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Problems with clutch master or system holding pressure by handymanpat
Started on: 11-01-2021 09:32 PM
Replies: 32 (331 views)
Last post by: Patrick on 11-24-2021 09:08 PM
handymanpat
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Report this Post11-01-2021 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have an 86 gt 5 speed getrag
I put a new slave cylinder on and the master looked like it was pretty new.
I replaced the entire clutch line because there had been a repair done to the line in the past and because the line for smashed when the paint guy lifted the car.
I have bled it by pressing having someone slowly press the peddle and I sit the open and close on the slave.
We did this at least 20 tiles.
We also put the car up on a very steep incline (twice the angle of a car on the typical ramps) and ran a quart of fluid through the system using just gravity.
We have also used the peddle pressing method while it was on the incline.
We have run a couple quarts of fluid through the system and each time we attempt to bleed the system I then take the car out for a drive.
At best it will make it around the block and by the time I make it back I have went from full peddle to hardly any pressure at all and I have lost the ability to shift at all.
As you can imaging after hours of doing this over several days and trying to read up about this topic and try different things I am hoping someone in here can offer some advice.
Also, the push rod is not leaking and I do not see leaking around the connections on the line.
What could be the problem?
Could the master be leaking and not it showing signs?
I would sure appreciate some advice.
I have bled lines before and never had problems like this!
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-01-2021 09:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is there any sign of fluid in the interior up by the clutch pedal pushrod?
You will have to pull the carpet back a bit to see.
Did you follow the Archie method for clutch slave bleeding?
(That's the method we're you push the slave pushrod into the slave to eliminate trapped air)
Is the line leaking by the front lower frame rail where the braided flex hose is located?
(Most replacement lines have fittings there that may need to be snugged up)
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Report this Post11-01-2021 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I did check the pushrod area under the dash and it was good.
The lines and connections all look good and I did read about the system about pushing the slave pin back in but when I took a look at trying to do it I saw that the rod appeared to be pressed completely in and I had even take the bleeder screw out of the slave and tried to get a prybar between the little push rod and the rounded arm it fit into but it did not seem to want to press back any further into the slave.
Could the master be going bad?
I am getting air spurts out when we peddle bleed it and once it hits a solid flow if fluid I think I have it and the nature enough, the pressure goes away BUT if I sit and wait and then press again sometimes I again have full pressure!!

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Report this Post11-01-2021 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

handymanpat

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Also, it's funny you ask about the braided line up there.
When I installed the line I somehow out a twist in that section and that was the reason I cracked the line open at the master so I could take the twist out of it!

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Report this Post11-01-2021 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

I did read about the system about pushing the slave pin back in but when I took a look at trying to do it I saw that the rod appeared to be pressed completely in and I had even take the bleeder screw out of the slave and tried to get a prybar between the little push rod and the rounded arm it fit into but it did not seem to want to press back any further into the slave.


If the slave push rod can't be pushed back into the slave while the clutch is disengaged, something's not right.

Did you by any chance replace the push rod with a longer one?
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Report this Post11-01-2021 10:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, it is possible the pushrod is not correct.
I know when I took the old slave off I swear I put the same length rod in as I took off BUT there was confusion about the slave because I guess that there were two different ones that could be used?
I did have to buy a couple different slaves because the first one was different than the one I took off!
I do have two different style slaves that AutoZone says go on that 86 one is shorter than the other and won't mount into the car correctly.
The other thing is why is it holding pressure and shifting perfectly but then just loses pressure and then will pressure up again?
It is maddening!
You would not happen to have a photos of the correct slave?
Dang man, this should not be this big a deal. I just don't know what I am doing wrong!
This car drive perfectly before.
Thanks Pat,

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Report this Post11-01-2021 10:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

Well, it is possible the pushrod is not correct.
I know when I took the old slave off I swear I put the same length rod in as I took off BUT there was confusion about the slave because I guess that there were two different ones that could be used?
I did have to buy a couple different slaves because the first one was different than the one I took off!



I don't know offhand what the other issues are... but I do know that you've got to have some free play with the slave, otherwise you run the risk of the clutch never fully engaging (and therefore burning out the clutch and/or wearing out the release bearing).

 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

I do have two different style slaves that AutoZone says go on that 86 one is shorter than the other and won't mount into the car correctly.


The problem with buying a slave for an '86 2.8 Fiero is that both a 4 and a 5 spd were available that year. Who knows what the parts catalogs show. If you indeed have a 5-spd Getrag, I'd suggest looking up the proper slave for your '86 Fiero in the '88 listings.

What's the brand and part number of the slave you've installed?

Not to give you a bad time, but when replacing the slave cylinder, it's almost imperative that you buy it from Rodney Dickman. The double seal on the piston of his custom made slaves makes a world of difference!



[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-01-2021).]

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Report this Post11-01-2021 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been buying a bunch of stuff from Rodney lately so what's one more thing!
Hahahaha.
Tomorrow I'm going to go and look at the two styles I have.
I am very sure I have the shorter version you posted in the car now and I also the longer skinnier one I was telling you about (this is the one I had bought by mistake)
Now I'm very interested to know what is happening!
Could the wrong master or pushrod cause this problem?
Also, how would air be getting I to the system? Could it be getting in through the slave somehow?
I even bought a different bleeder thinking it was somehow letting air in!
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-01-2021 11:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

Also, how would air be getting I to the system? Could it be getting in through the slave somehow?


The original single seal slaves were/are notorious for allowing air to be sucked in, even if fluid wasn't leaking out. This is the reason why Rodney had double seal slaves made in the first place... and is why I suggest that replacement slave cylinders only be bought from him.
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Report this Post11-01-2021 11:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm sure glad you guys know so much and are will to share with no us!
Rodney will have another order coming.
I will let you know what happens but guessing it is PROBLEM SOLVED!
Hahahaha.
I knew it had to be something simple and my new master sucking in air makes total sense!
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-02-2021 08:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The smart thing to do is to buy a new master and slave from Rodney when doing clutch work.
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Report this Post11-02-2021 09:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I went on Rodney's site last night and put in my order for the slave.
I had no idea the junky rebuilds had that problem.
I did not order a new master but I did the slave.
It makes a lot of no sense and explains my issues I'm having.
Thank you guys so much and I will post my results!
Pat

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Report this Post11-02-2021 01:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadClick Here to Email olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post11-02-2021 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brian DSend a Private Message to Brian DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just a question, but how exactly are you bleeding the system? Bleeding the clutch line is a bit different than bleeding brakes. You want to open the bleeder, then press the pedal down, close the bleeder, then let the pedal return quickly. If you press the pedal down first, then open the bleeder, you will likely aerate the fluid. A one man bleeder is a huge help here, I would highly recommend one.
If bleeding checks out then I'd go with the recommendation of the others that your master is probably shot. They tend to fail together.
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Report this Post11-02-2021 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I tried several methods including sucking it from the slave with a brake hand pump, gravity bleeding, pedal bleeding.
With the pedal bleeding we did single slow pumps where we pushed down the pedal and held it and I cracked the slave bleeder just enough to pop the pressure and then after closing the bleeder we would slowly lift the pedal and repeat.
We have also tried doing slow 3 pumps and faster pumps and each time the pressure built and held it would disappear after a trip around the block.
The crazy thing is that it would then again build pressure again while I sat and pumped for a little bit but once again would not hold.
I am convinced it is the remanufactured slave I got from AutoZone and it is somehow sucking just enough air in to wreck the pressure.
I would spurt a little bit of air or bubbles when I would bleed the slave again.
I will use the Rodney slave and try these methods you guys mentioned and post my results.
I sense victory soon!

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Report this Post11-02-2021 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

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I forgot to mention that I did order some one man bleeder valves but I have not tried the method of opening the valve, having the pedal pressed and then closing the valve and quickly l lifting the pedal.
I will try that tomorrow and let you know!
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-02-2021 11:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LarryinkcSend a Private Message to LarryinkcEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I used V8 Archie's method with Rodney's master and slave, clutch has worked great for several years so far.

http://www.v8archie.com/v8Archie/ToC6.htm
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Report this Post11-03-2021 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for SpadesluckSend a Private Message to SpadesluckEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pat, I just replaced my master with Rodney's a couple days ago. I had already used Rodney's slave rebuild kit a few years ago. It is fairly easy to accomplish. I bench bleed the master then put it in the car, and then had my wife pump the clutch for me to bleed the slave. Super easy with parts that are in working order.
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Report this Post11-03-2021 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm looking forward to getting this thing working.
Once I install Rodney's slave I will do the process to need it and then I'm looking forward to hitting the road!
I got an email this morning that it shipped!

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Report this Post11-03-2021 07:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Brian DSend a Private Message to Brian DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The pedal method you stated will cause the fluid to aerate. By pressing down the pedal first you are disengaging the clutch, engaging the clutch springs. When you release the bleeder the clutch is quickly reengaging as opposed to pushing fluid/air out of the system it is pushing some back into the system. The process should be open bleeder, depress pedal, close bleeder, let clutch pedal free return (not slow as you stated). Its easier with a one man bleeder cup where you can just open the bleeder and pump away as long as you keep fluid in the reservoir and don't over fill the catch cup.
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Report this Post11-03-2021 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It was raining out all day and tonight but I am very excited to just see what happens when I try that method instead of pressing the pedal and popping the bleeder.
Not only will I try that method but now I will have the new Rodney slave and the one man (speed) bleeders for use on my cars in the future.
(Did I mention I have five fieros)
Hahahaha
At some point I will need all these parts and knowledge!

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Report this Post11-04-2021 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For some reason, the gravity bleed has always worked better for me when I kept the pedal depressed (I think I used a broomstick, but most anything can work) for the entire time.
The fluid seems to flow faster, while still allowing you enough time to keep the reservoir full. (Or I might be imagining it.)

If you end up having to replace the master, I also recommend Rodney's. But be aware... every one that I have installed - or am otherwise familiar with - required the (adjustable) banjo to be extended a bit. Worked perfectly.
(But yeah... if you're getting air out of the slave, right after a drive, it sounds like the slave is leaking.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-04-2021).]

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Report this Post11-04-2021 04:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm very excited to try the methods of bleeding the system on the car that everyone is recommending.
Tonight we should be able to attempt the pedal method and if that does not work next we will ramp up the car on my "big ramps"
If it works I will just hang onto the Rodney slave since I have another car I will use that on when I finally finish the conversion I have been doing for a couple years.
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-04-2021 08:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Tonight we went out and did the pedal bleed where we would open the bleeder, press down slowly on the pedal and then shut off the bleeder.
We would release the pedal quickly and then just repeat.
We did this over and over and went through a pint sized bottle of fluid.
I was getting air or sputters with almost every pump of the brake pedal.
At some point it seemed like we were getting a solid amount of fluid without air popping out.
At this point I got in the car and we t for a very short trip down the street with the same result.
Pressure at first then diminished pedal and then when I got back it pressured up again, (just like before)
It must be air getting sucked into the slave but tomorrow I will try to bleed it again but this time not letting up the pedal so quickly.
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-04-2021 09:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Brian D:

The process should be open bleeder, depress pedal, close bleeder, let clutch pedal free return...


I do it on my own without a speed-bleeder. (I don't trust air not getting sucked past the bleeder threads.) I use a several foot long 2x4 (or something similar) to reach the clutch pedal while I'm standing by the driver side rear tire with a wrench on the bleeder... using the method quoted above. I'll give the clutch pedal a few strokes, and then I finish up using the gravity method. (Front of car higher than back, driver's side higher than passenger side.)
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Report this Post11-04-2021 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I like the gravity bleeder idea.
I originally did that when I put in that line and master new.
At that time it was all disconnected and hanging down so gravity bleeding was very easy to do!
I will get the car elevated and give it another shot this weekend and check back in!
Also, I got the speed bleeders today but the diameter is to small for the slave and will only fit my brake calipers (which is fine with me) I need to mess with the brakes on a couple of my cars
Thanks Pat

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Report this Post11-05-2021 06:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Brian DSend a Private Message to Brian DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If it helps, here is the one I use from Advance Auto. I've never had much luck with the rubber elbows that come with the kit. They always seem to leak air. I just push the end of the tube over the bleeder. Its tight, but it will go.



Good luck!
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Report this Post11-23-2021 10:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
UPDATE!

I got the new Rodney slave.
I removed the other slave and a cap of some sort fell off the "old" one.
It looks like it should be seated behind the snap ring because it does not fit past it.
I am thinking that the little cap piece was supposed to be behind the snap ring?. I still cannot understand how the push rod was even able to shove the arm to the clutch??
I put on the new Rodney slave and bled it using the techniques from here and it is working fine.
The slave that I removed was only a year old and had been working.
Also, I'm still trying to figure where the cap piece came from. It looks much older than the 1 year old slave (maybe it was stuck on the little clutch arm?)
I probably bought and installed the Rodney slave and did not need to but who would think this kind of crazy things would happen !
Here are some photos.
I just wanted to say thank you to everyone for the help and the problem is solved as far as having a working slave.
Thanks again.
Pat[img]https://images.fiero.nl/userimages/handymanpat/IMG_20211120_141715107_HDR.jp g[/img]

[This message has been edited by handymanpat (edited 11-24-2021).]

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Report this Post11-24-2021 04:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

I removed the other slave and a cap of some sort fell off the "old" one.


Pat, that "cap" doesn't belong there. (I knew something wasn't right.) I suspect that whomever installed the last slave jammed that object in there to try and get more throw from the slave. Obviously a poor idea.

By the way, to allow your images to present properly (including the one that currently doesn't appear at all), press your Enter key twice after each image upload. I'll delete your images below after you've corrected your post, but click the EDIT tab on my post to see what I've done.







[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-24-2021).]

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Report this Post11-24-2021 08:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thank you for the help with the photos and advice.
I was just happy to be able to be able to post photos, for the longest time I could not do it so I guess maybe the way to upload photos has changed since I first got on here?
I bet that cap thing was stuck/rusted onto the little arm and when I put the new master on last year I did not realize it was not part of that arm!
I am sure the slave was sucking air in because I kept having air spit out after those short runs around the block.
Things are good now and it's very exciting to have one good running fiero I can drive with confidence!
Now to get the others into that same condition. Hahahahahaha
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Report this Post11-24-2021 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

I guess maybe the way to upload photos has changed since I first got on here?


Are you not using the "Upload Image" tab which is located just below the lower left of the message input box?

And are you not going to edit/fix the images in your previous post? All you need to do is copy and paste the image URL's from my previous post... and then I'll delete your images from my post.
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Report this Post11-24-2021 05:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for handymanpatClick Here to Email handymanpatSend a Private Message to handymanpatEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm not sure.
It used to not let me do photos but someone said they made it easier so when I tried to do it this last couple times it worked great.
I can go and delete my post, should I go do that?
I will try now.
When I put up a photo I just go to upload image and it works. Before it was a big deal and it would not work for me.
Thanks Pat
QUOTE]Originally posted by Patrick:

Are you not using the "Upload Image" tab which is located just below the lower left of the message input box?

And are you not going to edit/fix the images in your previous post? All you need to do is copy and paste the image URL's from my previous post... and then I'll delete your images from my post.[/QUOTE]

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Report this Post11-24-2021 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickClick Here to Email PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by handymanpat:

I can go and delete my post, should I go do that?


No no no...

I was trying to make it easy for you to EDIT your post so that the last four of your photos would present themselves properly. (It's more noticeable on a monitor than it is on a phone.) Can you not see that one of your photos is missing in your post because the URL has been corrupted? Just copy and paste your image URLs from my post (after clicking EDIT on my post) and put them in place of the original image URLs for your last four photos. Easy peasy.
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