I like a "plusher" ride and will be installing new rubber bushings in the rear control arms and engine cradle as I rebuild my suspension. Is there any trick to installing these, should I use prothane grease like with poly? Can they be installed with a c-clamp? Most of the videos I see are how to do it with poly....
I like a "plusher" ride and will be installing new rubber bushings in the rear control arms and engine cradle as I rebuild my suspension. Is there any trick to installing these, should I use prothane grease like with poly? Can they be installed with a c-clamp? Most of the videos I see are how to do it with poly....
Greg
I would also like to read any responses... I went all poly, and not super thrilled. It was fine when I was 20, but now that I'm 45, the last thing I want is to feel every single pebble on the road. It also shakes the hell out of your car.
I would still recommend poly subframe bushings. You'll feel the motor a little bit more, but I think really the subframe should be solidly secure to the chassis. But I'm with you on the control arm bushings... I'm seriously considering re-doing my suspension again to swap in rubber bushings.
A) I went with metal bushings for the subframe- And there was not much difference in ride or engine vibration- This does create more rigidity in the car's frame.
B) A very good friend of mine runs a Mustang shop- but also works on other cars. his specialty is suspension- Coil-over front which allows smaller spring-towers for more engine room, while in back he has a Cantilever rear spring set-up that puts the Coil-overs in the trunk horizontally for easy adjustment.
He has a '66 Mustang with a Nascar racing V8 and 315 mm wide tires all around- raced it in the Ultimate Streetcar Challenger around the country- came in 13th, then 6th and finally 5th...Against PREPARED/MODIFIED Z06 Vettes and Dodge Vipers.
He grew up racing Midget cars....He has told me that he would NEVER recommend poly bushings- they don't give you much improvement- but they do go bad very quickly (Cold flow)
As far as replacing the bushings- I made spacers out of metal tubing to keep the A-arms from deflecting as I pressed the new bushings (With metal shells) into the arms
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 05-16-2023).]
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Rubber is meant to to stuck to the outer shell and inner sleeve. It is supposed to deform in shear as the shell rotates about the inner sleeve. There should not be any sliding action.
As there is no sliding action in a rubber bushing, there should be no grease applied.
In the rear control arms, I would probably leave the polyurethane. The weight of the car is supported by the struts; the rear control arm isn't involved in supporting the weight of the car as the front lower control arms do. I do not think there is much effect on ride quality with poly rear control arm bushings. I do think that avoiding rubber in the rear can make the rear feel less squirmy.
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Originally posted by cvxjet: He grew up racing Midget cars....He has told me that he would NEVER recommend poly bushings- they don't give you much improvement- but they do go bad very quickly (Cold flow)
I had a used Fiero cradle (with poly control arm bushings) with about 80000 km and 7 years of service. After all that, I unbolted the control arms to have a look, and everything was fine. The hole in the poly wasn't wallowed out, and the control arm pivoted like it should.
I put the used poly back in service, even though things were taken apart and I had the chance to replace it.
Maybe the cold flow phenomenon depends on how loaded the poly bushing is. On the Fiero rear, there is not much constant force pulling on the bushings, so this could explain why I haven't observed cold flow.
Hmmm...You may have a point about the cold flow on Mustangs vs Fieros.....Way back when (1970s) Mike's Father (Bill Maier, Maier Racing) was recommending Poly but then stopped after discovering the cold-flow problem; On 1st generation Mustangs, the front Upper A-arms are under load constantly from spring/Car weight, and of course the same with the bushings on the (Rear) leaf springs....
Fieros front upper arm has (Basically) no load- same for the rear A-arm or (88) links....the front LOWER arm may show some signs of accumulated deflection due to spring load- but of course, the Fiero FRONT is MUCH lighter than a Mustang FRONT (11-1200 vs 18-2000 lbs front weight)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 05-17-2023).]
In the rear control arms, I would probably leave the polyurethane. The weight of the car is supported by the struts; the rear control arm isn't involved in supporting the weight of the car as the front lower control arms do. I do not think there is much effect on ride quality with poly rear control arm bushings.
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Originally posted by cvxjet:
Fieros front upper arm has (Basically) no load- same for the rear A-arm or (88) links....the front LOWER arm may show some signs of accumulated deflection due to spring load- but of course, the Fiero FRONT is MUCH lighter than a Mustang FRONT (11-1200 vs 18-2000 lbs front weight)
Interesting guys... so, wanted to just quantify what you guys are saying...
REAR CONTROL ARMS: You guys recommend keeping poly on the rear control arms. SUBFRAME: Poly FRONT UPPER CONTROL ARM: Rubber? FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARM: Poly?
I don't want to hijack this thread, I think cvxjet did a good job (where can I buy those spacers?)... but if ride quality and handling were both important (meaning that you wanted the car to perform well, but you were now in your mid-40s and your priorities had changed)... would the above be correct?
Didnt mean to launch a robust discussion, haha. I still think Im going with rubber on the rear control arms but now something more solid on cradle for frame stiffness.
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Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
Rubber is meant to to stuck to the outer shell and inner sleeve. It is supposed to deform in shear as the shell rotates about the inner sleeve. There should not be any sliding action.
As there is no sliding action in a rubber bushing, there should be no grease applied.
Pressing should use spacers as mentioned. .
My original question was more in regards to this... thank you. Without grease to aid rubber installations, is there any other way to aid in bushing installation? Freeze the rubber bushing beforehand??I had a weld repair performed inside the bore and ground back to shape as best as possible, and want to aid bushing installation as much as I can.
I made the spacers from 1 5/8" ID pipe....1/8" thick....Cut in half (Approx') and wide enough to keep the A-Arm from collapsing. Different widths depending on which A-Arm you are working on.
When cutting the pipe and pressing out/in the bushings, definitely count your fingers before and after....(I still have six and a half fingers)
The biggest problem with the 84-87 rear suspension is that the tie-rod length should have been LESS than the A-Arm (Which is approx' 12 inches)...But instead, the idiots made them 15+ inches long. If you want to stay with the early suspension, shorten those tie-rods....(Several ways of doing that- even kits (Somewhere) or a modification that mount a short tie-rod to the A-arm).
I swapped in the 88 rear on my 85 SE V6 and it was a big improvement (You need to change to coil-overs to make it fit)
[This message has been edited by cvxjet (edited 05-17-2023).]
My original question was more in regards to this... thank you. Without grease to aid rubber installations, is there any other way to aid in bushing installation? Freeze the rubber bushing beforehand??I had a weld repair performed inside the bore and ground back to shape as best as possible, and want to aid bushing installation as much as I can.
Oh, you can absolutely use grease on the metal parts! It's an entire assembly. With the poly, you re-use the metal shell, and the grease is used to lube it all up.
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Interesting guys... so, wanted to just quantify what you guys are saying...
REAR CONTROL ARMS: You guys recommend keeping poly on the rear control arms. SUBFRAME: Poly FRONT UPPER CONTROL ARM: Rubber? FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARM: Poly?
I don't want to hijack this thread, I think cvxjet did a good job (where can I buy those spacers?)... but if ride quality and handling were both important (meaning that you wanted the car to perform well, but you were now in your mid-40s and your priorities had changed)... would the above be correct?
My opinions...
I don't like compromises too much, I want the cow, the milk, and the butter that goes with it.
REAR CONTROL ARMS: Poly. Not much load at rest. Good to have stiff to keep the rear end stable. SUBFRAME: Poly. Metal works too, but I think the poly is stiff enough. Forces are smaller in magnitude than at the rear control arm bushings. I think poly is better than metal for future serviceability. FRONT UPPER CONTROL ARM: Poly. Not much load at rest. If this bushing is stiffer, than there is less loss of camber in cornering. I suppose that rubber here could be OK too. I don't think that the choice of bushing material in this position will have too much effect. FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARM: Rubber. The weight of the car bears on these, so I think this would have an effect on ride quality. Pivot axes in 84-87 not collinear, so unsuitable for poly.
FRONT UPPER CONTROL ARM: Poly. Not much load at rest. If this bushing is stiffer, than there is less loss of camber in cornering. I suppose that rubber here could be OK too. I don't think that the choice of bushing material in this position will have too much effect. FRONT LOWER CONTROL ARM: Rubber. The weight of the car bears on these, so I think this would have an effect on ride quality. Pivot axes in 84-87 not collinear, so unsuitable for poly.
I was really hoping your recommendations were going to reverse these... hahah... it was such a pain in the ass getting those WS6 springs on without messing up the fancy red paint on them.
I actually did this myself years ago, but I only changed the front bushings back to rubber. The replacement rubber bushings are incased with the metal sleeve, so you press out the sleeve, while using some type of backup spacer (I used cut pipe also) to keep the arm from deforming. Much better and less noise, at least from the bushings. Still an old car with squeaks and rattles.
