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Bleh, throwout bearing replacement, questions while i'm already there. by A_Lonely_Potato
Started on: 11-05-2022 03:55 PM
Replies: 22 (374 views)
Last post by: A_Lonely_Potato on 01-15-2023 10:29 PM
A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-05-2022 03:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So my throwout bearing went out a couple days ago(it seems). I was driving along, coming up on a light, clutch in, woah, that didnt feel right.... Sitting in neutral, light goes green, try to go into 1st, and well it just won't go in! Shut down, get into first, start up and i can get moving. Manage to get off the road, which of course was the 44 beltline through grand rapids at 2pm! Got it town home on thursday, was a very nerve wracking experience using a 2007 grand caravan haha.

Anyway, I gotta drop my cradle and separate my engine/trans, and i'm figuring while i'm already doing all that, why not get a swap done? We'll see if that actually happens though. I want to do an LZ9. To start with, i'm looking to do this as stock as is reasonable. Stock ECM, swap to DBW, not delete VVT/variable intake. I do want to keep the fiero gauges though, and am having some difficulty finding the information to do so. current potential donor is an 07 chevy uplander LS, which near as i can tell is using a variant of the E67 ECU, i keep finding new numbers(19210737, 12605843, 19210736) and i don't rightly know which one is right. I want to gather all the information I can before deciding to commit to this. If anyone can help with pinouts to mate the gauges to the ECM, it would be quite appreciated.

I have a welder, and access to a plasma cutter, drill press, vertical mill, lathe, layout tools, and i can layout a part according to blueprints. i'm comfortable doing wiring as well. I should be reasonably well equipped, i just don't know all that i gotta know yet.
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Report this Post11-05-2022 11:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NotorioSend a Private Message to NotorioEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Potato,

I have to admire your spunk, diving unreservedly into a significant engine swap when all you really need is some simple tranny work: here's wishing you the best on your journey. A quick search turned up this thread with some people who seem to know what you are asking about (I think). LZ9 ECM.
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A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-06-2022 10:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i've read through that thread before, i don't know why i didn't remember it. thanks for bringing it up to me

to be honest, i've been looking for an excuse to start a swap. i got this car with the intention of swapping it at some point, and i don't need it to get myself around, i have other vehicles. my engine itself isn't in the best condition, i need to replace the lower intake gaskets/seal as it is leaking oil pretty good at the "s" and its just a bit of a pain to do with the engine still in the car.

[This message has been edited by A_Lonely_Potato (edited 11-06-2022).]

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fierofool
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Report this Post11-06-2022 01:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Failed throwout bearings will generally make a lot of noise and you may feel vibations in the pedal. Temporarily, I would look at your hydraulic system, specifically the slave cylinder. You don't say what engine/transmission combo you have. If it's a 4-speed, it could also be the slave cylinder mount that is prone to breaking without warning.

Pop the boot off the end of the slave and check for fluid. Also, pull the carpet and padding back underneath the dash just below the master cylinder pushrod and look for fluid tracks down the front bulkhead. This may get you going until you're ready for your swap.
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Report this Post11-06-2022 01:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Helpful info: year, engine, trans.
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A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-06-2022 02:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
86 GT with isuzu 5spd. mostly stock 2.8

When i broke down i checked slave throw, it was correct at about 1.125". I had replaced my master cylinder a couple months ago, and i also checked for leaks and fluid level at the same time. Tranny had been clicking/ticking in sync to engine RPM for months whenever my clutch was engaged, and would stop when clutch was disengaged. through all gears it would do this. i felt a lot of chatter and vibration when i depressed the clutch, and again when getting it moving and off the road.
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Report this Post11-07-2022 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The throwout bearing may have come loose from the fork or you have lost some of the fingers on the pressure plate. Did you use a V6 clutch pack with the Isuzu transmission or an Isuzu clutch kit? The Isuzu clutch plate is a bit smaller than the V6 and will wear out quicker. It may even slip under hard acceleration. I always bought a clutch plate and pressure plate for an 85V6, then purchased a separate throwout bearing for an Isuzu 5-speed for the 2 85GTs that I had converted.
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A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-07-2022 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I actually do not know, as I did not do the trans swap, a P/O did that. I guess i'll be finding out in a couple days after i get everything together and drop my cradle

If i don't attempt a swap, i will still be replacing my clutch disc, so that is good information to know! thanks
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Report this Post11-10-2022 06:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
wow, this was quite terrifying haha. tomorrow I will get to work taking stuff off/apart. dinged my bumper with the hoist unfortunately.





third edit, got the images working haha

[This message has been edited by A_Lonely_Potato (edited 11-11-2022).]

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A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-11-2022 05:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So, some development. got my engine/trans separated, and my clutch off.

lets start with the throwout bearing, since thats what i believed to be my main issue.



WOW! i don't know how that clip came out, but it for sure did!

when i first pulled it off, the clip seemed to be rotated as well, so the fork arms i beleive were striking the rear of the bearing instead of the intended surface, as seems likely by the wear marks on the raised portion.



now for the juicy part. i got my clutch pressure plate and clutch disc off. and i notice something rolling around between the pressure plate and disc, pick up the disc and theres a spring there??? look at my clutch and whaddya know, looks like a spring managed to blast its way out of its home!



it looks to me like it gave the clutch disc a good beating while it was at it too. ill edit with more pictures when i get back, but for now i wanted to show off the latest.
quick edit: if someone could help me identify which clutch i have, that would be awesome!

[This message has been edited by A_Lonely_Potato (edited 11-11-2022).]

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Patrick
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Report this Post11-11-2022 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I don't know if you've mentioned it before, but you've got a nice aftermarket exhaust system on there... although it might be a good idea to add some header wrap (or a heat shield) to the naked Y-pipe to try and cut down on heat being thrown off towards your coil and ICM.
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Report this Post11-11-2022 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The V6 clutch disk is 9 1/8 inch diameter. The Isuzu clutch disk is 8 1/2 inch diameter. Rock Auto is the only place I can find where you can buy the pressure plate, clutch disk, and release bearing all piecemeal. Of course, you could buy a clutch kit for a V6 and buy an additional release bearing for an Isuzu. You would have to weigh which is more economical for you.
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A_Lonely_Potato
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Report this Post11-11-2022 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks patrick, should have seen how horrible it was before i welded up all the horrendous joints. oh wait, found some pictures.



i swear whoever made this, tried to learn how to weld by making these headers.



I have been wanting to wrap the rest of the Y pipe, but its a pain with the engine in the car....

guess i should get onto that
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Report this Post11-12-2022 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

The V6 clutch disk is 9 1/8 inch diameter. The Isuzu clutch disk is 8 1/2 inch diameter. Rock Auto is the only place I can find where you can buy the pressure plate, clutch disk, and release bearing all piecemeal. Of course, you could buy a clutch kit for a V6 and buy an additional release bearing for an Isuzu. You would have to weigh which is more economical for you.


got TOB off oreillys, was cheaper than i could get from RA. My clutch disk is about 9 1/16 diameter, so it sure seems to be the v6 disk. I'm really at the point where i need to decide if this engine is going back in, because if its not im gonna need a different flywheel/pressure plate/clutch disk. thanks again.
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Report this Post11-12-2022 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah, at 240 HP you're probably going to need something other than an Isuzu transmission, too.
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Report this Post11-16-2022 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

Yeah, at 240 HP you're probably going to need something other than an Isuzu transmission, too.


lol, probably. maybe i'll just abuse the isuzu till it pops, then go f23


development! TOB got here today. and it doesn't look right...

well, actually it does, thats the weird part. so here is the new bearing(left) compared to the one that was on my car(right)







doing a bit of looking, come to find out what i was sent is the correct bearing for the isuzu, but the one on my car doesn't look like its for a fiero of any kind! whats really odd is the oreillys listing for part 614108 visually matches the one that was in my car, but i was sent the isuzu bearing.



new one didn't come with the retainer spring either. thats another weird thing, the old one looks like it belongs with the isuzu bearing somehow, but it doesn't fit correctly. so i gotta source a new spring, any leads on that would be helpful.
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Report this Post11-16-2022 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You received the wrong bearing. It should have the retainer clip attached.
Autozone 1987 Fiero 2.5 manual transmission https://www.autozone.com/dr...sIgnoreVehicle=false
Rock Auto 1987 Fiero 2.5 manual transmission. Most of them have the wire retainer clip. Those that don't won't work on the Isuzu release fork.
https://www.rockauto.com/en...release+bearing,1968
O'Rielly 1987 Fiero 2.5 manual transmission.
https://www.oreillyauto.com...utch+release+bearing
NAPA 1987 Fiero 2.5 manual transmission. See Important Information: w/ 5 Speed Isuzu M/Trans
https://www.napaonline.com/...042?impressionRank=1

There are times when you must order parts for a different year Fiero than the year you have. 85 and 86 parts catalogs in most parts stores have some inaccuracies, especially when it comes to the clutch and its hydraulics. The 86 is the worse year because it had all 4 Fiero transmissions available. It had a 4-speed in early 86 V6's, a Getrag in late year 86's, and the Isuzu in all 2.5 equipped cars. For that reason, when I want something for a 4-speed, I order it for an 85 because it only had a 4-speed manual available. If it's for either 5-speed, I order for an 87 if it's a V6 or an 85 if it's a Duke.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 11-16-2022).]

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Report this Post11-16-2022 09:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

fierofool

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Member since Jan 2002
 
quote
Originally posted by A_Lonely_Potato:


lol, probably. maybe i'll just abuse the isuzu till it pops, then go f23


.


I'll give you till you hit 2nd gear.

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Report this Post11-16-2022 10:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i'm seeing both the one that was on my car, and the new one i received as the "correct" bearing on rockauto. both are listed for MT2. Were there 2 different bearings for the isuzu TOB?

 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

There are times when you must order parts for a different year Fiero than the year you have. 85 and 86 parts catalogs in most parts stores have some inaccuracies, especially when it comes to the clutch and its hydraulics. The 86 is the worse year because it had all 4 Fiero transmissions available. It had a 4-speed in early 86 V6's, a Getrag in late year 86's, and the Isuzu in all 2.5 equipped cars. For that reason, when I want something for a 4-speed, I order it for an 85 because it only had a 4-speed manual available. If it's for either 5-speed, I order for an 87 if it's a V6 or an 85 if it's a Duke.



the one i ordered was supposed to be for an 85 duke, which should have come with the isuzu, correct?
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Report this Post11-17-2022 08:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofoolClick Here to visit fierofool's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierofoolEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I saw that, too. The 85 Duke did come with an Isuzu, but because the 85 also had a 4-speed, there are frequent incorrect listings. That's why I sometimes use other years for ordering parts. The Isuzu throwout bearing had the wire retainer. The 4-speed Muncie had the posts, and the 5-speed Getrags had two flats that extended on either side of the bearing.
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Report this Post11-18-2022 01:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am in the midst of a built LZ9 swap right now, you can find my build thread “85 Notchie Build” in the tech section. I opted to delete the VVT and run a 3400 comp cams cam from WOT tech using the bearing spacers and SBC cam bearings. If you want to keep the motor stock I’d suggest getting a low mileage engine, I intended to keep mine stock but at 160,000 miles the cross hatching in the cylinder walls was very poor even though the engine seemed taken care of well enough, I also got one from an Uplander so it may have had a harder life lugging a mini van full of people around. If I did it again I would get one from a Lucerne with low mileage so I could use the stock alternator and location with a simple trimming of the hinge box. Oil fill neck will hit decklid so you will need a solution for that. I also added in an offset crossmember so I could use the stock LZ9 engine mount and oil filter location, if you don’t want to chop up the cradle you will need a solution for the oil filter and make a custom engine mount to line up with the factory cradle location. My thread is pretty detailed if you look through it. With the Isuzu the factory slave cylinder location fouls the exhaust crossover, you would need to make a custom one if you want to use the factory headers which work fine in the engine bay otherwise. Or go f23 right away and be done with slave cylinders. Also you will need a FPR since it is a return-less system at the rail, though I have seen that a corvette fuel filter has the regulation built in and can work with the motor. I opted for an Aeromotive unit so I can adjust it. Should be fun to drive when done though! Hoping for at least 300hp with all the mods.
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Report this Post11-27-2022 08:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:

I saw that, too. The 85 Duke did come with an Isuzu, but because the 85 also had a 4-speed, there are frequent incorrect listings. That's why I sometimes use other years for ordering parts. The Isuzu throwout bearing had the wire retainer. The 4-speed Muncie had the posts, and the 5-speed Getrags had two flats that extended on either side of the bearing.


been sidetracked with stuff, and work has been having me drained at the end of the day, so things have been slow. sorry for the delayed response. got my new LUK 04088 clutch today, and yesterday i got my engine mostly back together after replacing gaskets and such. finished that up just a bit ago today.

anyhow, i waited to order my TOB because i am silly and didn't want to spend that much money in a single day(clutch kit, TOB, gasket set). tonight while paroosing around looking at bearings, i noticed the wire retainer for the Isuzu TOB is enclosed. my clutch forks have single pinholes, and i don't see how they would interface with the bearing retainer.





unless im not seeing things correctly, it looks to me like i need to get another one of these bearings with this style retainer clip




zkhennings, wow, thats a lot of fantastic information! i have since decided to just put my old motor back in, and wait until the spring when i have more time, play money, and knowledge of what all i need. thank you for bringing your thread to my attention
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Report this Post01-15-2023 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Soooo, im back. had a bit of a hiatus since i shot myself with a nailgun and broke my 2nd metacarpal! Today i felt good enough to get some work done.

Got my old front cradle bushings out, that was really annoying. Jury rigged a press with a clamp and some junk laying around. Even with that i wound up torching the walls to melt it a bit to get it free.



And as you can see in that, i got the new ones in the same way. The sleeve that the bushing goes into was pretty rough and rusted, so i dremel-ed them smooth and used grease to get them in. Picked up some water repellent lube for the inner bushing sleeve and got those in too.

When removing the cradle I had to cut through one of the bolts as it was very seized. I may have already posted about that, i honestly can't remember as i type this out.



Summary, I got the new clutch and pressure plate in, also with my flywheel getting resurfaced. Got the right TOB installed, and I (hopefully) fixed my oil leak from my intake. Found out my firewall side exhaust manifold was not secured at all, cyl 4 both nuts were backed off, cyl 6 one was backed off, and the other was GONE cyl 2 was good and tight though somehow. I think i might have used too much anti seize putting them on initially lol. Hoping to power through putting things all back together. Next step will be getting the engine and cradle out of the garage and back over to the car, then installation!

For those who want to see my nailed hand, heres a linky-doo
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