I'm too lazy to search but has anyone ever left the sender in the tank but installed an external fuel pump in the rear of the car for easier access?
Perhaps someone has done the above mentioned but if the problem is with a rotted hose connection in the tank you'll never know and you'll still have to lower the tank to fix it. Might as well drop it. Remove several hoses, a few clamps and 2 straps. If tank is empty of fuel even better. I've found that it's easier to handle a full tank than one that is half full due to the sloshing around of the fuel.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Sure... just cut open a large well-placed hole in the floor.
I know you are just joking but it bugs me because the hole would be in the center hump not really the floor... and you cant do just a hole because the rigid lines will get in the way you would have to cut a rectangular section big enough to clear the lines and the top of the sender. and you will still have to disconnect the rubber hoses and the sending unit cables... i suppose you could just cut it all out while you are hacking away at the car.
...and you cant do just a hole because the rigid lines will get in the way you would have to cut a rectangular section big enough to clear the lines and the top of the sender.
Well, I did say "a large well-placed hole".
I installed a performance fuel pump in my '98 JDM Subaru Impreza STi wagon, and it was so easy. There's small panel in the floor behind the back seat. Four screws to remove and voilà ... complete access to the top of the fuel tank and the fuel pump!
1 big problem adding new pump and leave old one in the tank... The old pump will restrict flow. Worse if "rust" etc builds up in the pump itself. Iffy Fuel Flow for any reason not only F the engine but pump itself because fuel is lube and coolant for it. Is why you have a regulator w/ return line for 99% E-pumps. (Newer cars w/ one line to engine just move the fuel regulator to the tank and dump extra flow in it. This is reduce Fuel heating and EVAP issues.)
That's if the hose etc doesn't fail as said above and new pump can't suck near bottom. If the hose fails I think you get ¼ to ⅓ of Full Tank to use by new pump.
New hose must be SAE 30R10 for in tank use. Don't trust hose that may come w/ new pumps. Wrong hose there has been a problem for decades and worse w/ "E10." (May say 10% ethanol on the station pump but maybe less to a lot less depend on location and winter/summer formulas.)
Moving a pump is possible but you have to make a tube w/ a end to fit the pick up "Sock." The sock the first filter to protect the pump. Pumps can take small crap and let filter/screens upstream to block that, but big crap will plug the input or destroy the "impeller."
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I know you are just joking but it bugs me because the hole would be in the center hump not really the floor... and you cant do just a hole because the rigid lines will get in the way you would have to cut a rectangular section big enough to clear the lines and the top of the sender. and you will still have to disconnect the rubber hoses and the sending unit cables... i suppose you could just cut it all out while you are hacking away at the car.
If you're going yo cut a hole somewhere, why not go in through the bottom of the tank? The hole could be fairly small (3inch diameter vs 8 inch at the top?). You'd have to figure out a way to seal the hole but seems a lot easier that way. I know ome of the aftermarket pumps require one to cut a hole int he tank and then seal it with the install so there's a way to seal it effectively. A small hole in the plastic baffle shouldn't matter much.
If you get a quality GM pump, it should last 100K so I just drop the tank, but some people like to make things "easier".
[This message has been edited by reinhart (edited 08-07-2021).]
Perhaps someone has done the above mentioned but if the problem is with a rotted hose connection in the tank you'll never know and you'll still have to lower the tank to fix it. Might as well drop it. Remove several hoses, a few clamps and 2 straps. If tank is empty of fuel even better. I've found that it's easier to handle a full tank than one that is half full due to the sloshing around of the fuel.
Spoon
Let's see, fuel weighs 8 pounds per gallon so a full tank is 100 pounds including the metal. That's easier for you to handle then say 3 gallons or 25 pounds sloshing or even 50 pounds sloshing?
You really NEED to drop the tank. I did this job about a week ago and the fuel sock was completely disintegrating. Little bits were falling off everywhere (and my car is an 88) I'm sure everyone needs to look at dropping their tank very soon if it was never done. If it doesn't just clog the fuel filter, the pump will probably burn out soon from the extra crap getting jammed in the veins.
It took me about 5-6 hours from complete start to having the tank out. My pump did still push fuel, so I used it to empty out the tank (disconnected lines, routed them into a fuel can, jumped the fuel relay) At first I tried saving the hoses, but some were so stubborn I cut them. And also realized they all needed to be replaced anyway.
Not the cheapest job in the world, but if you get all the stuff for it you should have it done in a weekend.
Also found out Rodney Dickman is starting a production run of new OEM reproduction tanks (think it said March time frame next year) He said the tanks will be galvanized stamped steel with steel baffling (the plastic baffling in mine is cracked and also found big plastic chunks in the tank near the pump pickup; steel baffling would be awesome)
FYI as to why I dropped the tank in the first place: after about an hour of driving, the car would start choking under moderate throttle input. After some scanning with a wideband and then an extra pressure sensor to confirm: it was leaning out quite badly and losing fuel pressure, but the injector time was trying to add fuel. (I do have a 3800, maybe a 2.8 wouldn't draw enough fuel for it to cause noticeable issues)
If you're going yo cut a hole somewhere, why not go in through the bottom of the tank? The hole could be fairly small (3inch diameter vs 8 inch at the top?). You'd have to figure out a way to seal the hole but seems a lot easier that way. I know ome of the aftermarket pumps require one to cut a hole int he tank and then seal it with the install so there's a way to seal it effectively. A small hole in the plastic baffle shouldn't matter much.
If you get a quality GM pump, it should last 100K so I just drop the tank, but some people like to make things "easier".
Well... Im going with fumes in the tank and sparks are not something i want to do. Then you have to butcher the baffle. Then you have to figure out out to braze the tank back together to seal the hole (more fumes more fire) without melting the rest of the plastic baffle.
Well, my frustration is that everybody makes it out as if the hoses are no big deal, but the weight of the tank is the difficulty. Not! The larger hoses are the hardest job i have ever done on a Fiero: all the regular hose problems plus a super small tight space to work them, and those were new FS hoses. In a weekend? Hah! i just put in a fuel pump and it took a lot longer than a weekend. The problem (hear pump run, nothing coming out) can only be the hose in the tank - new hose, came with fuel pump. Please stop acting like this job is a piece of cake. It is the biggest most difficult job on a Fiero. i would much rather rebuild the steering column or drop the cradle and reassemble than put in a new fuel pump. jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Well, my frustration is that everybody makes it out as if the hoses are no big deal, but the weight of the tank is the difficulty. Not! The larger hoses are the hardest job i have ever done on a Fiero: all the regular hose problems plus a super small tight space to work them, and those were new FS hoses. In a weekend? Hah! i just put in a fuel pump and it took a lot longer than a weekend. The problem (hear pump run, nothing coming out) can only be the hose in the tank - new hose, came with fuel pump. Please stop acting like this job is a piece of cake. It is the biggest most difficult job on a Fiero. i would much rather rebuild the steering column or drop the cradle and reassemble than put in a new fuel pump. jon
I started lubing hoses awhile back before installation and omg what a night and day difference for install uninstall.
Let's see, fuel weighs 8 pounds per gallon so a full tank is 100 pounds including the metal. That's easier for you to handle then say 3 gallons or 25 pounds sloshing or even 50 pounds sloshing?
I've been in the water business for over 50 years and I've seen other contractors move cylinder shaped water vessels full & partially full of water or other hazardous liquids using proper equipment for the application. Most accidents occur with vessels partially full due to the unpredictability of the motion of the liquid. Fiero fuel tank is much smaller scale and the moving equipment is a human and most likely they're lying on their back with no escape route if something goes sideways. Same principle with 18 wheeler tankers partially full. Much more dangerous to stop due to the motion of the liquid sloshing around. Add a layer of snow and now you have reduced friction along with the above mentioned. So yes it's easier for me to handle a full tank however the last time I pulled my Fiero tank I used my car lift and a wheeled utility cart and the tank was always supported. I took a pic of the process but can't find it at the moment.
Spoon
------------------ "Kilgore Trout once wrote a short story which was a dialogue between two pieces of yeast. They were discussing the possible purposes of life as they ate sugar and suffocated in their own excrement. Because of their limited intelligence, they never came close to guessing that they were making champagne." - Kurt Vonnegut
Well, my frustration is that everybody makes it out as if the hoses are no big deal...
"everybody"? I don't recall an endless number of PFF members posting about how easy it was to remove the hoses.
I hope you at least removed that large heat shield by the end of the tank (held on with four screws) while you were wrestling with the hoses. Makes for a whole lot of extra room to gain access.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 08-07-2021).]
The gasoline tank is only held in place by three brackets and 8 total nuts/bolts. You must first disconnect the battery, then the electrical connector, next drain the tank, (opening and dropping the fuel and return lines down will siphon most of the gas out) With those hoses disconnected, next do the filler hose and vent line. Its not a hard job but you must work under a car held up securely on a level concrete surface with a lift or adequate support like pinned jack stands. In other words be careful. Before we had the lift I jacked up the car and put HD ramp platforms under the wheels then blocked the fronts from moving.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
First time I did a fuel pump was just using the spare tire scissor jack and no stands. I was able to replace the pump in a single afternoon. I don't recommend that one but it can be done. Older and wiser, my second time I put jack stands at the corners. Both times the tank was probably about a third full.
It is a fairly easy job other than the hoses. I do not believe I removed the metal heat shield but if I remember correctly I did lower the front of the tank while the hoses were attached which allowed the tank to move frontward and made the hose removal easier. I believe the total time of the repair the first time was probably 6 hours and 4 hours the second time,
The Fiero fuel tank is much easier to remove than those in some other cars. We don't have to disconnect any exhaust or suspension parts, for example, or drop the rear axle.
I recently watched a video where a guy dropped the fuel tank in a Camaro. It was a lot of work! Glad we don't have to do all that much. The hoses really are frustrating and I typically get my hands horribly full of cuts and scrapes because there are some sharp edges in the tunnel there where the hoses go.
BTW I have one of those Motive pressure bleeders.... I used it to pressurize the tank and it allowed me to siphon more than eight gallons out of the tank the last time I had to drop a tank. It worked like a charm.
The Fiero fuel tank is much easier to remove than those in some other cars. We don't have to disconnect any exhaust or suspension parts, for example, or drop the rear axle.
I recently watched a video where a guy dropped the fuel tank in a Camaro. It was a lot of work! Glad we don't have to do all that much. The hoses really are frustrating and I typically get my hands horribly full of cuts and scrapes because there are some sharp edges in the tunnel there where the hoses go.
BTW I have one of those Motive pressure bleeders.... I used it to pressurize the tank and it allowed me to siphon more than eight gallons out of the tank the last time I had to drop a tank. It worked like a charm.
Yes it's not that hard. A few months ago, I put together a list of 10 worst Fiero repairs and the fuel pump isn't anywhere near making the list. In fact if you're going to replace the hoses, I'd argue it's rather simple. You could just cut the hoses and remove the pieces later. The only thing that makes it even moderately difficult is removing the hoses and possibly siphoning the fuel out). I wonder if people that are saying it's super hard just haven't done any Fiero (or any car) repairs that really are hard?
I don't recall an endless number of PFF members posting about how easy it was to remove the hoses.
