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Problems with Champion Radiator, PN CC828and Radiator Cap by V8Steve
Started on: 10-31-2021 06:07 PM
Replies: 14 (358 views)
Last post by: theogre on 11-18-2021 04:28 AM
V8Steve
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Report this Post10-31-2021 06:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've run into a problem never encountered before and hope others might shed some light on this

My V8 swap was first built in 1999 and then rebuilt beginning in 2015...so it's not my first rodeo, and I've done all the work myself.

The car has the above mentioned Champion radiator and I drove it throughout the spring of this year and summer, around 1500 miles with no radiator issues. During my EFI to carb conversion last month, I drained the coolant to change intake manifolds. All that went fine including the normal routine of refilling the system by raising the rear, filling to the outer most lip of the radiator neck, capping it off, and then filling the intake manifold. So far so good. I drove it around 50 miles with no issues.

Last week I was changing the fan control sensor and incurred a few leaks around the gooseneck. After the refilling of coolant and restarting the car to check out the fan control sensor, any leaks, etc., I ran into hot coolant filling the overflow and running all over the floor. When I tried to refill with gooseneck off via the usual method, I found that all the added coolant was directly overflowing the overflow tank. In short, a pint into the system went directly on the floor from the overflow tank.

Fast Forward.....after cleaning up all traces of ethylene glycol in my shop, I started over again by filling with water and using a new Murray cap for 88 Fiero.

I found that both the barely used Champion cap as well as the Murray cap did not compress their own rubber seal against the inner shoulder inside the Champion filler neck. After taking Vernier measurements from the filler outer surface to inner shoulder, I found that both caps were either line on line or had less that .010" calculated seal compression on the inner neck shoulder.

I temporarily solved it by removing the inner rubber washer from the Murray and adding it to the inner face of the Champion cap, knowing that preloading the spring will also raise the relief pressure. Anyway, it all worked, fan control went on, etc.

So:

1) Why did Champion cap, practically new, work all summer and 1500 miles, but now fail to seal and allow all pumped coolant to enter the overflow tank. BTW, all sealing surfaces are good

2) Murray cap actually had clearance at inner seal and neck shoulder so that it could never stop pumped coolant from going directly into the overflow tank.


It seems that both of these caps are too short for the Champion radiator. I will be phoning Champion tomorrow.

Has anyone encountered the need for longer reach or depth radiator caps?

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88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post11-01-2021 01:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have the Champion radiator and it will not seal using the Fiero radiator cap or a number of Stant caps that I have tried. Perhaps there is a Stant cap that will fit but no one has a part number.. The Champion low quality Chinese Quality caps work but as they age the spring tension gets less and some do leak. With the shambles that the economy is in right now who knows when we will see new caps again?
According to the info that I can find, a Stant 10231. Gates 31523, or CSF4515 is the cross reference,
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 11-01-2021).]

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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-02-2021 05:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I spoke with tech support at Champion yesterday and they tell me that standard caps are not likely to work on aluminum radiators and that I need a cap that's made for aluminum radiators. He said I could buy one from one of their competitors or from Champion. They have the caps in stock so I bought one for $14.95 including freight from Los Angeles to Massachusetts.

Meanwhile, here are some pictures of how I fixed it:

Original Champion cap had clearance between the rubber gasket and retaining disc:



Remove end of retention pin from MurrayPN 7616 and here's what's left:



Now take the Murray rubber seal and add it to the Champion. It's like stretching a tire over a rim. I used a small screwdriver to stretch and guide it over the Champion retaining disc. You end up with a second seal on the end. Since the Champion had lost all ability to compress and seal, the Murray donor made up the difference:

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fierogt28
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Report this Post11-04-2021 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogt28Click Here to Email fierogt28Send a Private Message to fierogt28Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Steve, please post a pic of the new recommended cap that Champion sent you...

------------------
fierogt28

88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed.
88 GT, 5-speed. Beechwood interior, All original.

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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-05-2021 09:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are pictures of the new one. Note it's self venting where the retention button on the inner end has some float to allow any system vacuum to draw coolant back from the overflow tank.

My added seal above negated the venting capability. In the next few days, I plan to measure the dimension from the face of the neck to the inner shoulder and then compare to the same dimension on this replacement cap. If the dimensions are correct there will be compression on the inner seal and it will work as it should.

EDIT: I noticed on my photo of the home made double seal there might still be space under that venting button, so maybe it still has venting capability. I'll know more when I take it out.



------------------
88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

[This message has been edited by V8Steve (edited 11-05-2021).]

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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-13-2021 08:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The new Champion cap is in and working correctly. When the coolant warms up and expands, the hose to the reservoir is warming up and venting.

The depth dimension from the face of the neck to the inner shoulder was .810/.818. The corresponding dimension on the new cap measured .836/.842 showing that the spring would be preloaded upon assembly.

For me, this problem is solved and I think the older cap, although used for only 1500 miles & 8 months, had taken a set and would no longer seal correctly. The lesson learned on this and supported by a telcon with Champion is that off the shelf caps like the one from Murray, and presumably others, may not necessarily seal. The reason is that they are too short.

Not everyone has the measuring tool to check this out but if you have an aluminum radiator from Champion, buy the cap from them. Otherwise, measure to the inner shoulder and bring a Vernier to the parts store. I'm going to buy a spare from Champion.

------------------
88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

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cebix
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Report this Post11-13-2021 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cebixSend a Private Message to cebixEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think you've encountered the problem with today's aftermarket parts manufacturing. They just aren't to spec. I've had a similar issue with my radiator - the cap would leak because it wouldn't seal properly, had to get an extra gasket. So my solution is to hack it so it's fixed. It's just not plug and play, gotta dig deeper into it.

Check out this video, this guy hits the spot:

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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-14-2021 06:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The video above is excellent and worth watching.

------------------
88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

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87_special
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Report this Post11-15-2021 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_specialClick Here to Email 87_specialSend a Private Message to 87_specialEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8Steve:

Here are pictures of the new one. Note it's self venting where the retention button on the inner end has some float to allow any system vacuum to draw coolant back from the overflow tank.

My added seal above negated the venting capability. In the next few days, I plan to measure the dimension from the face of the neck to the inner shoulder and then compare to the same dimension on this replacement cap. If the dimensions are correct there will be compression on the inner seal and it will work as it should.

EDIT: I noticed on my photo of the home made double seal there might still be space under that venting button, so maybe it still has venting capability. I'll know more when I take it out.




Did Champion give you a part number or application spec for that cap? I have the same problem.
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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-15-2021 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Champion told me just buy it from their website. So that's what I did.

Champion Radiator Cap

It's $5.00


------------------
88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

[This message has been edited by V8Steve (edited 11-15-2021).]

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Report this Post11-16-2021 02:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 87_specialClick Here to Email 87_specialSend a Private Message to 87_specialEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8Steve:

Champion told me just buy it from their website. So that's what I did.

Champion Radiator Cap

It's $5.00



Thank you for the link!
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Report this Post11-16-2021 11:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The Entire metal valve/seal part can be carefully pried off the spring/cap parts.

Can likely put a shim between them to tighten the seal.

Stant likely makes a cap to work Champion rads w/ deeper necks.
Likely a Trunk cap not standard xx230.
If you have PN can likely just cross ref that to Stant or Motorad part.
(Motorad makes most "Store brand" caps.)

Why said?
Stant rad testers covered here uses a "washer" to use the tester w/ some vehicles.
Is not same rubber part in 12450 adapter.

I'll dig thru notes etc. later for more info.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
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[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-16-2021).]

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theogre
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Report this Post11-16-2021 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8Steve:
Champion told me just buy it from their website. So that's what I did.

Champion Radiator Cap

It's $5.00
The $5 13# cap is wrong and you can "boil over" very easy.
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V8Steve
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Report this Post11-17-2021 10:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for V8SteveClick Here to visit V8Steve's HomePageClick Here to Email V8SteveSend a Private Message to V8SteveEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good input.

It's the standard cap that comes with the radiator.

I drove my V8 all summer with no issues. Coolant temperature with Autometer gage never exceeds 200/210F.



------------------
88GT 355 CI, AED HO 750 Double Pumper, AFR milled 180, Dyno'd at 427 HP, 360 WHP, F40 6-Spd
anderson@gdsconsulting.com

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Report this Post11-18-2021 04:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by V8Steve:
It's the standard cap that comes with the radiator.
Is no help to most buyers.
Besides Low pressure cap can boil over at lower temps...
Also allows more Cavitation in the Water Pump making that to "wear out" faster.
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