I am trying to get to the bottom of an oil leak issue
just purchased recently and the seller said that when he rebuilt the engine that he had trouble getting the oil pan gasket on
and thought that was the origin of the leak
He said he replaced the rear seal and did not think that he put it in incorrectly
He seemed pretty competent not just in the work he said he did on this car but showed other cars and the work on them seemed again pretty competent
I tried leak detect but it is coming from the area around the pan that is on the rear seal side. It drips around the pan and the semi circle shaped portion of the pan
I got the starter removed and all the pan bolts removed, four of them are studs sticking out of the block and there are flat plates with a hole in the center that a nut tightens and pushes down against the pan and the block
any ideas about the leak issue, it is a drip and probably could just keep a quart with me, but it is annoying and would not like the look of the street in front of where we live and the driveway and garage etc I of course did not know about the intference issue with the motor mount (great)
so not crazy about the wood block on the harmonic balancer (did that once on a buick skyhawk and it cracked it and it failed on the road)
is it possible to lift passenger side on jack and remove tire and then loosen the bolts to the mount/bracket etc, then put tire back on and put rear tires on car ramps and then use a engine lift on the lift points on the engine after removing the upper swing mount and the lower mount and such
car is a manual 5 speed
not crazy about putting a piece of wood on the transmission or the oil pan to raise
thoughts, feedback suggestions ..
[This message has been edited by Signupacct (edited 01-31-2023).]
I am by no means an expert, but I'll jump in because no one else has.
It sounds like your leak is either coming from the rear main or the oil pan. I'm not sure of the best way to figure out which one it is, I never have been good at finding leaks.
As far as removing the oil pan, it is a pretty big PITA already when using the recommended method that you've referenced. Lots of owners including myself have done it this way several times with no issues. I personally would not go through all the extra work you described to avoid jacking by the oil pan or harmonic balancer. I'm not sure if any others have found a way to do this job without this, I haven't found any alternative methods.
That being said, if it is worth it to you, you could always just give it a try, worst case scenario it doesn't work and you are out a few hours of work.
perhaps I need to rephrase the post or place it somewhere else. Its Friday and no responses yet
Sometimes you just need to make use of the Search function here. There are 23 years worth of posts/threads readily accessible.
quote
Originally posted by Signupacct:
not crazy about putting a piece of wood on the transmission or the oil pan to raise
I personally would never raise an engine by putting a piece of wood under the oil pan and jacking it up. No problem with placing a jack under a transmission though. The other option, the best one IMO, is to suspend the engine and lower the cradle.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-20-2023).]
Sign, as has been said, many, many owners have used the wood block method without issue, but I can see how having had a balancer failure would give one pause. The solution is quite simple, just remove the balancer and use the snub nose of the crank as the point that sits on the wood block.
Just having weird pressure on a balancer can wreck them. Worse if load moves for any reason. Rubber part may seem strong but isn't and isn't "glued" to the metal and outer metal easily popped off w/ very little effort. Crank and many other Pulleys aren't very strong either and can damage it w/o being obvious until engine starts. If a pulley is a tiny off center then belt(s) and other things will have problems.
Pan and other Gasket Leaks is often cause by installing wrong. Example: Any RTV w/ many Gaskets will cause failure. Contamination of surfaces make RTV to Fail too even if some gaskets need a little at some locations.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
If you have an engine crane, then the engine can be lifted from the top with the two lifting lugs provided on the engine. There is a special GM J-tool for doing this but it is nothing more than a bar with a lifting lug in the middle and hook on each end to go into the lifting lugs on the engine. In lieu of the special tool, it may work to run a strap to the lifting lugs. I use seat belts salvaged from the junk yard for this type of lifting. They are plenty strong.
------------------ formerly known as sanderson 1984 Quad 4 1886 SE 2.8L 1988 4.9L Cadillac 1988 3800 Supercharged
Some thoughts, curious what year Skylark that was? Anyway, do you have any documentation of the rebuild? Like a P/N of the oil pan gasket or gasket set? The 85-86's were different from the 87-88's. Just guessing he may have used the earlier gasket on the 87 which might explain it. I like Patrick's idea about dropping the cradle if the engine was just rebuilt, it should come down no problem. And if the gasket isn't the problem, you're steps ahead dropping the cradle for the rear main seal. Might be worth checking the distributor to see if that gasket is in place.
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 01-21-2023).]
Might be worth checking the distributor to see if that gasket is in place.
Excellent point (although I believe you're referring to the O-ring). The distributor sticks into a pressurized oil passage in the block. When the distributor O-ring gets old and hard, it can fail to properly seal oil from escaping past the body of the distributor. The escaped oil then runs down the back of the block. This has fooled many people over the years into thinking there's an oil leak somewhere lower down.
Excellent point (although I believe you're referring to the O-ring). The distributor sticks into a pressurized oil passage in the block. When the distributor O-ring gets old and hard, it can fail to properly seal oil from escaping past the body of the distributor. The escaped oil then runs down the back of the block. This has fooled many people over the years into thinking there's an oil leak somewhere lower down.
Yeah, o-ring..haven't had the distributor out of 60 deg V6 in quite a while where my Pontiac V8 has a gasket. The later 60 deg V6's suffer from this even without the distributor, there is plug in its place but the same problem occurs. Wonder how many have been ripped off replacing the oil pan gasket when it was just the o-ring.
[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 01-22-2023).]
I too am experiencing a similar problem on my 87 GT. I find oil spots the size of quarter under the front engine area on the ground. I had my mechanic check and he ordered a new oil pan gasket. He told me he will double check the area after installation and clean up. Recent photo taken underneath during inspection. I'll keep you posted.
MERATIME has found anti gravity and drive on ceilings. Picture is "upside down" because many phones etc often doesn't "read" or output orientation right when take a pic then other programs have no clue and display 180° rotated.
Should be: (Rotated 180° Reduce to 35% of source to save server space.)
Fiero w/ V6 AC and Oil leak there is often tube for oil pressure or sender itself.
If you are sure that your oil leak is coming from the oil pan, drain the oil, remove the front motor mount and the bracket, jack the engine up, support with a small piece of 2 x4 under the starter to cradle. Then you will be able to remove all the oil pan bolts and drop the pan. When replacing the gasket make sure that you put a dab of silicone sealant in the corners of where the oil pan meets the block around the bearing journals. tighten all bolts to spec and do not overtighten.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
You've got to wonder what some people expect when they ask for assistance here. Do they think this site is staffed by paid employees?
Less than one full day after the OP started this thread, he was upset that he hadn't received any responses. He expressed his impatience again five days later. Since then, there have been twelve responses regarding this oil leak issue. And how appreciative has the OP been? Who knows ... as it's now been nine days with no sign of the OP.
You've got to wonder what some people expect when they ask for assistance here. Do they think this site is staffed by paid employees?
Less than one full day after the OP started this thread, he was upset that he hadn't received any responses. He expressed his impatience again five days later. Since then, there have been twelve responses regarding this oil leak issue. And how appreciative has the OP been? Who knows ... as it's now been nine days with no sign of the OP.
To be honest, this is why I almost completely stopped helping on here. No one gives a damn once they get their answer. Seems like it's not worth wasting my time helping anyone on here.
[This message has been edited by IMSA GT (edited 01-29-2023).]
My bad with the photo. Thanks for the information.
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
MERATIME has found anti gravity and drive on ceilings. Picture is "upside down" because many phones etc often doesn't "read" or output orientation right when take a pic then other programs have no clue and display 180° rotated.
Should be: (Rotated 180° Reduce to 35% of source to save server space.)
Fiero w/ V6 AC and Oil leak there is often tube for oil pressure or sender itself.
Originally posted by Patrick: You've got to wonder what some people expect when they ask for assistance here. Do they think this site is staffed by paid employees?
Less than one full day after the OP started this thread, he was upset that he hadn't received any responses. He expressed his impatience again five days later. Since then, there have been twelve responses regarding this oil leak issue. And how appreciative has the OP been? Who knows ... as it's now been nine days with no sign of the OP.
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT: To be honest, this is why I almost completely stopped helping on here. No one gives a damn once they get their answer. Seems like it's not worth wasting my time helping anyone on here.
This isn't new. Hundreds to Thousands of "Members" of all Forums ask 1 or more Q and most got answers, often mean whatever problem is going to cost way more or planned "upgrade" is illegal and/or have big problems like GA Brakes. And gone.
IOW Many here ask to find a cheap fast fix often just before selling or junking the car. Most members Never wanted to keep their Fiero for Decades. Some are Imports to X country and have several owners now w/ some ask same Q's here then sold/junk because have same hard problems to fix. Getting Fiero to Pass UK MOT and other EU Inspection is often way harder then even strictest US State Inspections.
Other Car Forums and Gun Forums are way, Way, worse for this. Often Because "only" 1 way to fix X and often Dangerous ways and anyone calling BS is a moron or banned. Example: Many Gun Forums have "Experts" pushes crap "upgrades" that cost a lot, nubes to mod'ing anything, etc. to make the trigger to feel "better" and more when only thing needed is to completely clean out factory lube and grease/oil with good products and maybe watching for binding because left over mold flash, metal hitting somewhere wrong, and related.
I agree, newbs disappearing after asking a question is nothing new... but I felt this situation was a little different. OP twice complained about a lack of responses, the first time only 23 hours after his initial post... and then vanishes into the ether with a dozen responses to his inquiry sitting unacknowledged. Seems weird to me.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-30-2023).]
This forum has always been quite slow... Not like there is much breaking news on a 35 year old car, that they only made for five years, and sold not even half a million of them. Personally, I only check in once or twice a week
Excellent point (although I believe you're referring to the O-ring). The distributor sticks into a pressurized oil passage in the block. When the distributor O-ring gets old and hard, it can fail to properly seal oil from escaping past the body of the distributor. The escaped oil then runs down the back of the block. This has fooled many people over the years into thinking there's an oil leak somewhere lower down.
My opinion on this specific part - even if it's not leaking now, and it's original - replace it. It's less than a buck, and you can have it swapped out in about 15 minutes if you have all your ducks in a row.
I did it this past Summer, after hemming and hawing for a long time about it. Now I wish I'd done it sooner.
its feast or famine and just now returning to check for any responses after many days of waiting and hitting the refresh button!
quote
If you have an engine crane, then the engine can be lifted from the top with the two lifting lugs provided on the engine. There is a special GM J-tool for doing this but it is nothing more than a bar with a lifting lug in the middle and hook on each end to go into the lifting lugs on the engine. In lieu of the special tool, it may work to run a strap to the lifting lugs. I use seat belts salvaged from the junk yard for this type of lifting. They are plenty strong.
We purchased a engine hoist from HF (was on sale for $30 off ) over the weekend as it will be needed for another project and would prefer using it if it is possible.
Yes I noted two eye hooks on the top of the engine and assumed that they were leftover from installing the engine at the factory ?
If those are suitable we will use those
quote
Some thoughts, curious what year Skylark that was? Anyway, do you have any documentation of the rebuild? Like a P/N of the oil pan gasket or gasket set? The 85-86's were different from the 87-88's. Just guessing he may have used the earlier gasket on the 87 which might explain it. [u]I like Patrick's idea about dropping the cradle if the engine was just rebuilt, it should come down no problem. And if the gasket isn't the problem, you're steps ahead dropping the cradle for the rear main seal. Might be worth checking the distributor to see if that gasket is in place[/u].
yes I like the idea also thanks
[This message has been edited by Signupacct (edited 01-31-2023).]
Just having weird pressure on a balancer can wreck them. Worse if load moves for any reason. Rubber part may seem strong but isn't and isn't "glued" to the metal and outer metal easily popped off w/ very little effort. Crank and many other Pulleys aren't very strong either and can damage it w/o being obvious until engine starts. If a pulley is a tiny off center then belt(s) and other things will have problems.
its good to have someone confirm my suspicions as I had mentioned I cracked one years ago (details on another response post)
quote
Pan and other Gasket Leaks is often cause by installing wrong. Example: Any RTV w/ many Gaskets will cause failure. Contamination of surfaces make RTV to Fail too even if some gaskets need a little at some locations.
yes I most recently worked with RTV and hear good and bad (mostly bad about it)and suspect it is how it is used that determines
The gasket I have is a one piece and thick rubbery and came with 4 plastic pins. My plan was to call felpro and confirm where if any sealer is needed and where and how to apply it. Planned also to use the four pins and ordered four additional pins since the gasket appears to be designed with nib shapes at the rear main side and those nibs appear to need to be fitted around the crank in an exact manner.
Some thoughts, curious what year Skylark that was? Anyway, do you have any documentation of the rebuild? Like a P/N of the oil pan gasket or gasket set? The 85-86's were different from the 87-88's. Just guessing he may have used the earlier gasket on the 87 which might explain it. I like Patrick's idea about dropping the cradle if the engine was just rebuilt, it should come down no problem. And if the gasket isn't the problem, you're steps ahead dropping the cradle for the rear main seal. Might be worth checking the distributor to see if that gasket is in place.
if you would like to pull up a chair for storytime here goes:
Had a 1980 Buick Skyhawk with the Roadhawk appearance package with 231 v6 and four speed and had a problem with the clutch I think so somehow changing it required raising the engine and putting a piece of wood underneath harmonic balancer. Completed procedure etc and was in college at the time going between home and campus (long distance) and in the middle of the night harmonic balancer made noise and I remember having to contend with it in a convenience store parking lot with whatever tools I had on hand. Not fun. Once home I realized not only harmonic balancer cracked but key cracked and had issues getting a new one and a key to successfully repair etc. after college replaced engine. So yeah not real crazy about a piece of wood etc. But thanks all for the suggestions etc
[This message has been edited by Signupacct (edited 01-31-2023).]
If you are sure that your oil leak is coming from the oil pan, drain the oil, remove the front motor mount and the bracket, jack the engine up, support with a small piece of 2 x4 under the starter to cradle. Then you will be able to remove all the oil pan bolts and drop the pan. When replacing the gasket make sure that you put a dab of silicone sealant in the corners of where the oil pan meets the block around the bearing journals. tighten all bolts to spec and do not overtighten.
duly noted thank you
quote
Yeah, o-ring..haven't had the distributor out of 60 deg V6 in quite a while where my Pontiac V8 has a gasket. The later 60 deg V6's suffer from this even without the distributor, there is plug in its place but the same problem occurs. Wonder how many have been ripped off replacing the oil pan gasket when it was just the o-ring.
This suggestion is huge and really appreciate it being offered. Thanks Mark!
have previous owner who seemed pretty skilled pulled the engine and machined it and changed out clutch pressure plate and throwout bearing etc and put it all back in and could only say that he said he thought had some difficulty getting the pan and gasket placed and thought the leak was the result of that. It could be he got the wrong gasket. He said it was the original pan so probably is not that. I checked underneath to be sure it was not the vavle cover gaskets or just the oil filter not tight. Nothing found there but will check the distributor etc.
the oils drips off and around where the pan contours the rear main etc. again will check from distributor on down.
quote
Excellent point (although I believe you're referring to the O-ring). The distributor sticks into a pressurized oil passage in the block. When the distributor O-ring gets old and hard, it can fail to properly seal oil from escaping past the body of the distributor. The escaped oil then runs down the back of the block. This has fooled many people over the years into thinking there's an oil leak somewhere lower down.
yes makes sense
[This message has been edited by Signupacct (edited 02-01-2023).]
its feast or famine and just now returning to check for any responses after many days of waiting and hitting the refresh button!
You posted three times within five days, obviously impatient for a response... and then you disappear for eleven days while the responses are piling up.
As I stated in my previous post, this just seems a little weird to me.
my 87 GT. I find oil spots the size of quarter under the front engine area on the ground. I had my mechanic check and he ordered a new oil pan gasket. He told me he will double check the area after installation and clean up. Recent photo taken underneath during inspection. I'll keep you posted.
... as it's now been nine days with no sign of the OP.
