It's always fun to read about projects like this, where folks with keen engineering minds/backgrounds build new things for the Fiero. Congratulations on the progress you've made so far, and it looks like for drumming up continued interest in the mods!
Unrelated good info that came out your thread (for me), was the comment about how the new aftermarket Gen 2 motors are faster than the originals. I might have to pick up a set of those just to keep on hand if my Rodeny-improved ones ever die.
Originally posted by Larryinkc: Quote from theogre
"Good news, Cardone AZ etc have New Gen2 Motors and with a lifetime warranty. They are a bit faster then OE but both are well under 1 sec to open or close. I've tested Cardone and opens in about â…” of a second."
Yes Cardone is bit faster... "Measured" timing counting frames of video operating the motors. With dash cam putting out 30FPS and open several times = ~ 20 frames or about â…” of a second.
Note: Can do same w/ Other dash cams etc but have to check FPS before counting. Even my current dash cam output different FPS depending on setup at given time. Many Phones do this too even before using "slow mo" and other modes w/ higher frame rates.
We found a few failures of the motor brush holders. Circuitry seems to be holding up good. Still have a lot more testing before Im ready to start making production kits. Hopefully should have a video out this month of operation and install.
Bad News first. Lots of gen 1 motor brush failures. We are on revision 3 of our brush holder. Hoping these can hold out.
Good New. The cheapo depot Gen 2 cardones are working fantastically! Will be installing a set on my car. Quiet and Fast operation. Only one failure of my control box so far and it was more my fault during the install than anything. (It was the one I spilled my "beverage" on while building at 3am. Thought i dried it out enough but nope. Anyways. More updates and a video to come!
Would you guys be more interested in a cheaper control box and no brushes or should I stay the course and offer the brush kit for gen 1 housings?
[This message has been edited by Dukesterpro (edited 03-21-2023).]
My thoughts are that Generation 2 harnesses are in very short supply for converting from Generation 1. Far more Generation 1 cars out there. I have just completed a 2 month long distance diagnostics and rehab of a Generation 1 system. Stripped gears, then a bad motor relay, then a bad limiter switch, then a bad isolation relay. Luckily, I have stockpiled a few of the needed parts. Once you perfect your replacement limiter switch and control module, I think the only area where a problem would arise would be the stripping of the old plastic gears.
It would also be beneficial and likely more economical if a control module for Generation 2 headlights were developed. I could buy a decent parts car for what some are asking for a module.
I would go back and read some of my old announcments FieroFool.
My module does work directly with GEN 2 and GEN 1 headlights. Nothing else but the headlight motors is equired.
It can plug and play directly into either gen car. I was just wondering that if GEN 2 headlights are still in production, if its even worth producing the new brush holder for Gen 1s. I still think I want to provide the option. My new variant just came off the printer and I am curious to see if it holds up better.
I had the brush holder two thin vertically, which allows it enough play to push up and away from armature. The spinning armature would then snag the brush arms and snap the holder.
Newer versions are thicker so there is no vertical play
I would go back and read some of my old announcments FieroFool.
My module does work directly with GEN 2 and GEN 1 headlights. Nothing else but the headlight motors is equired.
It can plug and play directly into either gen car. I was just wondering that if GEN 2 headlights are still in production, if its even worth producing the new brush holder for Gen 1s. I still think I want to provide the option. My new variant just came off the printer and I am curious to see if it holds up better.
Admittedly, I haven't read every post. I've just been spot checking. That's very good that it works with both motors. It could save those Gen 1 owners a couple hundred bucks by not needing to buy replacement motors.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 03-22-2023).]
The only reason I would see to stick with the gen 1 motors is to either keep the car original, in which case they might not be interested in this product regardless, or as mentioned above, to save a few bucks not buying replacement motors. Though after metal gears and new brush holders and all that, not sure how much money would be saved.
The gen 2 motors are faster and smoother and in more vehicles, so more aftermarket available, and I think the majority of people like myself would jump at the opportunity to upgrade to the gen 2 motors without the crazy cost of the entire gen 2 setup.
So while the brush holder upgrade itself is a cool concept, I see it more as a restoration component that may be purchased without the controller at all by someone who wants to rebuild the factory motors and keep the car as original as possible in 2023.
I definitely am starting to agree with you ZKHennings. I am currently running the Cardone Gen2s with my controller and they are freaking great.
The problem with my brush holder is that it doesn't even work for people wanting to restore the original operation, it actually converts the gen 1 headlight motor into a gen 2 motor (in the way that it operates, 2 wire instead of 3 wire).
As far as release dates. I want to have these tested in hotter weather which we are pretty close to getting up here in Wisconsin before I start shipping. Once I get a little less rain and a little more time around here I will go out and get a demonstration video.
Well to further get you excited I wanted to drop a test video of what was supposed to be our production prototype. We are closing in on beta versions soon. I just need to improve the sleep mode code. The module is drinking to much power at idle. It can kill a full car battery in 8-10 days with no starts. Which is not acceptable. We are almost there. An easy fix would be to just add a simply switched power wire to the box instead of constant power, but I want to have as minimal amount of wiring as necessary.
For now, here's a teaser video. This is using the new controller box. Gen 2 style motor bolted directly to my 1984 style headlight buckets.
I am planning on being at the 40th anniversary to show off the design, but I am hoping to move a few testing units to folks within the next month or two.
The video showcases, regular operation, interruption protection, and winking (probably going to be removed, but the way it's supposed to work is if you double tap your headlight switch from the on position (off-on-off-on) it will switch to controlling only the motor you have selected on the toggle switch on the box. Allowing you to wink only one motor. The effect expires after 15 seconds and the box returns to controlling both headlights. Dumb feature in hindsight but It was on my project overview so I needed to include it for my grade.
The problem right now is reducing the footprint of the box which is currently 4x7x3. If I can just half the height of the enclosure I will be much much happier.
Please let me know what you guys are thinking!
[This message has been edited by Dukesterpro (edited 04-19-2023).]
I would think that rebuilding the motors with Rodney's kit, even Gen 1 is better than these Gen 2 replacements.
Would this be true?
Everybody has there own opinion but if I could get a reliable control module I would run from the Gen I headlights at the first opportunity. I have rebuilt several Gen I headlights. The problem used to be stripped gears. On the latest rebuild I used up the last of my spares brushes to find ones where the contacts didn't fall off. If you go the Rodney route you'll be gluing on the contacts and who knows how long that will last.
------------------ formerly known as sanderson 1984 Quad 4 1886 SE 2.8L 1988 4.9L Cadillac 1988 3800 Supercharged
Everybody has there own opinion but if I could get a reliable control module I would run from the Gen I headlights at the first opportunity. I have rebuilt several Gen I headlights. The problem used to be stripped gears. On the latest rebuild I used up the last of my spares brushes to find ones where the contacts didn't fall off. If you go the Rodney route you'll be gluing on the contacts and who knows how long that will last.
Then this will be the module for you! The 84 in the demonstration video had Cardone Gen 2 headlight motors plugged in with no modifications required. That is my choice of motor, they are just so quiet and reliable.
Been watching this for a while and will now ask my question. Any reason the module wouldn't work with simple linear actuators in a custom setup?
This motor will work with any 12-volt DC actuator that has a locked end of travel. The motor has to stall at the end of its travel. In theory, the module would not require any modifications to work with something like that. As it stands now, I have plugged it in directly to everything from a mercury cougar to a triumph TR7 and it worked almost out of the gate for all of them.
This motor will work with any 12-volt DC actuator that has a locked end of travel. The motor has to stall at the end of its travel. In theory, the module would not require any modifications to work with something like that. As it stands now, I have plugged it in directly to everything from a mercury cougar to a triumph TR7 and it worked almost out of the gate for all of them.
Im all about upgrading. Even though my gen 1's are rebuilt, I'm good with getting 2nd gen motors, or any other retrofit motors if they are brushless, quieter, faster or whatever. I'm good with it.
I think for the mean time, or atleast for the first round of beta testers we are going to just go with second gen motor compliancy for now. I want to get another month of testing on my final version for now. Then in June I will move a few Beta Testing units for a few people who would like to be testers. I will keep everyone updated
Watched your video. Very cool system. Nice work. BTW your left bulb is out.
Is your control module a direct replacement for the control module for the 87-88 Gen 2 system?
Is it literally a remove old control module and plug in your control module and done? Would it be that simple or would other components neeed replacement as well as additional wiring mods? Also what are you thinking the price would be for an 87-88 owner that just wants a new control module (not needing the brush holder setups that the Gen1 guys need)?
Watched your video. Very cool system. Nice work. BTW your left bulb is out.
Is your control module a direct replacement for the control module for the 87-88 Gen 2 system?
Is it literally a remove old control module and plug in your control module and done? Would it be that simple or would other components neeed replacement as well as additional wiring mods? Also what are you thinking the price would be for an 87-88 owner that just wants a new control module (not needing the brush holder setups that the Gen1 guys need)?
Its plug in play in the nature that it requires no other components except what's included in the kit. It does require some simple wiring.
The Gen 2 kit includes
-The module. -The plug pigtail for adapting the original wiring coming from the cabin to the modules power plug. -Crossover Cables (2 wire strands that plug each headlight into the module)
Steps to install in Gen II original systems currently are,
- cut plug off harness going to old module and route to location where you want the new module. (I recommend inside the trunk/spare tire area instead of the fender well) -remove old harness going to headlight motors (OPTIONAL) -crimp or solder new plug onto old harness from cabin -plug module in -plug crossover cables in -route cables to headlight motors and plug in.
If I find out which plug the original gen 2 module uses I might be able to make it plug and play. Someone would have to send me a dead module. I don't have one available at the moment I sold the one on my 88 to fund this project lol (I am committed to my design)
Basically the module is looking for the same 3 things the original module is looking for 12V+ Constant, 12V Switched (Headlight On/OFF) and GND.
I'm not making any commitments on price at the moment. I am trying however to keep the module only kit price at around 200-220$
Right now the final version of the Gen 2 module has about 2 weeks of strenuous real world driving/testing and has no issues so far.
I'm sure you'll get plenty of volunteers but I would be willing to be a beta tester if you need me. I'm excited to rid myself of the GEN 1 motors. I'm tired of taking them apart and fixing them.
I'm not making any commitments on price at the moment. I am trying however to keep the module only kit price at around 200-220$
Right now the final version of the Gen 2 module has about 2 weeks of strenuous real world driving/testing and has no issues so far.
Replacement Gen 2 used modules are readily available for $150-200. You might have some problems selling your kit at a price that's higher than a replacement.
-Used, unrepairable module that is at best 30 years old, with no new suppliers, from a company that would rather sue you for trying to keep there cars on the road?
-New, user serviceable module, that can be continually rebuilt at home with cheap parts from someone who is not only actively developing the module, but it ensuring that the module does exactly what the community will want out of it.
If that isn't worth 200 dollars to people, I understand. I don't need to sell a bajillion of these. If I sell 3 units to people who want those benefits, then I will be happy. If I don't sell a single unit, I will be happy, because my cars headlights work.
I also understand some would want to keep it OEM. But parts are running out, the number of cars with Gen1 systems vastly outnumbers the Gen2 cars, on top of that Gen 2 cars are less likely to be parted out. . .
I ordered some parts to make the design a little smaller. After that I will open up an application process for beta testers.
I will be looking initially for 3-5 testers.
*You must have electrical or technical experience. The module is assembled from readily available Arduino components. Most of it is plug in play but sometimes wires need to be connected or soldered. Sometimes we may swap out components for reliability or performance.
*You must have a running Fiero that you can install these into.
*You must be able to drive that Fiero on a somewhat regular basis.
*You must be willing to provide written feedback on a monthly basis. All information and reports will be handled through Discord
*First (84-86) and Second (87-88) Gen Cars are welcome. However, you must have a working set of 2nd Generation headlight motors. New units are available online. Mounting hardware for 2nd Gen Headlights will be provided to you as part of you kit upon request.
*You must have access to a windows computer and basic computer abilities, firmware for the controller may change as the program develops and problems are detected. You may have to update your controller. It involves opening the case, plugging in a USB cable and running a program. You don't have to be Bill Gates, but I don't want to have to explain how to use a mouse
*Entry to the Beta Program is 150.00$ + Shipping. You may not have a perfect module out of the gate but will receive free updates and upgrades as we progress. When the program is over you will have the same module as those purchasing the final version. No beta tester will be stuck with a unfinished product.
*Bonus points to people with Fiero's in hostile extreme environments (Heat, Rain, etc)
*Bonus points if you are planning on attending the 40th Anniversary
I will open up a google forms applications soon after the version 4 module is good to go! Please leave feedback below!
Dukesterpro; My 85 GT lights started acting up this week and so of course i had been reading your thread. Karma !! I would be happy to help with testing or just be able to purchase your kit . sleek
I didn't get anywhere near as many testers as I would have liked. No biggie, the project will go on as described.
Everyone who has submitted a request has been accepted. A email with more details is soon to follow.
This product will come to market so help me god. I appreciate those that were willing to take that risk with me! Your development units are under construction now. Please await for further details in your email!
Everyone else, stay tuned for more information. My prototype is currently at 3400 cycles (up and down) and still going!
Originally posted by Dukesterpro: Its plug in play in the nature that it requires no other components except what's included in the kit. It does require some simple wiring. <snip> I'm not making any commitments on price at the moment. I am trying however to keep the module only kit price at around 200-220$
If you think to make for others or otherwise Sell suggest you find a lawyer & ask what you need to protect your home & more. You "school" likely has a Legal Team to ask free or cheap.
Getting sued is bad. Getting NSTHA Recall Order is far worse & bankrupt many companies including Takata over huge Airbag Recall because that product was hurting & killing people. NHTSA Recall can & do happen to aftermarket parts too, Example: see https://fmvss108.tripod.com/ for an old case where APC folded & gone soon after.
Many things Rodney D sell/sold but also Didn't Sell like brake "upgrade" parts is because of lawyers saying don't do it. Is only a "miracle" that TFS hasn't been sued for several reasons or GM FTC NHTSA etc still hasn't bothered w/ "GM Reproduction" light parts w/o DOT Marks that are Illegal sim to Recalls in example link.
Selling w/o Inc LLC etc & sued by users to Huge Insurance Co. will Bankrupt you. Not just selling, I know several cases where people doing "side jobs" then user/buyer had problems, made Insurance Claim then I-co & other suing + you often lose you job as many companies instantly "Terminate With Cause" even suing you for doing side work & also means you can't collect Unemployed Insurance in most States.
I been working at Fiero's since they were still under factory warranty, I've had a head light motor or 100 apart, I never seen a holder worn out, what we really need is a simple Brush set for the First Gen head light motors that doesn't cost hundred's of dollars.
[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 09-23-2023).]
Gen 1 headlights, here.
