I'm getting an intermittent O2 sensor fault in my '86 GT (stock 2.8L, 104,000 miles). The Service Engine Soon (SES) light will come on and after the car has been driven for 10 miles or so. Sometime it will go off wile driving; sometimes it stays on. Checking the codes, I get a Code 13.
Since the sensor has never been replaced from new, I'm going to replace it with one of the new spares that I have. However, I came across this O2 sensor eliminator some time ago (https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/ez-cel-fix-oxygen-sensor-simulator/pontiac/fiero). Just wondering, has anyone ever used on of these or does it fall in the same category of the magic pellets that you add to your gas tank to improve fuel economy?
I'll just say that if this does some weird crap, you'll probably dump a ton of fuel into the motor or not enough causing a lean condition. I'd stick with the stock sensor.
These devices have been around for a while. They are NOT for OBD1 cars... they go in place of the second (cat monitoring) O2 sensor and provide a mostly steady .5v back to the ECM so it thinks the cat is doing its job. Definitely not appropriate for the first O2 sensor.
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney: I'm getting an intermittent O2 sensor fault in my '86 GT (stock 2.8L, 104,000 miles). The Service Engine Soon (SES) light will come on and after the car has been driven for 10 miles or so. Sometime it will go off wile driving; sometimes it stays on. Checking the codes, I get a Code 13.
Since the sensor has never been replaced from new, I'm going to replace it with one of the new spares that I have. However, I came across this O2 sensor eliminator some time ago (https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/ez-cel-fix-oxygen-sensor-simulator/pontiac/fiero). Just wondering, has anyone ever used on of these or does it fall in the same category of the magic pellets that you add to your gas tank to improve fuel economy?
Back First... If they work at all, very doubtful... Page sells a protect that is Illegal in US and others as "Emission Defeat" item. US EPA have gone after MagnaFlow and others for selling exhaust to eliminate the Cat for same issue.
Yes, Most O2 can read wrong way before it dies. Not just old "narrow band" ones. Note: "Old school" often 02 sensors have lifetime to ~ 30,000 to 40,000 to get good readings and after gets slow to read and engine starts to have problems. But other things can cause Same Problems... ● "One Wire" O2 sensors are fakes. They Have a 2nd wire, for GM usually Tan, attach to engine as Return Path. Clean/Fix All "Ground" in the engine and coat ends w/ silicone or brake grease. ● Any Exhaust leaks upstream of O2 sensor (Any leak between head and sensor) often leak Air into the pipe making sensor read Dilute Exhaust Gas. ● Any small Vacuum leaks can make 1 to All cylinder to run Lean. Intake Vac Port can effect 1 to All but can be intake gasket problems too. ● Many engine have Coolant flowing thru Intake Manifolds. Even a small coolant leak so engine "burn", or people using wrong sealers, it can Poison the O2 and Cat. If this happens, will Poison the new sensor too. Poison often a Sick Part, "Not Dead Yet."
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
The only O2 sensor that has ever worked for me and has lasted is Denso. Most all of the Cheap Chinese made junk sold online either won't work or won't last. A friend went to save money and used one of these sensors , (TOMCO brand ) he bought off Amazon and it lasted less than a year. There's a lot of junk out there.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
The only O2 sensor that has ever worked for me and has lasted is Denso. Most all of the Cheap Chinese made junk sold online either won't work or won't last. A friend went to save money and used one of these sensors , (TOMCO brand ) he bought off Amazon and it lasted less than a year. There's a lot of junk out there.
Yup, bought a Bosch O2 and it was garbage. Ended up using an NOS Delco O2 from Ebay, no issues.
That has to be a GM thing. Every other car I own - BMW, Merkur, Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, Jaguar even my Jeep - all use Bosch O2 sensors without issue. 100,000 mile life virtually guaranteed on all types - 1/3/4-wire, thimble, planar, O2, AFR ... all of them. Bosch literally invented the O2 sensor... one would think they know how to make them.
That has to be a GM thing. Every other car I own - BMW, Merkur, Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, Jaguar even my Jeep - all use Bosch O2 sensors without issue. 100,000 mile life virtually guaranteed on all types - 1/3/4-wire, thimble, planar, O2, AFR ... all of them. Bosch literally invented the O2 sensor... one would think they know how to make them.
It was intermittent, no joke. Must have been the single wire connection internally within the sensor.
Many but not all newer Bosch parts are made in Communist China. Gone are the days when they made quality parts in Germany
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Replaced the o2 sensor yesterday. Put the car on the lift to get to the sensor. Was amazed to find that the old sensor had "broke" in half. Half was hanging by the plug and the rest was still in the exhaust. Guess that answers the questions about poor fuel mileage and performance. I put in the new Denso o2 sensor and the performance improvement was noticeable.
I'm getting an intermittent O2 sensor fault...The Service Engine Soon (SES) light will come on and after the car has been driven for 10 miles or so. Sometime it will go off wile driving; sometimes it stays on.
quote
Originally posted by Mike in Sydney:
Was amazed to find that the old sensor had "broke" in half. Half was hanging by the plug and the rest was still in the exhaust.
Geez, what condition does the O2 sensor need to be in to keep the SES light on?
I'm getting an intermittent O2 sensor fault in my '86 GT (stock 2.8L, 104,000 miles). The Service Engine Soon (SES) light will come on and after the car has been driven for 10 miles or so. Sometime it will go off wile driving; sometimes it stays on. Checking the codes, I get a Code 13.
Replaced the o2 sensor yesterday. Put the car on the lift to get to the sensor. Was amazed to find that the old sensor had "broke" in half. Half was hanging by the plug and the rest was still in the exhaust. Guess that answers the questions about poor fuel mileage and performance. I put in the new Denso o2 sensor and the performance improvement was noticeable.
Exactly what my experience was, half way to our lake house, about a 100 mile trip , intermittent SES light. Got to the lake house finally and after reading the codes and poking around with the senor, it literally just fell apart like that. Went to the auto parts store and got me a new Bosch sensor, looked well made. Installed it and half way home, same intermittent SES light, oh crap. Got home, same code. Replaced the Bosch with a old sensor I had from an 85 Buick 3.8 (same GM #) and no more issues. Eventually, scored an NOS Delco sensor to replace the old Buick sensor.
Even when you have a dead O2 sensor for any reason and replace it... You still need to check/clean all "grounds" in engine bay. O2 circuit uses ~ 1v max and iffy "grounds" especial the Tan one will cause crap MPH and more.
Is Part of why many claim get bad/cheap sensors cause problems but still doesn't check the "grounds" etc.
Note: O2 sensors w/o large external metal case like Bosh and some others can break easy when hit by water when hot etc. The ceramic is close to spark plugs type but can't handle crash cooling and break apart sooner or later. Big Metal shells help this a lot better but still avoid opening the trunk and dump water on them. Fiero w/ L4 gets more that because where O2 is.
That explanation makes sense to me... it must be that or something similar. In literally a hundred cars with Bosch O2 sensors across probably a million miles the number of them that have broken is zero. I've never even heard of it happening until PFF.
Electrical problems above happens to all vehicles using "One wire" O2 sensor. Again, Tan wire isn't a ground no matter what a FSM or other Doc's says and same Tan wire on many GM OBD1 vehicles w/ this setup. You have to Read and Understand the schematics for ECM to see how/why but in basic terms is same as my Cave, Ground "Myth" notes for HEI and DIS.
Most ECM/PCM sensors run at 5V and crap wiring causes major problems. Any crap wiring for O2 is way worse...
Many have 2 or 4 wire O2... 4 have heaters and often reach op temps in seconds no matter of location. (When dealing w/ OBD2... some O2 Sensors have even more then 4 wires, have multiple sensors and before and after the cat(s) and can cost Hundreds of $ each.) When you have Heated O2... you have 2 problems when have crap wiring. 1. Same as above. 2. is Heater draws Several Amps at "12V" and crap wiring can literally burn up.
The Fiero L4 O2 sensor and exhaust man often gets water dumped on them when you open the lid in bad weather. Maybe V6 isn't as bad for O2 but front E-man can break for same thing.
Water can cling to lid edge and if there the rubber part (the part GM recall removal for V6) and flow weird so water doesn't drop strait down or move forward.
Avoid Amazon and Ebay. Many parts are counterfeit or worse. AZ, Advance Auto, and others are online and often cheaper and free shipping maybe depending on some rules. IE spend $X get free shipping. Watch "coupon codes" at the sites too.
Avoid Amazon and Ebay. Many parts are counterfeit or worse. AZ, Advance Auto, and others are online and often cheaper and free shipping maybe depending on some rules. IE spend $X get free shipping. Watch "coupon codes" at the sites too.
Yes... I can tell you first hand I've experienced this a handful of times, and for years now I try to buy from local parts stores using discount codes and rewards, the price difference is minuscule and sometimes cheaper locally, with the satisfaction of holding/seeing the part before you pay and walk out the door. You really have to be careful nowadays buying parts online.
Two quick stories... Wanted to buy a new Made in Japan water pump for the 1977 SR5 that I was restoring because I didn't want the junk aftermarket water pumps being sold by auto parts chains stores. So I ordered a Toyota pump from reputable seller on Amazon. When it arrives and took out of the box I was immediately suspicious. It had tiny cracks, logos ground off, and the casting/mold looked like somebody made it in grade school art class. This was an obvious knock-off, but what amazed me was that somebody in a 3rd world country found it profitable to make knock-off 70's Toyota water pumps and create Toyota boxes for them, unbelievable! So I contacted Advance and only one warehouse had one water pump for my engine, so I rolled the dice and ordered it. When it came in I was shocked how nice it was, turns out it was a quality Made in Japan aftermarket pump, go figure. (photos below)
Another incident was buying two new Galaxy S9 phones from reputable seller on eBay at Christmas time. This seller has lots of good feedback and had a cell phone store in Detroit or Chicago. When the phones arrived everything looks good on the surface, but when I started looking closer there was no Samsung logos on the box or the mini paper manual, which looks cheaply printed. Just think of how many people fell for it (Scam #1). I video recorded everything in their cases and packing them up for shipment for return. When the seller received the phones he claimed they were damaged and issued only 50% refund (Scam #2). I had to file claim and eBay ruled in my favor due to the video and my 20 year history. After that experience I don't buy any expensive electronics online any longer.
YIKES! NICE!
[This message has been edited by Skybax (edited 06-15-2021).]
Sigh. After not receiving an answer for a few hours (yes, I know, people have lives) I did buy that part on Amazon.
Counterfeit pats never even entered into my head, just the possibility of it being the WRONG part.
I was going to buy on Rock Auto, but they didn't have Denso and there were a lot of posts about avoiding Dephi and Bosch (but, nothing about Walker, interestingly, neither good nor bad)
I guess we'll find out on Friday, when it's delivered.
It was supposed to show Monday; I was pleasantly surprised when it showed today. If it's counterfeit it's very convincing.
First thing I did after removing the old one was take a wire brush to the bung and clean the heck out of it; my understanding is that the sensor completes the circuit through the body, and I wanted to make absolutely sure that there were as few impediments between the sensor and the exhaust.
I verified continuity with a multimeter - one lead on the bung, the other lead I scratched through the rust to note continuity on the pipe itself.
Then, I attempted to verify continuity from the bung, to one of the grounds on the car - nothing. I'm assuming there's supposed to be some?
