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Turbo Slug's 3800 rebuild by Frenchrafe
Started on: 11-19-2021 02:47 AM
Replies: 22 (297 views)
Last post by: claude dalpe on 11-27-2021 09:16 PM
Frenchrafe
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Report this Post11-19-2021 02:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi everyone,
So after destroying my 3800 at the track, and lamenting about it for a month or so...:

https://youtu.be/-ntGyh9gKVk
https://youtu.be/5whnnISWNrM

I am in the process of rebuilding the engine. Here's the processus of getting the engine out of the car and stripping the thing down:

https://youtu.be/2soKocY14AY
https://youtu.be/q7fNBxS3Iho
https://youtu.be/TXsih99T46g

A couple of photos of the engine partially stripped and some badly worn shell bearings!




I spent all my birthday and Christmas money on new parts and a much needed new crankshaft!
Yes the crank was too far gone to be reground. I had it checked by a machine shop who said, like I thought, that the thing was "dead". He even said that the oil starvation was not a new thing, looking at the state of the journals!

The progress is going fine and I recently completed the block prep (honing etc....):

https://youtu.be/1RkEWWIwt5A



The next stage is to modify my oil pan to never ever have an oil starvation again! I'm adding 5cm of depth to the pan and will be including baffles etc...
I'm doing this before refitting all the new parts because I need the block and the oil pickup in place to adjust my metalwork. And I don't want to risk damaging the new parts. I haven't got what you would call a white/clean room for engine rebuilding! So the dirty/dusty work needs to happen now before assembly.

I'll post some pics soon and the next vid, when it's ready. I'm no pro youtuber and making a video takes some time.

Regards,
Rafe


------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France!
https://www.youtube.com/cha...1wZvWQlkYxTjivW_0XNg

[This message has been edited by Frenchrafe (edited 11-19-2021).]

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Report this Post11-19-2021 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's a lotta damage!

I think the oil pan baffles are a good idea. Also, you might want to look into an AccuSump setup.
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Frenchrafe
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Report this Post11-19-2021 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yep! All the mains and rod bearings suffered.
It was quite depressing to see what had been going on at each sharp bend!
The accu-sump has been suggested before by La Fiera (Rei).

------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France!
https://youtu.be/c4Cu7_2OgYc
https://www.youtube.com/cha...1wZvWQlkYxTjivW_0XNg

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DimeMachine
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Report this Post11-20-2021 06:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DimeMachineSend a Private Message to DimeMachineEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Curious - did your oil pressure gauge show low to no oil pressure at times where the g forces were causing oil starvation?

Good luck on the rebuild and oil pan mods /accusump to solve the issue!
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Frenchrafe
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Report this Post11-20-2021 08:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:

Curious - did your oil pressure gauge show low to no oil pressure at times where the g forces were causing oil starvation?


The oil pressure gauge moved a little when cornering hard, but nothing alarming (it seemed🤔).
No warning light or anything reading in the ECU.
However, it is clear that there was intermitent oil pressure loss that the gauge was not sensitive and/or fast enough to register.
Over time, the "micro" oil starvations led to excesive wear...., and then bang!

------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France!
https://youtu.be/c4Cu7_2OgYc
https://www.youtube.com/cha...1wZvWQlkYxTjivW_0XNg

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post11-20-2021 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The stock oil pressure gauge is very damped. You might need an aftermarket gauge to confirm that your new setup will be effective.
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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-20-2021 10:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Frenchrafe

Sorry for turbo slug, you did a lot of work to get it where it was.
In your video you mention that you did an afternoon of passage to the bench and I imagine that there was (ECM) tuning in his tests? (The worst thing for engine oil)
After, you didn't doing an oil change.
I think the problem is mainly because of this negligence and after "the oil starvations" did the rest of the job. In your videos we can see the oil pressure is good and drops slightly in the curves, but since the time that you are racing with turbo slug the oil pressure should have dropped gradually because of the gradual wear of the bearings.
But the 3800 has resist an afternoon of passage to the bench without giving up the ghost.
This is what I think, engine oil is like our blood, it is very important! Before and after a passage to the bench the oil should be replaced!


Désolé pour turbo slug, tu as fais beaucoup de travailler pour le rendre ou il était.
Dans ton vidéo tu mentionne que tu as fais une après midi de passage au banc et j'imagine qu'il y a eu du tuning d'ECM dans ses essaies? (La pire chose pour l'huile moteur)
Après tu mentionne que tu n'as pas fais de changement d'huile, moi je pense que le problème est surtout a cause de cette négligence et après "the oil starvations " a fait le reste de la job.
Dans tes vidéos on voit bien que la pression d'huile est bonne et baisse légèrement dans les courbes, mais depuis le temps que tu fais de la course avec turbo slug la pression d'huile aurait du baisser graduellement a cause de l'usure des coussinets
Mais le 3800 a résister a une après midi de passage au banc sans rendre l'âme.
Voila ce que je pense, l'huile moteur c'est comme notre sang c'est très important! Avant et après le passage au banc , l'huile devrait être remplacer!
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Frenchrafe
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Report this Post11-20-2021 12:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FrenchrafeClick Here to Email FrenchrafeSend a Private Message to FrenchrafeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Merci Claude😉
Oui, tu as raison.
Toujours faire la vidange entre les évènements !😁
Sinon, on pleure 😭

Thanks Claude😉
Yes, you're right.
Change your oil between each race!😁
Otherwise we cry😭

------------------
"Turbo Slug" - '87 Fiero GT. 3800 turbo. - The fastest Fiero in France!
https://youtu.be/c4Cu7_2OgYc
https://www.youtube.com/cha...1wZvWQlkYxTjivW_0XNg

[This message has been edited by Frenchrafe (edited 11-20-2021).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post11-23-2021 11:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Rafe and I had some conversations (emails) about what caused the damaged and we kind of agree with Claude. Fresh hi quality oil is paramount before demanding 150% from any engine. Oil serves various different purposes. Oil is a shock absorber, a cooler and a lubricator. If the oil gets diluted, which happens a lot on turbo cars due to the extra fuel tuners add to cool the combustion chambers; it'll loose life its efficiency. Oil won't be able to cushion, lubricate or cool.
This past weekend I took my car out on my driveway to test a new tune. I started the car and let it warmed up and after about 15 minutes I noticed a pool of liquid on the concrete that came out of the valve cover breather hoses. I was alarmed and ran my fingers in it and proceed to smell it. It smelled like pure alcohol !!!.
My conclusion was that since I was running the engine hard on the dyno to break it in, I made a tune to be on the rich side to protect it. That pool of "alcohol" was in fact moisture drawn by the E85 on the humid and cold days and also the safe enrichened tune I was using at that time. Right now the oil does have a smell like alcohol but it looks pretty clean but for me that means that if I'm going to do hard driving, dyno testing or track time I have to change the oil.
My habits have always been change the oil before a track day and then change it right after that.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 11-23-2021).]

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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-24-2021 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As I already said above engine oil is like our blood "very important" in an engine as you mention it so well Rei in your message and especially during a tune made on dyno. Very good info Rei in your message.

I always pay attention to my oil changes (use with the engine / seasons / KM).
What many people neglect especially today when the builders tell us that we can do our oil changes every 15,000KM or 1 year

Comme je l'ai déjà dit plus haut, l'huile moteur est comme notre sang, "très important" dans un moteur, comme tu le mentionne si bien Rei dans ton message et surtout lors d'un tune fait sur dyno. Très bon info Rei, dans ton message.

Je fais toujours attention à mes vidanges d'huile (utilisation avec le moteur / les saisons / KM).
Ce que beaucoup de gens négligent surtout aujourd'hui quand les constructeurs nous disent qu'on peut faire nos vidanges tous les 15 000KM ou 1 an
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La fiera
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Report this Post11-24-2021 01:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Totally agree with you Claude!
Another aspect that we take for granted is the viscosity required for the intented use.
What do I mean? Think about this scenario; the manufacturer's manual recommends 10w30 but now you have a turbo charger and you are constantly in the mid and upper RPM range demanding full power. You do this for 4 sessions of 30 minutes each in a span of 6 hours during a hot summer day. The rest of the week you barelly drive it exept to a car show here and there.
Question is; will you still use10W30 or use a different viscosity to compensate for the use of your engine?
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Report this Post11-24-2021 02:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ignorant prodigyClick Here to Email ignorant prodigySend a Private Message to ignorant prodigyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
pretty cool insights guys, thanks for sharing
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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-25-2021 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To begin with Rei, if a manufacturer recommends the 10w30 it is not a modern car we agree.
So if that's what the manufacturer is asking for and I know I'm going to abuse the motor as you described in your scenario.
I would use if it was in the 80's / 90's, 10w40 oil but today I would prefer to use 5w40 synthetic oil.

But the most important is to warm up the engine well all the times before abusing it especially if you use a thicker grade of oil.
An example cold pistons are not not round but oval and becomes round as it warms up.

I think that if the engine will be abused I prefer that the grade of oil be a little thicker (40 instead of 30) to tolerate the abuse of power, but not too thick because the oil will circulate less quickly and will overheat more than lighter oil which circulates more quickly.
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La fiera
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Report this Post11-25-2021 08:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by claude dalpe:

To begin with Rei, if a manufacturer recommends the 10w30 it is not a modern car we agree.
So if that's what the manufacturer is asking for and I know I'm going to abuse the motor as you described in your scenario.
I would use if it was in the 80's / 90's, 10w40 oil but today I would prefer to use 5w40 synthetic oil.

But the most important is to warm up the engine well all the times before abusing it especially if you use a thicker grade of oil.
An example cold pistons are not not round but oval and becomes round as it warms up.

I think that if the engine will be abused I prefer that the grade of oil be a little thicker (40 instead of 30) to tolerate the abuse of power, but not too thick because the oil will circulate less quickly and will overheat more than lighter oil which circulates more quickly.


I agree with you Claude! The thicker oil will circulate less but it will cushion and resist evaporation better than the lighter oil due to the hi heat generation of the demand of power. Once the oil overheats it can no longer do its job. It won't suspend the dirt in the matrix, it will not cushion because its viscosity will flat line loosing its plasticity and once it cools off it will turn into black goo without life.
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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-26-2021 09:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are some of my conclusion Rei few years ago I did tests with my Chevrolet V8 which had an engine and transmission oil temperature gauge.
I used this car to tow often, which is the reason for the temperature gauges.
What I have noticed with years of towing and different viscosity testing during oil changes.
The thicker the oil, the better the oil pressure but tend to have a higher oil temperature.
The manufacturer (GM) recommended 10w30 and I tried up to 20w50 in this engine.
It is with my results that I saw that the oil that is too thick is not necessarily better yes it keeps a good pressure under the crankshaft bearings but heats up more since it circulates less quickly.
I would have probably had to do more testing with an engine oil cooler as I had one for the transmission, the conclusions might have been different.
Today with the new variable cam motors it's impossible to change to much the viscosity without having problems with this system.
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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-26-2021 10:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

claude dalpe

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Member since Feb 2009
Curiosity frenchrafe : What grade of oil do you use in your 3800 turbo slug

Curiosité frenchrafe : Quel grade d'huile utilise tu dans ton 3800 turbo slug
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Report this Post11-26-2021 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by claude dalpe:
It is with my results that I saw that the oil that is too thick is not necessarily better yes it keeps a good pressure under the crankshaft bearings but heats up more since it circulates less quickly.
I would have probably had to do more testing with an engine oil cooler as I had one for the transmission, the conclusions might have been different.
Today with the new variable cam motors it's impossible to change to much the viscosity without having problems with this system.


Yes, you are right Claude. But the increase in temperature of the thicker oil doesn't mean it is a bad thing.
Water will boil much faster than olive oil but water will dissipate the heat faster than olive oil. While the water turns into vapor and dissapears at 212F the thicker olive oil is still liquid, and it will stay liquid up to about 375F! Also once that thick oil heats up its pressure drops which means its moving faster.
If you use a thicker oil and it gets very hot lets say 230F you start to release out the oil any compounds that boil below 230F, like fuel in the oil and moisture, etc.
The contrary is true with a thinner oil. So the take away is that regardless if you use thin or thick oil, what you want to avoid is using an oil for your aplication that will vaporize due to high temperatures. A lack of oil due to high heat vaporization between the crank journal and the bearing its an automatic failure. The journal only needs to hammer that bearing once for everyting else to go wrong.


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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-26-2021 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:
Water will boil much faster than olive oil but water will dissipate the heat faster than olive oil. While the water turns into vapor and dissapears at 212F the thicker olive oil is still liquid



I liked your comparison water/ oil Rei
This is why I mentioned that I liked having an oil cooler to do my oil tests on my V8. it is also for this reason that I do not really like the new 0w20 oil standards and even the new 0w16
I hope the oil makers add a lot of additives to increase their boiling points.

And when you said Rei:
So the take away is that regardless if you use thin or thick oil, what you want to avoid is using an oil for your aplication that will vaporize due to high temperatures.
I think that's why you have to buy very good quality oil and the right thickness.

[This message has been edited by claude dalpe (edited 11-26-2021).]

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La fiera
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Report this Post11-26-2021 09:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by claude dalpe:


I liked your comparison water/ oil Rei
This is why I mentioned that I liked having an oil cooler to do my oil tests on my V8. it is also for this reason that I do not really like the new 0w20 oil standards and even the new 0w16
I hope the oil makers add a lot of additives to increase their boiling points.

And when you said Rei:
So the take away is that regardless if you use thin or thick oil, what you want to avoid is using an oil for your aplication that will vaporize due to high temperatures.
I think that's why you have to buy very good quality oil and the right thickness.



Exactly!
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Report this Post11-26-2021 10:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You may ask, how do I know about oil? I invented this product for 4 stroke kart engines. I won the local 2014 4 Stroke kart championship locally and in 2015 they banned me from racing at that track while leading the championship. My competitor was non other than Amsoil and I kicked his ass!
Of course, I had to drive the kart to win but the oil gave a very little % advevantage. And in a 10HP engine every minute % counts.

https://www.boxstockproject...product_detail&p=286
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claude dalpe
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Report this Post11-27-2021 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
https://www.boxstockproject...product_detail&p=286

I found that you knew well the oil Rei.
I am neither an expert nor a chemist but a good mechanic with a good experience of the engines and their operations and the experience of the years (63 years old)
We make a good team Rei
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Report this Post11-27-2021 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by claude dalpe:

https://www.boxstockproject...product_detail&p=286

I found that you knew well the oil Rei.
I am neither an expert nor a chemist but a good mechanic with a good experience of the engines and their operations and the experience of the years (63 years old)
We make a good team Rei


Yes but I have to look up to you because you older and with more experience! You are the Boss!!

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Report this Post11-27-2021 09:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for claude dalpeClick Here to Email claude dalpeSend a Private Message to claude dalpeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes but I have to look up to you because you know surely something that I don't know
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