You have or are thinking about getting a Fiero. But you know the stock 2.5 is underpowered and even the 2.8 V6's 135HP is not very motivated. I am here to give you a little nudge to take the plunge and start the project.
Here's why!
------------------ 84/87 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 2.8 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -11.85 at 114mph
Lots of good points being made. The power is great, the engine fits perfectly, gets good mileage and I will add that the torque comes on very quickly with the 3800SC . On the other side of the coin the engine is not particularly light ,and getting quite old having last been manufactured in 2007. Finding a low mileage example of an engine this old is getting harder to find. If I would pick a new swap to do today, I would go with the LFX engine; super light, flex fuel, 11.5:1 compression ratio, high redline and with the premier version 318 hp@ 6800 rpm & 275 lbâ‹…ft @ 4900 rpm (stock). Offers more power (all versions are over 300HP) far lighter weight and more modern technology but a rather difficult swap where few swap parts are available. I believe that this engine was last offered in 2020 so it can still be found.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Lots of good points being made. The power is great, the engine fits perfectly, gets good mileage and I will add that the torque comes on very quickly with the 3800SC . On the other side of the coin the engine is not particularly light ,and getting quite old having last been manufactured in 2007. Finding a low mileage example of an engine this old is getting harder to find. If I would pick a new swap to do today, I would go with the LFX engine; super light, flex fuel, 11.5:1 compression ratio, high redline and with the premier version 318 hp@ 6800 rpm & 275 lbâ‹…ft @ 4900 rpm (stock). Offers more power (all versions are over 300HP) far lighter weight and more modern technology but a rather difficult swap where few swap parts are available. I believe that this engine was last offered in 2020 so it can still be found.
Hey Dennis - appreciate you thoughts and comments always - thank you!!
I am thinking about another serious Fiero project down the road and an LFX or similar engine is an absolute possibility! Agreed that 3800's are getting a little harder to come by as the years go by - but I have to think since they are 20 years newer than the stock fiero 2.5 & 2.8 engines AND there had to be several times more of them made (Grand prix, Bonnevilles, Regals, Ultras, Rivs etc), they should be around for a while. One might have to settle for a 3800 NA and put a small turbo on it perhaps? Wish the 4t65e -hd could handle 500 HP though!!!!
Anyhow - thanks for taking the time to comment and your participation in this forum!
You have or are thinking about getting a Fiero. But you know the stock 2.5 is underpowered and even the 2.8 V6's 135HP is not very motivated. I am here to give you a little nudge to take the plunge and start the project ...
This might be the first video posted to the Forum containing a Trigger Warning.
But seriously, that is The Swap that I want to do but regrettably the all-knowing, all-wise State of California won't let us do it because (wait for it ...) the 3800SC engine was never offered with a Manual Transmission. (If you have an automatic you can do the swap and get better gas mileage, produce friendlier emissions, and apparently blow doors off many modern cars.) Yes, I am bitter. BTW, your swap looks really nice and clean. Well done!
[This message has been edited by Notorio (edited 06-20-2021).]
This might be the first video posted to the Forum containing a Trigger Warning.
But seriously, that is The Swap that I want to do but regrettably the all-knowing, all-wise State of California won't let us do it because (wait for it ...) the 3800SC engine was never offered with a Manual Transmission. (If you have an automatic you can do the swap and get better gas mileage, produce friendlier emissions, and apparently blow doors off many modern cars.) Yes, I am bitter. BTW, your swap looks really nice and clean. Well done!
Regarding a 3800sc and a manual transmission: You can't do a 3800sc, but you can do a 3800NA because it was offered with a manual on Camaros, right? If that's true do you then have to find a 3800NA from a Camaro with a manual? That would be challenging.
This might be the first video posted to the Forum containing a Trigger Warning.
But seriously, that is The Swap that I want to do but regrettably the all-knowing, all-wise State of California won't let us do it because (wait for it ...) the 3800SC engine was never offered with a Manual Transmission. (If you have an automatic you can do the swap and get better gas mileage, produce friendlier emissions, and apparently blow doors off many modern cars.) Yes, I am bitter. BTW, your swap looks really nice and clean. Well done!
Ha, so far no one had gotten too upset. Thanks for the positive feedback! Sorry about CA being "anti-creative" when it comes to car crafting.
Originally posted by gjgpff: Regarding a 3800sc and a manual transmission: You can't do a 3800sc, but you can do a 3800NA because it was offered with a manual on Camaros, right? If that's true do you then have to find a 3800NA from a Camaro with a manual? That would be challenging.
That's a good point about the NA being an option. No, your source motor wouldn't have to be from a manual per se BUT you'd still have to reconstruct the emission control system that a 3800NA/Manual would have come with, I think. If the Camaro didn't come with a specific transmission control module then you could use any manual trans you wanted, I think, because the engine control module wouldn't be talking to the transmission. Confusing ...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and information. I am at the start of a 3800 SC build as we speak. It will be a manual F23 My 3800 is completely machined and built with some of the best parts available. Just waiting to get a price on custom length pushrods. Ounce I have them I can start sealing up the engine. it will a long project. I'm in no rush.
Originally posted by DimeMachine: Hey Dennis - appreciate you thoughts and comments always - thank you!!
I am thinking about another serious Fiero project down the road and an LFX or similar engine is an absolute possibility! Agreed that 3800's are getting a little harder to come by as the years go by - but I have to think since they are 20 years newer than the stock fiero 2.5 & 2.8 engines AND there had to be several times more of them made (Grand prix, Bonnevilles, Regals, Ultras, Rivs etc), they should be around for a while. One might have to settle for a 3800 NA and put a small turbo on it perhaps? Wish the 4t65e -hd could handle 500 HP though!!!!
Anyhow - thanks for taking the time to comment and your participation in this forum!
Ken
Your thoughtful courteous and helpful posts speak for themselves. I strive for that as well. As for the 3800 engines, I believe that GM made something like 1 million of them during their life span. Making the assumption that they will be around for a while is a sound one but as they age, rebuilds start becoming more of an option let alone a necessity. IMO, the close bearing tolerances that these engines need to keep from having a spun bearing may be key. While I have rebuilt engines in the past, my thinking today is towards the LFX swap. The engine is much lighter, provides 300 HP stock ( about equal power to the LS4) but it is a difficult swap. This is not to say that the 3800 isn't a great engine (I have that swap) but its a matter of old vs new technology. According to what I have seen at the shows the 2.5L's and 2.8L's still seem to be what most Fiero owners have. As these engines age to the 40 year point; it is possible that more engine swaps will need to be done.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and information. I am at the start of a 3800 SC build as we speak. It will be a manual F23 My 3800 is completely machined and built with some of the best parts available. Just waiting to get a price on custom length pushrods. Ounce I have them I can start sealing up the engine. it will a long project. I'm in no rush.
Sounds like a fun project! As you probably already know, this forum is a treasure of current and past posts to help you through any of the different parts of the installation!
Your thoughtful courteous and helpful posts speak for themselves. I strive for that as well. As for the 3800 engines, I believe that GM made something like 1 million of them during their life span. Making the assumption that they will be around for a while is a sound one but as they age, rebuilds start becoming more of an option let alone a necessity. IMO, the close bearing tolerances that these engines need to keep from having a spun bearing may be key. While I have rebuilt engines in the past, my thinking today is towards the LFX swap. The engine is much lighter, provides 300 HP stock ( about equal power to the LS4) but it is a difficult swap. This is not to say that the 3800 isn't a great engine (I have that swap) but its a matter of old vs new technology. According to what I have seen at the shows the 2.5L's and 2.8L's still seem to be what most Fiero owners have. As these engines age to the 40 year point; it is possible that more engine swaps will need to be done.
Thanks Dennis!
To be honest, I am not up to date on the newer V6 GM engines. For the LFX, is there a stronger transmission option than the old 4t65e-HD? Or a manual version that is capable of a decent amount of Torque?
For the LFX, is there a stronger transmission option than the old 4t65e-HD? Or a manual version that is capable of a decent amount of Torque?
I don't know about "stronger", but there is a six speed auto (6T70? 6T75?) that comes stock in the FWD configuration, in the Impala and a couple of others. The only manual that will bolt straight to the block is the F40 that came in the Saab 9-3, bolted to the V6 2.8 Turbo. (Same block.)
Mender (on this forum) is doing an LFX with an F23(?) bolted to it, but he's had to come up with a series of clamps and such, to adapt it. (Pretty slick, actually.) Darryl M is also doing an LFX / manual swap. Think his is an F40.
i've been out driving my car for a cuppla weeks now since i finished the swap, and am finally seeing the results of months of work. i was sick of working on my car, i did everything twice, (one thing 10 times) but now i know that i can turn the key and feel the power. Different car with a 3800SC. i went bone stock engine, MY8 tranny, spintech stage 3+ clutch, made all my own brackets and did my own wiring (with help from Jelly 2M8) She runs so good i feel i could go anywhere. The tall gears allow me to drive on the freeway in 3rd gear. Fourth becomes like an overdrive, so i bet she gets good milage on the freeway. i drive around town in first and second. A few more runs in the area and then she will be ready for a cruise with the NS Fiero guys. Still some bugs to work out, but she throws no codes. Not real loud, but a deep throaty rumble. jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
Not sure when it'll happen but almost all the parts are collected for a swap. Just too much house related stuff ahead of it.
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Your thoughtful courteous and helpful posts speak for themselves. I strive for that as well.
Oh, really? His posts, yes. I agree. He's a very positive contributor. The 2nd part, no. If you wouldn't post on The Mall ads or interject opinion where it hasn't been expressly asked for, you would be correct about yourself. I'm sure it's why I don't have a wide body setup in my possession.
That's a good point about the NA being an option. No, your source motor wouldn't have to be from a manual per se BUT you'd still have to reconstruct the emission control system that a 3800NA/Manual would have come with, I think. If the Camaro didn't come with a specific transmission control module then you could use any manual trans you wanted, I think, because the engine control module wouldn't be talking to the transmission. Confusing ...
It might not matter what engine you used, as long as you have a Camaro VIN in the computer. You could swap the SC engine in, then swap an NA intake on every two years for emissions, keeping it supercharged in between.
When you're well set-up, performing a cradle drop on a Fiero isn't too hard.
Probably the best is to swap cradles+powertrains, and do the swap in a way that it doesn't integrate tightly with the body, channeling everything through the C203 and C500 interfaces, etc.
i've been out driving my car for a cuppla weeks now since i finished the swap, and am finally seeing the results of months of work. i was sick of working on my car, i did everything twice, (one thing 10 times) but now i know that i can turn the key and feel the power. Different car with a 3800SC. i went bone stock engine, MY8 tranny, spintech stage 3+ clutch, made all my own brackets and did my own wiring (with help from Jelly 2M8) She runs so good i feel i could go anywhere. The tall gears allow me to drive on the freeway in 3rd gear. Fourth becomes like an overdrive, so i bet she gets good milage on the freeway. i drive around town in first and second. A few more runs in the area and then she will be ready for a cruise with the NS Fiero guys. Still some bugs to work out, but she throws no codes. Not real loud, but a deep throaty rumble. jon
Walking into a dealership and buying a Lambo = FUN (I would imagine anyway). Swapping a SC 3800 into your Fiero and doing most (if not all) the work yourself = Priceless!
Walking into a dealership and buying a Lambo = FUN (I would imagine anyway). Swapping a SC 3800 into your Fiero and doing most (if not all) the work yourself = Priceless!
ENJOY!
Dime
A lambo would be fun to drive, but horrible in many other ways. Anybody with th bucks can have one. Your own swap is highly satisfying when she runs well like today. i went for a drive just for fun..... jon
------------------ Astronomy says we will find a coded signal from outer space. Then we'll KNOW that life exists there, for coded signals aren't by chance.
Biology says there are coded genetic signals in every cell, but we KNOW that no intelligence created life.
I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 3800SC, 4-wheel drifts are fun!
When you're well set-up, performing a cradle drop on a Fiero isn't too hard.
Probably the best is to swap cradles+powertrains, and do the swap in a way that it doesn't integrate tightly with the body, channeling everything through the C203 and C500 interfaces, etc.
Keep the interfaces stock so it's as much Plug+Play as possible makes swaps not so difficult.
Keep the interfaces stock so it's as much Plug+Play as possible makes swaps not so difficult.
That makes a lot of sense, and it begs another question that may reveal a lot of ignorance on my part:
What are the considerations associated with getting the Fiero's instrument cluster to play well with a new engine?
I can imagine that it's different for every donor engine and probably newer engines require more effort to integrate with the stock Fiero dash.
I'm considering an LE5/F23 swap, which is probably legal in California if you can do it right, but I'm not sure how difficult or easy it will be to get the instrument cluster to behave. I'd like to avoid swapping the dash, if I can, but I'm not sure if that's realistic. I haven't been able to find a threat that deals with instrument cluster issues for various choices of donor engine.
[This message has been edited by gjgpff (edited 06-29-2021).]
I remember back about 15 years, a local guy was trying to sell his, I saw it when it was reduced to $100, then $50, then for free.
I was wondering if I should scarf it up, but looking back it would still be sitting in my garage taking up space, mine is still bone stock with all the original parts.
I have often thought of the swap, but considering nearly every car on the road manufactured in the past 20 years is higher performing, in 2007 I did indeed take the plunge for more horsepower, better brakes, better handling, better gas mileage, better everything really ... I bought a C6 Corvette, LOL
I encourage more people to do an engine swap, but why stop there? make it look like a Ferrari or Lambo, put on gull wing doors ... pimp it out!!! the more people that do, some day my bone stock Fiero might actually be worth some money like those car rag experts said it would
Oh, really? His posts, yes. I agree. He's a very positive contributor. The 2nd part, no. If you wouldn't post on The Mall ads or interject opinion where it hasn't been expressly asked for, you would be correct about yourself. I'm sure it's why I don't have a wide body setup in my possession.
A forum is there for the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions. There is no rule that requires permission to post. If you don't like or disagree with an opinion just don't read it. I never speak negatively or take pot shots at any forum member so I will continue expressing my opinions whether you like it or not.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Why do people rag on the reliability of the 2.8? I've never had a major mechanical issue with the V6 in 25+ years and hundreds of thousands of miles of owning them and it has always been super reliable as daily drivers. I did sell one when it was at about 166Kmi and the oil pressure started dropping at idle. Looking back now, I could have probably fixed that issue with new engine bearings if I had it to do over.
I encourage more people to do an engine swap, but why stop there? make it look like a Ferrari or Lambo, put on gull wing doors ... pimp it out!!! the more people that do, some day my bone stock Fiero might actually be worth some money like those car rag experts said it would
