car. Either way u sold off ur Fiero stuff and hopefully it will be the last Fiero u buy to tear apart for nothing like the others in the past. I hope u find a new hobby and won't be hanging around..That may sound bad but it's just my opinion on the matter..

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