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Frustrated crank no start by JWTMedic
Started on: 11-04-2022 09:27 PM
Replies: 31 (305 views)
Last post by: A_Lonely_Potato on 11-25-2022 06:44 PM
JWTMedic
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Report this Post11-04-2022 09:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To start sorry for the long post, this is the 3rd fiero I have owned, first one was amazing until it caught fire! The second one was a Ferrari kit car, loved it but it had a cranking no start one day that I could never get figured out so I sold it...
With that being said, my son now has a 1987 Fiero GT, we got it was in non running condition, we changed the ICM and the distributor, set timing and got it running and driving.
Now for the issue, it was running rough so we decided to change the fuel injectors, did that and drove it around and it ran great but, noticed a strong fuel smell. Found that the cold start Injector tube going up to the fuel rail was leaking, found a torn O ring, replaced that and tried to start the car and all it did was crank no start. This was when I remembered that I never fully tightened down the distributor so being dumb I turned it slightly and had my son crank it, then turned it more and more (no start just crank) I then remembered I forgot to ground at A B terminal before turning the distributor. So reset the timing,to TDC, still no start just crank.... sooo, since that point we have replaced nearly every sensor and the ECM, set the timing at least 6 times with still no results but a crank no start, the cranking sounds normal, battery is new making great contact, ICM was checked and it is good, it has spark confirmed by spark plug test light, fuel pump has pressure at the Schrader valve, all fuses are good. I am stumped and ready to push it out of the garage and make it someone else's problem "
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Report this Post11-04-2022 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IMSA GTSend a Private Message to IMSA GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sometimes the easiest thing to do is simply spray some starting fluid in the intake and see if it runs for a few seconds. If it does then you have a fuel delivery issue.
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Report this Post11-04-2022 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I posted my method Here for setting the static timing.
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Report this Post11-05-2022 07:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by IMSA GT:

Sometimes the easiest thing to do is simply spray some starting fluid in the intake and see if it runs for a few seconds. If it does then you have a fuel delivery issue.


I have tried this with no change, doesn't even try to start.
I have pulled the number 1 and 3 spark plugs after cranking and they are black and damp with fuel
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Report this Post11-05-2022 07:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JWTMedic

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quote
Originally posted by Patrick:


I posted my method Here for setting the static timing.


Thank you you, I read through the entire thread that you posted a link to.
I have set initial timing to both 0 and 10 degrees and still nothing, in both cases TDC was verified by bore scope and holding my finger over the hole, it pushed my finger out of the hole, I have also checked compression in cylinder 1,3,5 and have great compression. The rotor is pointing toward the little rubber line on the intake plenum and the rotor limes up with spark plug wire #1 on the distributor cap.
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Report this Post11-05-2022 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierosoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Do you have SPARK at the plugs?

------------------
My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

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Report this Post11-13-2022 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XxdjxX89Send a Private Message to XxdjxX89Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What you want to do is put motor at tdc cyl 1 and see where the rotar on dist is pointing to ,,, if not pointing at number 1 plug wire then move dist to point at number 1
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Report this Post11-13-2022 08:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It points directly at the number one cylinder on thr distributor

QUOTE]Originally posted by XxdjxX89:

What you want to do is put motor at tdc cyl 1 and see where the rotar on dist is pointing to ,,, if not pointing at number 1 plug wire then move dist to point at number 1[/QUOTE]

[This message has been edited by JWTMedic (edited 11-13-2022).]

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Report this Post11-13-2022 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XxdjxX89Send a Private Message to XxdjxX89Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Put motor around 12 degrees btdc pointing at number one spark plug on the cap ,,, reason for this is because timing will retard a lot when started
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Report this Post11-13-2022 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for XxdjxX89Send a Private Message to XxdjxX89Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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Another thing test to make sure you have spark ,, also verify check engine light comes on with key in on position
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Report this Post11-13-2022 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

I have set initial timing to both 0 and 10 degrees and still nothing...


Don't know why you'd even try with 0°.

You haven't answered a question posed to you earlier. Do you have spark at the plugs? And if so, it needs to be strong enough to jump a 1/4" gap under atmospheric pressure.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-13-2022).]

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Report this Post11-13-2022 09:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I tried "0" degrees because that was mentioned in a previous thread.... I agree doesn't make sense but I was desperate. And yes there is spark at the plug, I took it out with the wire attached and grounded it out on the block and had spark, I did that with #1,3,5 plugs all had spark

[sup][/sup]
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Don't know why you'd even try with 0°.

You haven't answered a question posed to you earlier. Do you have spark at the plugs? And if so, it needs to be strong enough to jump a 1/4" gap under atmospheric pressure.



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Report this Post11-13-2022 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

And yes there is spark at the plug, I took it out with the wire attached and grounded it out on the block and had spark, I did that with #1,3,5 plugs all had spark.


That means next to nothing.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

And if so, it needs to be strong enough to jump a 1/4" gap under atmospheric pressure.

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Report this Post11-13-2022 09:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for greenturnedblueSend a Private Message to greenturnedblueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We have been over this time and time again with people with similar issues. If you 'have spark' but it is very weak, it will not be able to make the jump from the rotor to the contacts inside the distributor cap or even across the spark plug. A yellow or orange spark is weak and will likely not be powerful enough to jump across the gap. A nice bright white spark on the other hand has enough voltage to make the jump. A weak spark would indicate a failing ignition coil
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Report this Post11-24-2022 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So replaced the coil twice in the last week even though the one that was in the car was less than a year old, this was based on your recommendation and nothing still just cranks... sorry we have been over this time and time again
It has a brand new battery, new plugs and wires, distributor, cap and rotor. Again, it ran and drove fine, I pulled it into the garage and noticed the cold start Injector was leaking at the fuel rail tube due to a torn O ring, replaced the O ring and now will only crank... nothing changed but the O ring, which was from the Fiero Store so I know it was the correct size. My local mechanic says he doesn't want to take the time in the shop to try amd trouble shoot it. I told him everything that has been done as well as gave him all of ya alls recommendations.
 
quote
Originally posted by greenturnedblue:

We have been over this time and time again with people with similar issues. If you 'have spark' but it is very weak, it will not be able to make the jump from the rotor to the contacts inside the distributor cap or even across the spark plug. A yellow or orange spark is weak and will likely not be powerful enough to jump across the gap. A nice bright white spark on the other hand has enough voltage to make the jump. A weak spark would indicate a failing ignition coil


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Report this Post11-24-2022 06:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for greenturnedblueSend a Private Message to greenturnedblueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Look at Patrick and I's posts directly above yours. If you have spark but it is weak, the car will not start

What I mean when I say we have been over this time and time again in the past, is that someone will post their car wont start and ask for help. They say "yes I have spark" without realizing spark itself is pretty irrelevant. It must jump from the distributor rotor to the contact on the inside of the rotor cap, and also from the plug to the ground to ignite the fuel in the cylinder. If none of these are possible the car will not start.

So, check to make sure you have a nice, strong spark. Disconnect the plug wire from the plug, stick a metal screwdriver inside it, hold the metal rod of the screwdriver approx 1/4" away from a ground point (plenum bolt will work). Get a helper to crank it while you are holding the screwdriver, and observe the color of the spark. It should be bright white. Not amber, or yellow, or orange, or else the car will not start

If you do have a strong white spark, then try holding the accelerator pedal all the way down while you crank it for a good 5 or 10 seconds. This will put it in "clear flood" mode and disable the injectors to burn off excess fuel if the cylinders are flooded. I say this because earlier you mentioned the plugs were all damp with fuel. That will also result in a crank no start condition.

[This message has been edited by greenturnedblue (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 07:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the response, shouldn't a new coil remedy the poor spark? Everything is new, what would cause poor spark, and yes I have what appears to be white'ish.. maybe I will try to upload a video, will keep you posted

 
quote
Originally posted by greenturnedblue:

Look at Patrick and I's posts directly above yours. If you have spark but it is weak, the car will not start

What I mean when I say we have been over this time and time again in the past, is that someone will post their car wont start and ask for help. They say "yes I have spark" without realizing spark itself is pretty irrelevant. It must jump from the distributor rotor to the contact on the inside of the rotor cap, and also from the plug to the ground to ignite the fuel in the cylinder. If none of these are possible the car will not start.

So, check to make sure you have a nice, strong spark. Disconnect the plug wire from the plug, stick a metal screwdriver inside it, hold the metal rod of the screwdriver approx 1/4" away from a ground point (plenum bolt will work). Get a helper to crank it while you are holding the screwdriver, and observe the color of the spark. It should be bright white. Not amber, or yellow, or orange, or else the car will not start

If you do have a strong white spark, then try holding the accelerator pedal all the way down while you crank it for a good 5 or 10 seconds. This will put it in "clear flood" mode and disable the injectors to burn off excess fuel if the cylinders are flooded. I say this because earlier you mentioned the plugs were all damp with fuel. That will also result in a crank no start condition.



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Report this Post11-24-2022 08:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JWTMedic

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[This message has been edited by JWTMedic (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

JWTMedic

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Please see pics below, looks like a really good spark to me

QUOTE]Originally posted by greenturnedblue:

Look at Patrick and I's posts directly above yours. If you have spark but it is weak, the car will not start

What I mean when I say we have been over this time and time again in the past, is that someone will post their car wont start and ask for help. They say "yes I have spark" without realizing spark itself is pretty irrelevant. It must jump from the distributor rotor to the contact on the inside of the rotor cap, and also from the plug to the ground to ignite the fuel in the cylinder. If none of these are possible the car will not start.

So, check to make sure you have a nice, strong spark. Disconnect the plug wire from the plug, stick a metal screwdriver inside it, hold the metal rod of the screwdriver approx 1/4" away from a ground point (plenum bolt will work). Get a helper to crank it while you are holding the screwdriver, and observe the color of the spark. It should be bright white. Not amber, or yellow, or orange, or else the car will not start

If you do have a strong white spark, then try holding the accelerator pedal all the way down while you crank it for a good 5 or 10 seconds. This will put it in "clear flood" mode and disable the injectors to burn off excess fuel if the cylinders are flooded. I say this because earlier you mentioned the plugs were all damp with fuel. That will also result in a crank no start condition.

[/QUOTE]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for greenturnedblueSend a Private Message to greenturnedblueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

shouldn't a new coil remedy the poor spark?


You would think but you never know...

Anyways, yes looks good. Can you pull the rear plugs and post pictures of the tips? I suspect they are fouled from all the cranking. First, quickly crank it 5-10 seconds with the accelerator fully depressed to try and clear the flood. If it starts to fart and gurgle you are on the right track
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Report this Post11-24-2022 08:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

My local mechanic says he doesn't want to take the time in the shop to try amd trouble shoot it.


He sounds like a useless tool. Isn't that what a real mechanic is supposed to do?

A lot of time and effort is being spent on the ignition. I would've had a fuel pressure gauge on there long ago, not only to see what the fuel pressure reaches, but also to see if it dissipates too quickly (indicating leakage somewhere) when power to the fuel pump is cut.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Great point, it has good pressure but not sure about it maintaining pressure, I will have rent a pressure gauge from O'Reilly.
Ya, the mechanic is just way to busy for a project, they have cars parked all around their parking waiting to get in to be fixed, Mine would just be parked next to the others.

 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

He sounds like a useless tool. Isn't that what a real mechanic is supposed to do?

A lot of time and effort is being spent on the ignition. I would've had a fuel pressure gauge on there long ago, not only to see what the fuel pressure reaches, but also to see if it dissipates too quickly (indicating leakage somewhere) when power to the fuel pump is cut.



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Report this Post11-24-2022 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

I will have rent a pressure gauge from O'Reilly.


From what I've read here over the years, it seems that it's quite common in the States for auto supply stores down there to loan out fuel pressure testers free of charge. Maybe try phoning around a few places.
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Report this Post11-24-2022 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for greenturnedblueSend a Private Message to greenturnedblueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, he did say starter fluid made no difference, and that the spark plugs were fouled and coated in fuel...
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Report this Post11-24-2022 11:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JWTMedicSend a Private Message to JWTMedicEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, I have sprayed starter fluid. I have also disconnected the fuel pump and cranked it with the gas pedal to the floor to dry out the plugs then with the fuel pump fuse out i then sprayed starter fluid in the throttle body with no change just cranked. I am sorry guys I am not a amateur, I have worked on cars for the last 30+ years and have always figured out the issue fairly quickly. It has just been with the pontiac 6cyl. Two different fieros both suddenly just did a crank no start. I am hoping it is the fuel pressure not keeping pressure. It has good pressure when you turn the key to on. I will rent a fuel pressure checker this weekend and will let you know, thanks all!! And Happy Thanksgiving

However, I should have had some sputtering or starting when fuse was out and spraying starter fluid?

 
quote
Originally posted by greenturnedblue:

Well, he did say starter fluid made no difference, and that the spark plugs were fouled and coated in fuel...

[This message has been edited by JWTMedic (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by greenturnedblue:

....and that the spark plugs were fouled and coated in fuel...


Well yeah, I'm wondering if one or more injectors (or maybe a ruptured fuel pressure regulator diaphragm) are pouring fuel into the cylinders.

No fuel is a problem, as well as too much!

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-24-2022 11:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Patrick

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quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

I am sorry guys I am not a amateur, I have worked on cars for the last 30+ years...


Don't take any advice or suggestions or questions too personally. People looking for help here have rather varied histories in regards to practical experience working on cars/engines. It's just simpler to respond with the assumption (perhaps incorrectly at times) that the person looking for help knows next to nothing.... because quite often, that is exactly the situation.

I've been working on cars for more than 50 years, and there's a lot of stuff I don't know much about.

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-24-2022).]

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Report this Post11-25-2022 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for greenturnedblueSend a Private Message to greenturnedblueEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:


However, I should have had some sputtering or starting when fuse was out and spraying starter fluid?




That would be ideal! Sorry if my attitude suggests a lack of knowledge/skill, we are all on the same team here and a lot of the time the solution is something very basic. I just helped someone in one of the fiero Facebook groups with a similar problem and all he had to do was hold the gas pedal down for a few seconds to clear the cylinder and she started right up. A lot of the time something goes wrong, people don't know what to do, and post asking "what do?"

Anyways, we know spark is fine up til the plugs and fuel is fine up til the injectors. Whatever is going on inside the cylinder remains to be seem. I would still pull the plugs and take a look. When I was diagnosing my car and found drops of coolant on them I knew I had a serious problem. Maybe they are fouled to the point they are not sparking at all. And perhaps that is caused by a faulty injector dumping fuel in as Patrick suggests
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Report this Post11-25-2022 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArthurPealeSend a Private Message to ArthurPealeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JWTMedic:

It points directly at the number one cylinder on thr distributor

[QUOTE]Originally posted by XxdjxX89:

What you want to do is put motor at tdc cyl 1 and see where the rotar on dist is pointing to ,,, if not pointing at number 1 plug wire then move dist to point at number 1


[/QUOTE]

I think this might be the issue - when you say "It points directly at the number one cylinder on thr distributor " - what exactly do you mean by that?

The distributor doesn't have a set position for any plug, you have to manually note in which position the rotor is facing when the piston is at TDC for cylinder one.

Then, connect the wire for that plug to that specific position on the cap. Follow up by wiring the rest in sequence.


if you've done that, indeed, it might be your ignition coil

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Report this Post11-25-2022 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ArthurPeale:

The distributor doesn't have a set position for any plug, you have to manually note in which position the rotor is facing when the piston is at TDC for cylinder one. Then, connect the wire for that plug to that specific position on the cap.


I understand what you're saying, but to be clear, you do have a choice of where you want #1 to be located on the distributor. You're not at the whim of where the rotor just happens to be pointing while at TDC of #1 cylinder (on the compression stroke).

In the link I supplied earlier to the OP, the following image appears. It's been determined by many people that this is the optimal position for #1 to be located on the 2.8's distributor in regards to the wiring harness and plug wires etc. If your rotor is pointing elsewhere for #1, you're not forced to forever leave it there. It's just a matter of pulling the distributor up out of the hole far enough to disengage the gears... and then reposition the rotor so that when it's dropped back down, it's pointing where you want (which in my image below, is the bolt that the arrow is indicating).

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-25-2022).]

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Report this Post11-25-2022 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ArthurPealeSend a Private Message to ArthurPealeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

In the link I supplied earlier to the OP, the following image appears. It's been determined by many people that this is the optimal position for #1 to be located on the 2.8's distributor in regards to the wiring harness and plug wires etc. If your rotor is pointing elsewhere for #1, you're not forced to forever leave it there. It's just a matter of pulling the distributor up out of the hole far enough to disengage the gears... and then reposition the rotor so that when it's dropped back down, it's pointing where you want (which in my image below, is the bolt that the arrow is indicating).



Okay, yes, in that way you can absolutely choose which position is #1. I'll admit that, for the purposes of testing, and since OP seems to be having some difficulty so far, I was trying to narrow down the possibilities to be able to get the car to at least fire off. It's an easy mistake to do, especially when you're just starting out. I know that I did it.
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Report this Post11-25-2022 06:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for A_Lonely_PotatoSend a Private Message to A_Lonely_PotatoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
funky, i have mine oriented differently. learning to rephase the 'stributor was something i had to do because when i pulled it out to change the o-ring, i haphazardly gave the gear a good spin

i pulled my plugs checking for spark when this happened. really everything seemed identical to what you have going on. i had spark, compression, and good fuel. my timing was just totally off because the foolish whirling i did. if you havent done so yet, give rephasing a go. doesn't take too long.
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