Hey guys, I am trying to find the thread where I'd asked a somewhat similar question, but I can't seem to find it. It was a post within someone else's post that I think I asked it. So I'll ask a bigger version here. For my daughter's car... a 1985 Fiero 2m4 SE 5-Speed. I want her to have a car that handles well, but also isn't too "jarring" for the road.


QUESTION 1:
Back in the late 90s, when my car's (87 Fiero SE / V6) suspension was still decent, the ride was not great. I had the Y99 / Rally Suspension, and I had KYBs. The springs sucked... just to be honest, and the KYB shocks and struts were hugely aggressive. You'd feel every single pothole right up your spine... and as a fit 18-20 something, it didn't really bother me, but it wasn't great for the handling or the experience (which was still awesome, mind you). I'm trying to make her car (again, the 85 SE 2m4 5-Speed) more like a German-car "feeling" of the early 2000s (Jetta / Passat). What this is, basically... is STIFF springs, with progressive shocks. So THIS is what I'd like to do to my daughter's car:

- WS6 Springs
- Monroe Shocks

Do you see any problem with this? And for that matter, what are your thoughts on the Monroe struts at the Fiero Store. Are they decent? I'm looking for shocks that have some give, but when pushed tighten up (e.g. progressive). Also, with respect to the WS6 springs. I was able to source a set of really good WS6 springs from the rear of a low-mileage 87 GT that had been wrecked in the front like a decade ago. The springs are ridiculously clean, NMY-coded, and have 60k miles on them. Problem is, I only found the rear springs. I'm still looking for a set of front springs, but the rear springs will do for now since we're on that. Anyone know where I can get a set of front low-mileage WS6 springs?


QUESTION 2:
Another thing I want to do is make sure she doesn't feel every vibration on the car. But... I also know that replacing bushings is sooo much easier when you're replacing them with polyurethane. Someone told me there's a "perfect" combination of using polyurethane and rubber bushings on the car to maximize handling, but not too badly and negatively effect interior vibration. Here's what I'm thinking...
- Cradle Bushings : Polyurethane
- Rear Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Lower Control Arms : Rubber
- Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane
- End-links : Zero-Lash


Did I get this right? Or is there some other combination (poly down low, rubber up top)?


Thank you!!!

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Hey guys, I am trying to find the thread where I'd asked a somewhat similar question, but I can't seem to find it. It was a post within someone else's post that I think I asked it. So I'll ask a bigger version here. For my daughter's car... a 1985 Fiero 2m4 SE 5-Speed. I want her to have a car that handles well, but also isn't too "jarring" for the road. QUESTION 1: Back in the late 90s, when my car's (87 Fiero SE / V6) suspension was still decent, the ride was not great. I had the Y99 / Rally Suspension, and I had KYBs. The springs sucked... just to be honest, and the KYB shocks and struts were hugely aggressive. You'd feel every single pothole right up your spine... and as a fit 18-20 something, it didn't really bother me, but it wasn't great for the handling or the experience (which was still awesome, mind you). I'm trying to make her car (again, the 85 SE 2m4 5-Speed) more like a German-car "feeling" of the early 2000s (Jetta / Passat). What this is, basically... is STIFF springs, with progressive shocks. So THIS is what I'd like to do to my daughter's car: - WS6 Springs - Monroe Shocks Do you see any problem with this? And for that matter, what are your thoughts on the Monroe struts at the Fiero Store. Are they decent? I'm looking for shocks that have some give, but when pushed tighten up (e.g. progressive). Also, with respect to the WS6 springs. I was able to source a set of really good WS6 springs from the rear of a low-mileage 87 GT that had been wrecked in the front like a decade ago. The springs are ridiculously clean, NMY-coded, and have 60k miles on them. Problem is, I only found the rear springs. I'm still looking for a set of front springs, but the rear springs will do for now since we're on that. Anyone know where I can get a set of front low-mileage WS6 springs? QUESTION 2: Another thing I want to do is make sure she doesn't feel every vibration on the car. But... I also know that replacing bushings is sooo much easier when you're replacing them with polyurethane. Someone told me there's a "perfect" combination of using polyurethane and rubber bushings on the car to maximize handling, but not too badly and negatively effect interior vibration. Here's what I'm thinking... - Cradle Bushings : Polyurethane - Rear Control Arms : Rubber - Front Lower Control Arms : Rubber - Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane - End-links : Zero-Lash Did I get this right? Or is there some other combination (poly down low, rubber up top)? Thank you!!!

You might want to check The code list on your daughter's car, I compared an 84se to my 85gt, and I think we had the same springs, might be different in 85se, as 84se and Indy were essentially the GT of 84, my dad's Fiero has y99 springs, and the only bushings that have been replaced are the lower front control arm bushings, with poly. His rides not incredibly well, the whole rear shifts around a lot, and just from the 4 front lower poly bushings, there is a lot of vibration and noise, and they squeak like you wouldn't believe, he also has kyb front, original rear, and the ride is a combination of vague/floaty and loud and transmits all the little bumps. Not very good.

My Fiero has kyb front, Monroe back, poly everywhere(but done with a trick from this forum, wrapping the inner sleeve in Teflon tape, no squeaks), and the original ws6 springs, I feel basically everything, bigger bumps through the shocks, all small stuff through the bushings, I like it, it handles really well. I also have a rear swaybar added that makes it feel better on the road, but has yet to be tested at the end of grip, poly links in the front and rubber links in the rear, to make the rear less effective(installed zero lash front and poly rear with rubber rear mounts this winter, no tests yet). Turn in is quite good, and on gravel and normal roads, I have never experienced oversteer, the last part was solid cradle bushings, which I have already installed this winter, so is untested, but that is the last thing that was shifting around.

I think new rubber bushings is going to be what you want, all around, if you don't like all the little vibrations and potential squeaks, new rubber is going to be so much better then old originals, just doesn't transmit the tiny vibrations. either solid or poly engine cradle bushings, as that doesn't transmit vibration, it just shifts a lot, and Monroe shocks all around, in terms of handling, my front kyb and rear Monroe feel no different, both very good, but the front transmits more vibration. also have not tested the solid end links, but I installed them in the front(poly before), and they look good.

If I'm recalling correctly, I think generally it is recommended to put poly in the rear, all the time, and either poly or solid cradle bushings, as the rear shifts a lot with rubber, the front double wishbone design is pretty good with rubber, I don't know how much extra you would feel with poly rear, but considering the rear is extremely easy to redo without compressing springs, you can try poly, and change it out later, but stick with quality new rubber in the front.

1. Use OE Springs w/ Gabriel or Monroe best, likely only version, Gas Shocks & Struts. This will be stiff hitting largish bumps, speed bumps, RR tracks, but can drive w/o rattling you teeth otherwise.

Any Springs for GT will be very stiff, more so WS6, because rear springs expect heavier engine.

2. All C-arms = rubber. do not mix "Front Upper Control Arms : Polyurethane"

No point using "End-links : Zero-Lash" If your kid or you even have notice this is "best." Suggest stop drinking koolaid. I doubt you could even tell polly for rubber for sway bar ends or centers except noise polly get older.

Only reason for polly is cradle because Doesn't move to make noise even if installs w/o silicon grease. Lube there just keeps out water etc cause rust.

see cave, https://web.archive.org/web...erocave/bushings.htm & rest of section.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave

Just my opinion, others may have a different one but to me, all engine related bushings should remain rubber including cradle bushings and dogbone but the suspension components can be either rubber or poly. Keeping the engine area all rubber will take care of engine vibration noise.

Some random stuff...

I think all the 84-87 GT springs were WS6, by default, even if it's not on the label.
I have heard that KYBs tend to be harsh.

I have 88s, so take this info for what it's worth.
I have Monroe Sensatracs and full poly (except for trailing links) on both of my cars. I also have 45 series 17s. The ride is a bit rough, but not too bad for my 66 YO posterior.
One of my cars has 86 GT springs in the front, cut down by 1.25 coils.
The other has stock 88 coupe springs in the front, cut down by one coil.
One car has 88 front springs in the rear (I had to build upper perches for them) and the other has guru's coilovers.
Both cars have poly sway bar end link bushings, where the stock ones crumbled. All sway bar bushings are original rubber.

Recognize that the shorter the sidewall, the more vibration that will be transferred to the car.
I might suggest that 15" or 16" wheels, with 60 or 55 series tires will help to cushion the road shocks.
Narrow front wheels and/or higher offset will also help with low speed steering. (15" 88 fronts come to mind. Those wheels look great on bumperpad cars, and are still fairly common.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-05-2024).]

Using ws6 springs will probably give the handling and ride the OP is after, like he said he wants stiff springs, looser shocks, but it might increase the ride height, especially in conjunction with the gas charged shocks/struts, not necessarily a bad thing for a first car that isn't entirely performance oriented, as for the swaybar end links, it may not make a noticeable difference, as for no point using them, they'll last way longer then rubber, look better, sound better, and do make a technical difference, for the same reason you replace spark plugs every so often and gap them properly, sure they'll run with incorrect gaps, and you may not notice a difference, but you might, and you might have reduced fuel economy, etc. a lot of little things add up to a big change, zero lash end links along with new rubber bushings, poly cradle bushings, new shocks, will end up being a very noticeable improvement.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the replies!

Trying to put into perspective of course, this is my daughter's first car... and I want her to be able to enjoy the Fiero for all that it is... while at the same time... being as safe as possible, but also hoping to tamper her expectations. Her entire life, she's only known us to have SUVs. Matter of fact, she'd literally never seen my personal Fiero in person before her Gen-Z-Garage video where she went to visit it in the storage unit, haha.

I know my 87 Fiero rode like **** when it got older. It had all rubber bushings, and KYBs... and man, it sucked. Compare that to my 85 GT 4-Speed which had WS6 springs and felt awesome... but the shocks were totally shot so it pitched heavily in turns (hahah...) and I sold it before replacing the shocks. Probably the best handling (feeling) car I ever drove was my 84 Fiero 2m4 SE... which as 85 Fiero GT here said... it had WS6 springs, and I replaced them with some aftermarket front springs and it ran awesome.

I've since replaced ALL the bushings in my 87 Fiero with polyurethane... it looks awesome...




BUT... I've never actually driven it like this. The date in the picture is literally the last time this car was even at a house. It's been in storage since then, and I just never finished it. I have no idea what to expect, and I'll probably re-do all of this when I eventually get to my own car.


So if I understand correctly... All rubber in the front is good, poly for the cradle bushings is good (I have a black set of cradle bushings), and then a new rubber dog bone (which I've got), and then finally... poly for the rear control arms is OK?


One thing I remember with my 87 Fiero... is I'd go over a groove or a ridge in the road, and my back end would get all squirrely... i think this is what we called "bump steer." To be fair though, my suspension at the time was needing a little bit of work at that point. I want the car to be stable, handle safely, but also not be jarring. My daughter has only known SUVs... as this is all we've ever owned/driven since she was born. The only other car is my grandfather's 2002 Crown Victoria LX... which I inherited just before she was born, and that has a lofty suspension.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: So if I understand correctly... All rubber in the front is good, poly for the cradle bushings is good (I have a black set of cradle bushings), and then a new rubber dog bone (which I've got), and then finally... poly for the rear control arms is OK? One thing I remember with my 87 Fiero... is I'd go over a groove or a ridge in the road, and my back end would get all squirrely... i think this is what we called "bump steer." To be fair though, my suspension at the time was needing a little bit of work at that point. I want the car to be stable, handle safely, but also not be jarring. My daughter has only known SUVs... as this is all we've ever owned/driven since she was born. The only other car is my grandfather's 2002 Crown Victoria LX... which I inherited just before she was born, and that has a lofty suspension.

Yes pretty much, rubber for the dogbone (being a manual, could probably do poly, but there isn't much of a reason to, other then looking better) rubber in front, poly for cradle, your choice of rubber or poly for rear control arms, rubber will be gentler (but not as much of a different as in the front, as there is more mass in the rear to dampen the vibrations), but poly will reduce the squirrely back end, I know that for a fact because my Fiero when I got it handled just like my dad's (very loose in the back, can feel everything shifting as one turns, and I have basically upgraded everything while my dad's has stayed the same, so I can basically compare mine now to what it was, the poly rear control arm bushings helped the squirellyness a lot, even with rubber cradle mounts, I've since installed the metal cradle mounts, but haven't tested, as it's winter, but that was the last part that was moving unpredictably in turns/rough surfaces, poly should be good for that to keep vibrations super low but have it handle better. The difference between mine that still had original cradle bushings and my dad's is very different, to the point where when I last drive his (Christmas Eve) I felt I needed to take corners slower, and the car was occasionally the limit instead of the speed signs.

Like I said the rear is really really easy to change, so you can use poly first, then if you don't like it, can use rubber later, but if you use poly in the control arms, you must wrap the inner metal sleeve with a single layer of Teflon tape, don't know why it works, only that it does work, my dad's has only the front lower poly, without the Teflon tape, and it squeaked really badly right from the first day with those bushings, all my poly front bushings with the Teflon tape have had 13,000 hard km on them, in the rain, in the heat, and have had no real squeaks (one small small squeak when in the rain, probably just a small part that was missing Teflon tape)

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT:Yes pretty much, rubber for the dogbone (being a manual, could probably do poly, but there isn't much of a reason to, other then looking better) rubber in front, poly for cradle, your choice of rubber or poly for rear control arms, rubber will be gentler (but not as much of a different as in the front, as there is more mass in the rear to dampen the vibrations), but poly will reduce the squirrely back end, I know that for a fact because my Fiero when I got it handled just like my dad's (very loose in the back, can feel everything shifting as one turns, and I have basically upgraded everything while my dad's has stayed the same, so I can basically compare mine now to what it was, the poly rear control arm bushings helped the squirellyness a lot, even with rubber cradle mounts, I've since installed the metal cradle mounts, but haven't tested, as it's winter, but that was the last part that was moving unpredictably in turns/rough surfaces, poly should be good for that to keep vibrations super low but have it handle better. The difference between mine that still had original cradle bushings and my dad's is very different, to the point where when I last drive his (Christmas Eve) I felt I needed to take corners slower, and the car was occasionally the limit instead of the speed signs. Like I said the rear is really really easy to change, so you can use poly first, then if you don't like it, can use rubber later, but if you use poly in the control arms, you must wrap the inner metal sleeve with a single layer of Teflon tape, don't know why it works, only that it does work, my dad's has only the front lower poly, without the Teflon tape, and it squeaked really badly right from the first day with those bushings, all my poly front bushings with the Teflon tape have had 13,000 hard km on them, in the rain, in the heat, and have had no real squeaks (one small small squeak when in the rain, probably just a small part that was missing Teflon tape)

Thanks 85... now, when you say Teflon tape... are you just talking about the stuff I use on pipe threads? Do you just wrap the entire poly core with this tape before you install it. Or are you talking about some kind of larger teflon tape that you buy that's already the size of the bushing?


Thanks!!!

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Thanks 85... now, when you say Teflon tape... are you just talking about the stuff I use on pipe threads? Do you just wrap the entire poly core with this tape before you install it. Or are you talking about some kind of larger teflon tape that you buy that's already the size of the bushing? Thanks!!!

Yes, the common type used on pipe fittings, poly bushings come with the poly bushings itself and the metal tube that goes inside, wrap the metal tube in a spiral of Teflon tape extending it around the ends of the tube, grease it up with the sticky grease included with the bushings, and twist the metal core into the bushing, if you twist it and do it right, it will go in smoothly without the Teflon tape bunching up much, the tolerances are tight, so the tape cannot overlap itself, it doesn't have to cover 100% of the surface of the metal, leave like a half a mm gap between layers as it spirals around the metal tube. When twisting it in, twist it opposite to the direction of the Teflon tape, as if you are using a drill bit or screw in reverse, that way the tape won't bunch up. I know there's a thread on here somewhere, and probably a YouTube video too, but hopefully I explained it well enough.

I converted my 85 SE V6 to poly bushings back in 2008.....squeeked badly, and a lot of impact/vibration...converted it back to (new) rubber bushings- much better!

A friend of mine races a 1966 Mustang w/Roush racing engine (750 hp) and 310 mm wide tires against modified Z06s and Vipers...He has a shop where he manufatures custom A-arms and suspensions for old Mustangs.

He stopped selling poly bushings because they did not improve handling much but did transmit impacts and cause squeeking...and those poly bushings last only a short time before they start deflecting;

[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 02-06-2024).]

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: Ws6 is just the performance suspension package, stiffer springs, stiffer shocks, stiffer bushings, offered in every year, 84se has ws6, as do all year GTs, in 1988 ws6 meant more because it was an entirely different suspension altogether, but all other years has ws6 as an option on the rpo code sheet

Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option.

Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts.

Example: My "Sport" has same duke w/ "highway" gearing AT as others but OE stiff springs & will rattle your teeth very often. Got "worse" rebuilding suspension w/ Moog Bushings & Gabriel "Premium" Gas shocks/struts. Got even "worse" by switching 14" to 15" wheels because requires lower profile tires, 195/70-14 to 205/60-15. How bad can it be? Several Dash Cams I've use in it often trips the Recording Lock (to block normal deletion) hitting many bumps & that's hardest G setting in the menus. When the D-cam have smaller SD cards will fill the whole thing w/ locked videos fast requiring to manually deletion or reformatting in a few weeks.

I rarely drive the Fiero > 50 miles at 1 time even when force to drive by an old job so doesn't bother me much. But The Kid & most friends will soon Hate a Hard Ride like that. Worse if have to deal w/ many Speed Bumps etc because that will "Activate" any "road sensing" shocks & struts making the suspension way harder to the point many will think they "Bottom" the car but did not. Far Worse, because most can't tell if you "bottom" the car now... Will actually bottom out, likely sooner not later, & likely break things w/o noticing until leaving you stranded on the highway.

That's ignoring Duke w/ AT in Drive will "be a problem" at stop lights etc too for many people. Duke "Noise" & AT keeps the Dog bone in Compression that can shake the whole car. More so w/ Polly Bones & 87-88 single trans mount. See cave, Torque Strut

quote Originally posted by theogre: Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option. Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts. Example: My "Sport" has same duke w/ "highway" gearing AT as others but OE stiff springs & will rattle your teeth very often. Got "worse" rebuilding suspension w/ Moog Bushings & Gabriel "Premium" Gas shocks/struts. Got even "worse" by switching 14" to 15" wheels because requires lower profile tires, 195/70-14 to 205/60-15. How bad can it be? Several Dash Cams I've use in it often trips the Recording Lock (to block normal deletion) hitting many bumps & that's hardest G setting in the menus. When the D-cam have smaller SD cards will fill the whole thing w/ locked videos fast requiring to manually deletion or reformatting in a few weeks. I rarely drive the Fiero > 50 miles at 1 time even when force to drive by an old job so doesn't bother me much. But The Kid & most friends will soon Hate a Hard Ride like that. Worse if have to deal w/ many Speed Bumps etc because that will "Activate" any "road sensing" shocks & struts making the suspension way harder to the point many will think they "Bottom" the car but did not. Far Worse, because most can't tell if you "bottom" the car now... Will actually bottom out, likely sooner not later, & likely break things w/o noticing until leaving you stranded on the highway. That's ignoring Duke w/ AT in Drive will "be a problem" at stop lights etc too for many people. Duke "Noise" & AT keeps the Dog bone in Compression that can shake the whole car. More so w/ Polly Bones & 87-88 single trans mount. See cave, Torque Strut

Normal driving on normal roads with new, old, or upgraded suspension components will not break anything, or cause it to wear any quicker, the Fiero is a stiff car to start with, that is the point, if you go over a speed bump at 80, and break something, that's your fault, not the cars, your description goes a little overboard on the ride quality, dash cams may not like it, but it is nothing to complain about unless you are above 40 and have osteoporosis. I would say that it is the opposite with young people, as every car they have been in is so smooth, that it makes the ride more unique and special. The subject of this post has a manual, so the dogbone doesn't matter, for "AJ" poly bushings are likely not wanted in the control arms, nor are kyb shocks, but Monroe shocks, new rubber bushings, and poly cradle/dogbone are going to give a good ride that will be enjoyable, without being jarring.

Edited for formatting.

[This message has been edited by 1985 Fiero GT (edited 02-06-2024).]

quote Originally posted by cvxjet:I converted my 85 SE V6 to poly bushings back in 2008.....squeeked badly, and a lot of impact/vibration...converted it back to (new) rubber bushings- much better! A friend of mine races a 1966 Mustang w/Roush racing engine (750 hp) and 310 mm wide tires against modified Z06s and Vipers...He has a shop where he manufatures custom A-arms and suspensions for old Mustangs. He stopped selling poly bushings because they did not improve handling much but did transmit impacts and cause squeeking...and those poly bushings last only a short time before they start deflecting;

Yeah, that is pretty brutal... I will probably re-do my own suspension that I did 13 years ago when I eventually get my car into the garage. For my daughter, I think the ONLY things I'm going to use poly for is the cradle, and the rear control arms. As 85 GT said, they're easy enough to remove... but the squirrelly rear-end is something that always irked me about the 84-87 Fieros. I'm going to use new rubber on the end-links too...

quote Originally posted by theogre:Worse... Fiero & most others w/ "WS6" is mostly Hype because Some Other Models had all those parts. IOW GM use many RPO like WS6 only as a Marketing "Scam" w/ Bare Minimum if any changes just because most Trade Rags fooled most of the readers saying you want this option. Other then Spring Codes saying WS6 spring are "stiffer" then others (See cave, RPO list w/ all spring codes.) Fiero has Nothing Else to add to WS6 or other "performance" RPO. Same for Fiero "Sport" "SE" "Formula" & even GT packages. Oh Some might get a bit heavier sway bar or have second bar in rear. But the rest for Fiero is all the same w/ crap OE Shocks & Struts.

I view WS6 as a means of ensuring that I have the "better" suspension package. The only time I ever remember WS6 being considered a marketing thing, was on the 1998-2002 Pontiac TransAms where it would say "WS6 Equipped," on the rear bumper. But the other Pontiacs that I've had have also had WS6 on them, and it was never something that was really advertised. My 81 TransAm had the WS6 package, but outside of seeing it on the build sheet on top of the gas tank, I don't remember it ever being a marketing thing.

Funny though, 85 GT was right... I just looked at my daughter's RPO sticker... and guess what I see...




Ok... now this is odd... why does my daughter's car have two different sets of springs? Take a look... am I seeing what I'm seeing?

When I compare it to your (Ogre's page): https://web.archive.org/web...fierocave/rpo_id.htm

I see the following RPO codes:



WS6 suspension package, which you guys see.

And then (per Ogre's page):
6xx LF Spring
7xx RF Spring
8xx LR Spring
9xx RR Spring

6JH = Stiffest (4) / Left Front
7JH = Stiffest (4) / Right Front
8YL = Stiff (3) / Left Rear
9YM = Stiffest (4) / Right Rear

Why is the left rear spring a different spring rate than all the other springs on the car? Is this to make the car more comfortable? I'm at a loss for understanding this. To add to this, if I bought a set of NYM springs off eBay, is it possible that one of them is also not exactly NYM? This is really weird...

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT:Normal driving on normal roads with new, old, or upgraded suspension components will not break anything, or cause it to wear any quicker, the Fiero is a stiff car to start with, that is the point, if you go over a speed bump at 80, and break something, that's your fault, not the cars, your description goes a little overboard on the ride quality, dash cams may not like it, but it is nothing to complain about unless you are above 40 and have osteoporosis. I would say that it is the opposite with young people, as every car they have been in is so smooth, that it makes the ride more unique and special. The subject of this post has a manual, so the dogbone doesn't matter, for "AJ" poly bushings are likely not wanted in the control arms, nor are kyb shocks, but Monroe shocks, new rubber bushings, and poly cradle/dogbone are going to give a good ride that will be enjoyable, without being jarring.

Yeah, it's very true... her experience with the car will be much different than it is for me at my age of 45 (no back problems or anything). When I was younger, I loved the feeling of a stiffer suspension. I did NOT like it though, even when I was 18/19 that... whenever I hit a pothole, that it felt like the car was falling into a pit. This was all after I installed the KYBs though... and it was with my Y99 suspension package (whatever springs those were). I'd compare it though, to the hardtop no-optioned 1985 Fiero GT 4-Speed that I owned (which was a quick as **** car)... had WS6 suspension, 4.10:1 final drive 4-Speed swapped in from an 84 2m4 SE, and had the heads decked (really because it had warped previously), which increased the compression to like 9.2:1. I think, if I recall, I bought it from either David Radabaugh, or Darrell Morse... and had it shipped down from Ohio. The thing was insanely quick off the line. If I dropped the clutch from a dead stop... it never actually gained traction... it would just do a burn-out indefinitely without ever applying the brake. It did this with brand new BFGoodrich T/A Comps. Anyway... the shocks were shot, but the springs were good. I remember hitting potholes, even drove over a curb and an entire bush (long story), and it wasn't jarring at all... it was a very smooth ride. The only issue of course was on cornering, the car would pitch over because the shocks were totally gone.

She doesn't know what she wants, because she's never driven a car. But I expect the ride for her to be high-sprung, but not jarring.

So I'll take everyone's advice... all rubber in the front. Poly in the rear control arms with Teflon tape. Poly cradle mounts, and rubber engine / stabilizer mounts.


Thanks!!!

That's weird, my 85 gt has the correct rear springs, it definitely wouldn't have been done intentionally or for comfort, I'm guessing it's a typo/mistake somehow, I don't know how that got past Q.C. any springs you buy online should be normal, 4 correct springs, I'm baffled, is an 85, so it should have the same spring codes as mine, yet it doesn't. Weird. Yes y99 springs with even just front kyb shocks are not very good, on top of making the car ride about an inch lower after all these years, the ws6 springs with KYB still transmit a lot of "road feel" but the increased spring rate makes potholes manageable, I live in New Brunswick, in an area where the roads are not maintained (we literally had a place where they needed to install a bridge, because a flood cut a 50ft deep groove where the road was) and now we have a place where the road is sinking and had created a ramp, so if you go over it at the speed limit, your car is almost an airplane.

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: That's weird, my 85 gt has the correct rear springs, it definitely wouldn't have been done intentionally or for comfort, I'm guessing it's a typo/mistake somehow, I don't know how that got past Q.C. any springs you buy online should be normal, 4 correct springs, I'm baffled, is an 85, so it should have the same spring codes as mine, yet it doesn't. Weird. Yes y99 springs with even just front kyb shocks are not very good, on top of making the car ride about an inch lower after all these years, the ws6 springs with KYB still transmit a lot of "road feel" but the increased spring rate makes potholes manageable, I live in New Brunswick, in an area where the roads are not maintained (we literally had a place where they needed to install a bridge, because a flood cut a 50ft deep groove where the road was) and now we have a place where the road is sinking and had created a ramp, so if you go over it at the speed limit, your car is almost an airplane.

Ok, I'm glad to hear that... so I'm not crazy. Yeah... I find it totally odd too... I wonder if it's a typo or if it's legitimate. I wondered if maybe they did this because it's a 5-Speed and it's lighter on one side and doesn't need as much spring stiffness there? Who knows.

I just got my set of low mileage NYM springs from Arizona. No rust, 36k miles on them, I'll swap out both rear springs with the lower mileage ones. No loss there... at least I can be sure (for the most part) that the replacement springs will be a matched set... not to mention they have 100k fewer miles on them.

I'll leave the stock front springs, and just sand them down and paint them.


Thanks!!!

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Ok, I'm glad to hear that... so I'm not crazy. Yeah... I find it totally odd too... I wonder if it's a typo or if it's legitimate. I wondered if maybe they did this because it's a 5-Speed and it's lighter on one side and doesn't need as much spring stiffness there? Who knows. I just got my set of low mileage NYM springs from Arizona. No rust, 36k miles on them, I'll swap out both rear springs with the lower mileage ones. No loss there... at least I can be sure (for the most part) that the replacement springs will be a matched set... not to mention they have 100k fewer miles on them. I'll leave the stock front springs, and just sand them down and paint them. Thanks!!!

Yeah, no problem, I'm not sure, but somewhere I recall reading or hearing that the springs are color coded somehow, like maybe a stripe of paint somewhere on them that corresponds to the spring code, I don't have any more information, but if both springs have a spot of paint that is the same, then it would probably just be a typo.

The RPO label can be wrong. More so if was entered manually.

GM had stickers w/ code on the springs but fall off after years rarely to see after 30+ years.

mark 1 or both so you know where live then very carefully look side by side to see if any dif.

Strut springs & some others are Progressive Springs.

Standard Spring Rates Do Not apply to them. IOW Throw out measure spring rate using a scale & ruler.

You can have 2 or more Springs that have Same Basic Rate but behave way different because how they are made.
Because Distance between turns & diameter of each turn of coil matters.

quote Originally posted by 1985 Fiero GT: Yeah, no problem, I'm not sure, but somewhere I recall reading or hearing that the springs are color coded somehow, like maybe a stripe of paint somewhere on them that corresponds to the spring code, I don't have any more information, but if both springs have a spot of paint that is the same, then it would probably just be a typo.

The "new" (used) replacement springs came in today, so I'll just use those since they so low mileage and in such great shape. They still have the paper tag on them too... though I didn't check if it said NYM, but that's effectively what I bought (auction said for a pair of NYM springs from a WS6 Fiero). I'll check it tomorrow, they were just a little dusty so I didn't take them out of the box.

quote Originally posted by theogre: The RPO label can be wrong. More so if was entered manually. GM had stickers w/ code on the springs but fall off after years rarely to see after 30+ years. mark 1 or both so you know where live then very carefully look side by side to see if any dif. Strut springs & some others are Progressive Springs. Standard Spring Rates Do Not apply to them. IOW Throw out measure spring rate using a scale & ruler. You can have 2 or more Springs that have Same Basic Rate but behave way different because how they are made. Because Distance between turns & diameter of each turn of coil matters.

I think it's actually kind of cool. It's rare (at least for me) to see a screw-up like this from GM!

I'll probably have my daughter make a whole section of one of her videos on this, because it's super interesting...

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I think it's actually kind of cool. It's rare (at least for me) to see a screw-up like this from GM! I'll probably have my daughter make a whole section of one of her videos on this, because it's super interesting...

Another thing that she could do, maybe along with the spring typo as an episode of its own, is fix the temperature gauge wiring, gm wired the gauge into the bulb test wiring and the warning bulb into the gauge wiring, so when you turn the key to start, the gauge pegs all the way over, which can damage it, and the point of the test is to show that the warning bulb works, which it doesn't. It is easy to fix, swap the 2 wires on the temp sender, and swap 2 wires in the dash, and the bulb gets lit up, but the gauge and bulb continue working as they are supposed to.
Also, will your daughter be keeping the stock shifter, I upgraded to the shorter 1984 shifter, it looks good, better then the 85-88 longer shifters, increases effort a little bit, but not as much as the old cables (shorter shifter+new cables has the same effort as long shifter and old cables) and it is more precise, feels less sloppy, and Rodney sells a real leather boot with a metal base plate that is really secure.

quote 1985 Fiero GT: Rodney sells a real leather boot with a metal base plate that is really secure.

FYI From Rodney's Site:

quote 1985-1988 4 and 5 speed boots are OUT OF STOCK. I will not be making anymore. Only the 84 is available: The 84 is a 1" shorter boot (because the 1984 had a 1" shorter shifter than the 85-88's)

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Original Owner of a Silver '88 GT
Under 'Production Refurbishment' @ 136k Miles

quote Originally posted by Vintage-Nut:

Precisely, I was talking about then potentially changing their shifter to the 84 shorter shifter, which has several benefits including Rodney's real leather shift boot with metal retaining base.

It would be easier to achieve better handling and more comfortable ride by buying her a used Honda.....🤣🤣

quote Originally posted by olejoedad: It would be easier to achieve better handling and more comfortable ride by buying her a used Honda.....🤣🤣

Where would the fun be in that!

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: She doesn't know what she wants, because she's never driven a car.

Rebuild everything to stock rubber specification.

Once your daughter has driven the car, she will be able to form her own opinion.

If the car is pre-modified by the time she drives it, then she is deprived of the chance to identify weaknesses of the stock car, and then to make the car into her own using her own judgement.

For someone that has gone 100% polyurethane on his own car: DON'T DO IT !!

Keep the suspension as stock as possible with just replacing the tired old bushings with new ones, and put in new shock absorbers as well.

One person above mentioned engine mounts and the dogbone. Rubber as well, unless you want your teeth to rattle!
(Poly isn't necessary below 400HP!)

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"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France! @turboslugfiero
https://youtu.be/hUzOAeyWLfM

Poly bushings have been around a long time and pre-date low profile tires (50 series and lower). At that time, the only way to tighten up the suspension and get less deflection was with bushings. Now we have options of 50, 40, and 30 series tires and using these will provide less overall deflection than poly bushings do.

In the next few weeks, I will be removing the poly from the lower front control arm of my 88 and going back to rubber.

The 84-87 front lower control arm sends the vast majority of lateral loads through a single bushing (the front one) and the rear bushing handles braking and road irregularity impacts.


This is very similar to the way most current cars have their front lower a-arms configured. Here is an example from a Grand Am:


Here is another from a Maxima:


BMW took the concept even further with replacing the lateral load bushing with a ball joint for zero deflection and left the rear bushing rubber. In this one, the rear of the control arm just sits in a rubber bushing cup.


If I was building an 84-87 car and wanted to maximize handling while maintaining good ride quality in the front, I would run a spherical bearing (like the ones Will offered) in the front bushing location and look at adapting a larger rubber bushing in the rear location.

I have Monroes in the back of my 86GT auto (so it probably has the heaviest ass of any Fiero).
I don't like how the rear bounces a bit (overshoots once on rebound) when going over bumps, but I don't know how old those Monroes are. They predate my 2010 ownership.
I have KYB in the front, they're fine, but they did lift the nose some vs the factory shocks.
I think my 84SE (which had the WS6 code) handled better, not sure how much of that is due to weight and how much due to condition of the suspension. After moving away from the hills though, I don't notice the car's limitations much anymore.


I'm not a suspension expert, but I suspect one advantage of strengthening the front bar with zero-lash+poly is that it would help encourage the car to understeer at lighter cornering loads (since the bar will start working sooner). This should mean it's more likely to understeer in the rain. This is usually safer, especially for an inexperienced driver, and it doesn't look quite as bad to the cops if they see it happen.

I don't know if poly in the rear control arms would shift the handling balance closer to oversteer, but if so, then countering with this mod to the front bar might be a good idea.