This may be a long read...So I apologize ahead of time, but I need some help with details and deciding which route to take....
So I will be picking up an 87 GT in the next couple weeks. This is going to be a COMPLETE overall restoration of the car....as in everything will be replaced, if it cant be replaced it will be fixed. I also plan to do an engine and trans swap to something better, more powerful, more reliable, and something that will last a good long while.
So....for the meat and potatoes, I am attempting to decide between 3 swaps. Honda K24, 3800SC, and LS3. If I do go with the LS3 or 3800SC I am then trying to decided if I should go with the F40 swap.
So.... pros and cons
K24 with K-series Honda trans: Pros: All engine/trans parts are Honda. So VERY easy to find replacement parts and aftermarket is insane. So no worries on mods to get more HP from it. Super Duper reliable great gas mileage cuz Honda super easy to work on inside the engine bay Honda parts are like Legos
Cons: not a common swap so swap parts need to be custom made
3800SC: Pros: well known and documented swap possible swap parts being sold? (I'm having issues finding someone who still makes and sells parts for the swap. can anyone help with that?) can be VERY reliable can make decent power with mods fits well in the engine bay fairly simple to work on after swap
Cons: slowly losing aftermarket support over time. Which may make replacement parts hard to find eventually.
LS3: Pros: MORE POWAH BABY! (stock power is plenty enough) cool factor
Cons: swap parts????? (same as 3800SC still trying to see if someone makes and sells swap parts?) cramped engine bay for working on it heavier modifications to get working.
Then there is the F40 Trans swap: Pros: 6 gears for good cruising when i take a road trip with the car more modern trans Mates directly to 3800SC?
Cons: Swap parts???? (who even does mounts and brackets? and what clutch/flywheel combo needs to be used for either 3800SC or LS3)
These are the major point I'm trying to figure out....that way i can set a good plan in motion. I would GREATLY appreciate the help tracking down who may be making any of the mount, brackets, adaptors, kits, whatever for any of these swaps! That alone may help me narrow the choice down so i can finally get rolling on this thing lol
Not sure if its your cup of tea but don't forget the LQ1
The engine I'm getting with the car is actually an LQ1 and it currently out of the car and a bit torn apart. I thought about it but really wanting to go with something i can get more power out of and a bit more modern tech.
LS3: Pros: MORE POWAH BABY! (stock power is plenty enough) cool factor
Cons: swap parts????? (same as 3800SC still trying to see if someone makes and sells swap parts?) cramped engine bay for working on it heavier modifications to get working.
If I was going to start from the beginning again this is the direction I would go.
These is a swap kit available but it's $$$. If you're good with fab you can probably make most things yourself.
LS3s are also available in 6.2L trucks as the L92 and L9H with VVT, and probably for less money. Same aluminum block and rec port heads.
The LS4 is also all aluminum and set up for FWD applications already. But loses about a liter of displacement.
[This message has been edited by fishsticks (edited 06-17-2021).]
My understanding is he is still selling kits, but no longer doing the full conversions.
Neat! Well I’ll reach out to him through his site and see what the cost would be! Other issue would be tracking down the LS3 and f40 in the current market…
Neat! Well I’ll reach out to him through his site and see what the cost would be! Other issue would be tracking down the LS3 and f40 in the current market…
Anything is going to be tough right now. LS3's are extra tough (ask me how I know). IMO the truck 6.2 is the way to go for availability. Put a cam and springs in it, reprogram the ECU and have 500hp on tap. I have a 330K 6.2L truck sitting here with a bad 6L80 and was >this< close to pulling the motor out of it for Fiero shenanigans.
Power is so easy to make these days, especially with turbos.
Admittedly, I'd love to see what a K24 setup would do in a Fiero as well.
Anything is going to be tough right now. LS3's are extra tough (ask me how I know). IMO the truck 6.2 is the way to go for availability. Put a cam and springs in it, reprogram the ECU and have 500hp on tap. I have a 330K 6.2L truck sitting here with a bad 6L80 and was >this< close to pulling the motor out of it for Fiero shenanigans.
Power is so easy to make these days, especially with turbos.
Admittedly, I'd love to see what a K24 setup would do in a Fiero as well.
Yeah, i have been heavily considering the K24 swap. With how many Honda guys swap it into other cars, harnesses that are universal are readily available, tuning for them has gotten to child like ease. All of this so much so that all i would really need to do is get someone to fab up mounts and axels and the rest is actually rather simple to finish up. Especially if you go with a matched Honda trans. Nothing crazy about mounting the engine and trans together lol
Yeah, i have been heavily considering the K24 swap. With how many Honda guys swap it into other cars, harnesses that are universal are readily available, tuning for them has gotten to child like ease. All of this so much so that all i would really need to do is get someone to fab up mounts and axels and the rest is actually rather simple to finish up. Especially if you go with a matched Honda trans. Nothing crazy about mounting the engine and trans together lol
What you're talking about there is the big draw for me nowadays - availability.
A lot of guys like doing these one-off motor swaps or try to wring power from X or Y motor that's only available in these 2 models for these 3 years or whatever. I've done a few myself.
Nowadays I just want to go fast, not spend a fortune doing it, and not have a 5 year project sitting in my garage.
LS stuff, Honda stuff - All that is going to be en vogue for a long time and there are literally millions of cars available for parts. That and there are a lot of minds pooled together on the R&D and fabrication end of things. Might as well benefit.
What you're talking about there is the big draw for me nowadays - availability.
A lot of guys like doing these one-off motor swaps or try to wring power from X or Y motor that's only available in these 2 models for these 3 years or whatever. I've done a few myself.
Nowadays I just want to go fast, not spend a fortune doing it, and not have a 5 year project sitting in my garage.
LS stuff, Honda stuff - All that is going to be en vogue for a long time and there are literally millions of cars available for parts. That and there are a lot of minds pooled together on the R&D and fabrication end of things. Might as well benefit.
Oh for sure. And thats what really draw me toward the K24. Clutch goes bad? its not try and track down the very specific part or buy a part then get a place to machine it to a specific spec.....You just go buy a clutch and flywheel for a k series and put it in. Done.
Iv been really considering it just for future maintenance alone. With the Major headache being i would have to have someone fab up mounts, axels, and exhaust. The rest im comfortable with doing on my own.
Oh for sure. And thats what really draw me toward the K24. Clutch goes bad? its not try and track down the very specific part or buy a part then get a place to machine it to a specific spec.....You just go buy a clutch and flywheel for a k series and put it in. Done.
Iv been really considering it just for future maintenance alone. With the Major headache being i would have to have someone fab up mounts, axels, and exhaust. The rest im comfortable with doing on my own.
As a guy who JUST picked up his new cut down flywheel from the machinist's today.... maybe I should do a K24. Lol.
As a guy who JUST picked up his new cut down flywheel from the machinist's today.... maybe I should do a K24. Lol.
Yeah Archie just got back to me. Faster than I expected lol
But for a "full" kit its just shy of $10k. Kit doesn't include engine, trans, wiring or ECM. And looks like you still need to make the modifications to your subframe and build your own exhaust with the parts he sends.
I think this may have ruled out that swap for me.....
Have you considered the GM High Feature V6? The LFX, LF3, or LF4 all bolt up to a SAAB F40 transmission. HP starts at 300 and goes up from there. There is no "kit" , but if you can do relatively easy fab work, you could end up with a modern swap with good power and economy with about the same weight as the stock 2.8 engine.
Have you considered the GM High Feature V6? The LFX, LF3, or LF4 all bolt up to a SAAB F40 transmission. HP starts at 300 and goes up from there. There is no "kit" , but if you can do relatively easy fab work, you could end up with a modern swap with good power and economy with about the same weight as the stock 2.8 engine.
I have looked into a couple of those. But, I lack the tools and skills in order to do much fab work at all. But the real question is those will still require some “custom” clutch ideas wouldn’t they? This is what makes the Honda engine so appealing. Plus I know a number of place I can take the car to for some minor fab work.
I have looked into a couple of those. But, I lack the tools and skills in order to do much fab work at all. But the real question is those will still require some “custom” clutch ideas wouldn’t they? This is what makes the Honda engine so appealing. Plus I know a number of place I can take the car to for some minor fab work.
For my LFX project, I used a spec billet flywheel and clutch from the SAAB that the transmission came from. Bolts right up.
Yeah Archie just got back to me. Faster than I expected lol
But for a "full" kit its just shy of $10k. Kit doesn't include engine, trans, wiring or ECM. And looks like you still need to make the modifications to your subframe and build your own exhaust with the parts he sends.
I think this may have ruled out that swap for me.....
Yeah Archie gets a premium for his stuff, but removes a lot of the part searching you might otherwise have to do.
If not an LS my vote goes to the K24. I'm not a Honda guy, but I've seen some fast K-swap cars up close and YT is full of 11sec passes from NA K24s.
Yeah Archie gets a premium for his stuff, but removes a lot of the part searching you might otherwise have to do.
If not an LS my vote goes to the K24. I'm not a Honda guy, but I've seen some fast K-swap cars up close and YT is full of 11sec passes from NA K24s.
Do it and hurt everyone's feelings.
I will say....im honestly thinking about just diving full in and start to learn to fab stuff up myself with this project.....
maybe pick myself up a good angle grinder and welder and just go to town on it all. Cuz even with the 3800SC swap, there aren't many ppl who make a full mount set for the engine/trans combo im looking for AND even then, most of the mounts won't accommodate the ZZP intercooler setup.
So if im gunna dive hard core in, ill probably just do the Honda K24 with Honda 6 speed swap and then turbo the crap out of it down the road lol
Originally posted by spartan_chaz: I did consider the LS4. Do you make and sell a fill mount kit?
And how is it with an AC setup? Cuz I’ll give up a lot to make sure I have AC lol
No kit yet, just several key parts (and lots of tech support to my customers). My build thread documents in great detail how I completed one of the very first LS4/F40 swaps. No need to delete AC. The car above has working AC and cruise.
The LS4 alternator must move for a Fiero swap. Some choose to put it where the AC is and delete AC. Some notch the frame to mount the alternator above the passenger axle (stock 2.8 alternator location) Some flip the alternator and cantilever it in the battery location Some mount it down low in front right by the AC (my swap above - super tight fit) Some eliminate the mechanical water pump, run electric, which frees up more room for the alternator down by the AC compressors
I will say....im honestly thinking about just diving full in and start to learn to fab stuff up myself with this project.....
maybe pick myself up a good angle grinder and welder and just go to town on it all. Cuz even with the 3800SC swap, there aren't many ppl who make a full mount set for the engine/trans combo im looking for AND even then, most of the mounts won't accommodate the ZZP intercooler setup.
So if im gunna dive hard core in, ill probably just do the Honda K24 with Honda 6 speed swap and then turbo the crap out of it down the road lol
Spending a couple Gs on a nice welder and other metalworking stuff will pay big dividends if you're willing to put the time in to learn.
Also nice when stuff breaks and you're like "Oh, I can fix that."
I have an LQ1 swap in my replica build and it is a crate so as good as you can get. Not a lot of aftermarket to do anything with it. Pretty wide so I have had to adjust the oil dip stick a bit and putting oil in is a bit of an adventure with a funnel. Sound is great and mates to Fiero trans setup. A lot of finessing with several aspects of the install including cooling but all worked out in the end.
A friend has an automatic 3800 swap and loves it. I drove his old 3800 manual and it was fast... I find the 3800 sounds more like a V8 than the LQ1.
I suggest putting a different engine combo into a Fiero is always an adventure so if you are not well into swaps and mechanics, go with the more common swaps as even those are some work.
At the end though, your decision and go with what you want to hear when driving and how much mechanical fortitude you have.....
As of right now, i am still going back and fourth by day between the 3800SC and K24.
If i go 3800SC, i am going to attempt to find a stripped block and build it up hard core to handle any amount of power, with a rough goal of 350-400.
I have sourced where i can buy made mounts for it with only one cast....i dont wanna go Auto. So its still between F23 or F40 for this swap which finding mounts for im still unsure of where to find them :/
I like the F23 option cuz i can use stock fiero axels or can just take my stock one to an axel shop and tell them to make these but make them to handle a ton of torque.
If i can find F23 mounts made for me, ill probably save money overall since i wont have to go and buy a list of tools to make my own stuff....which would make my wife SUPER happy LOL
