OK, so i have used the search and found some data that is close to what I'm looking to do but here is the issue. The other day my headlight motors stopped working. I checked the motors using a 12V source and they go up and down just fine, nothing interfering with their movement. I have checked the switch and its also good. I have 12V at the switch, and the lights work just fine. I'm 100% sure its the control module. I realize they are easy to swap out but hard to find, even if you find one used, it may be bad. So looking at the wiring diagram in the 88 manual it seems that I could just run a set of 5 wire relays up, power to both sides w/ a switch that stays in a neutral position so no power will be lost.
In my thinking it would work just like power windows, you push the button "up" for the motors to have power and go "up". when they are up you let go of the button. Same thing for going down. Again, its just like power windows. Button in the neutral posit would not do anything and there would not be a power drain.
I know it would require another switch, but I have a blank spot under the power trunk lock switch, so putting a button on the dash is no issue. The old light switch will just be used for turning on the lights.
This is the diagram I came up with (with help from the internet)
Thanks in advance.
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 02-05-2020).]
Any Manual method to "replace" the module is a bad idea. Motors have "Shear pins" to break for overloaded for jams, End of Travel, etc. and more so if module has problems covered in cave etc. This pins die for that and old age. If you or anyone put aftermarket Delrin pins in them then often just a matter of time the gears etc break because they are the weak part now. That before adding switches relays or whatever. see https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/128600.html
Module sees jam/EoT loads and kill power to the motors in microseconds. You only turn off in 1-2 seconds and "beats up" the motors and rest of HL lifts electrically and mechanically every time you do. Motors running only uses 3 to 4 amps max. Unmanaged stall can draw 3x to 5x that and burns out the motor.
"Bad" module can be a lot of issues. Iffy wiring to it is a big one. Crack solder at big pins on the board that wire plugs into is another. Reflowing solder there needs 25w at bare minimum, high gun/iron is better to heat fast w/o damage the board. Rest of board needs 25w iron or less because most joists are very small.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
I have an 88 also and so far my headlight module works. If it fails my plan is to buy one of the new repro modules for 88 to 96 Corvettes. They are part # 16523917 which is the superseded part # of the original Fiero part. They are available from several sources for around $160.00.
I have an 88 also and so far my headlight module works. If it fails my plan is to buy one of the new repro modules for 88 to 96 Corvettes. They are part # 16523917 which is the superseded part # of the original Fiero part. They are available from several sources for around $160.00.
yea, thats the point, they are $160 bucks. I have the relays, the wiring, the switch and I'd like to drive the car w/ out having the lights up all the time. If I can just wire up some relays and add a switch to the dash ... done. Plus if the damn things goes south again, i'm out another $160 bucks.
So i guess no input on the wiring part. I'll just wire it up and give it a try.
Originally posted by Larryinkc: I have an 88 also and so far my headlight module works. If it fails my plan is to buy one of the new repro modules for 88 to 96 Corvettes. They are part # 16523917 which is the superseded part # of the original Fiero part. They are available from several sources for around $160.00.
For all who find this post, use the diagram above if you want to do this, i've added the second motor and updated the diagram. Green/Green together, and Gray/Gray together. I used a 5 pin power window switch from a Saturn (I liked the look over stock Fiero/Firebird style). The important part of the diagram is ground at 87A. I tried wiring it up a different way, and it would not work. The motors have to have one wire hot, the other ground to work. Wired up this way, 87A will remain grounded until the relay is energized which will allow power to travel from 87 to 30. Other side stay grounded.
On the dash, I removed the dimmer wheel, and pushed into the dash (i don't use it anyway) and cut a hole to fit the power window switch into it.
One switch opens/closes the headlights and the stock light switch turns them on/off.
Cost: $0 I had the two relay's, the wiring and the power window switch. Save: $160 -$300 cost of a replacement module.
Cheers
Rob
[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 02-08-2020).]
I believe that the OEM headlight motor module has a safety feature that either reverses or kills the circuit if it is overloaded by a motor jam. The electro-mechanical method with the relays does not offer any such thing.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
OK, so what. I mean i'm sitting right there in the drivers seat. I need lights so I open the doors. They open. Then I put on the lights. If I was using the stock module and I went to open them and there was a "Jam", they would not open. If I hit the button and they don't open, they don't open and I stop pressing the button. I don't get why everyone is so negative to saving $300 bucks. I get that if your stock module works you don't need to do this, but if your module goes out, this is something you can do. Thats all. I get that its not the way PONTIAC designed it. The stock module is just a super smart relay. Look at the wire diagram, its just a relay with some smart stuff built in. This is just another way to do it, thats all.
...of course you can do whatever you like, but, generally people with the 1st gen motors hate the relay system and wish they had the 2nd gen system. lol
[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 02-06-2020).]
Let us know if there's any problems down the road. You're the guinea pig and Beta Tester.
Not. It will work but Is only a matter of time the motors break hitting EoT or jamming doing his way. Might take days to years depending on motors condition, how often used, and a lot more. Worse other will try too claiming that they work often to sell the car later to nubes think is normal .
Plus Manually control Gen2 motors w/ or w/o relay(s) can burn the contact close w/o warning then burn front wiring to the whole car because Doesn't even have limit switches and breaker built into Gen1 motors. Yes, they are Very crude but work well enough GM used that for 1 or 2 Decades before cost to make custom chips drop made Gen2 cheaper. (Likely same reason Lectron made GM "gen2" chime units w/ 1 custom chip about same time.) Relays in Gen1 setup mostly isolates power surges and amp draw to protect rest of car wiring.
Motors draw ~ 4a running... when stalled or switch(s) fried close will draw a lot more. The Fusible Links, B C & D, very likely Will Not blow before the motors and rest is melting or on fire. Cliff P burn out the "repaired" module and both motors and those links just laugh at the damage. He got lucky didn't burn the car and more. If you install fuses then blows often or worse never causing same damage. How to you know? The module has 2 fuses marked F1 and F2 on the board and rarely blows when module fries like in same thread. Unlike a module given to me w/ a blown fuse after a front end wreck likely short out the wires to one motor. Wrong circuit breaker can to same thing and is only in Gen1 motors as backup for failed limit switch(es). (Failed limits are why Gen1 motor can kill the battery in hours. Breaker is auto reset w/ very short cycle timing.)
Motor die then what? If does have a fire when the motor die, He's likely to use Delrin pins etc. or replace w/ Cardone et al new ones that break again control by hand. Having Delrin pins only guaranties you break the nylon gear or output shaft next time motor breaks. Finding a way to prop up a HL at night or bad weather is much worse then hand turning a motor to the up position. Far worse if you have health problems or on the highway.
Many can make "Arduino" MCU and some glue parts to do same job and w/ same features but not at ~ $150 for a complete unit sold at many "stores" like above. Not even using china PC board makers to make enough money to have headache from fools think cost too much and other bs.
You are really over thinking this. I push the up button and the headlights come up. I release the button when they are up. I turn on the light switch and lights come on. When I stop the car, I turn off the lights and then I push the down button and the headlights go down, I release the button when they are down.
Its not rocket science and your comments assume I am some kind of ****ing retard.
If the motors stop b/c something has gotten in the way, I would release the button, I would not keep it pressed down. Again, using common sense, you stop if something is wrong. I have to physically hold the button in either the up/down position for this to work, I can see the doors and hear the motors as they run.
Thank you for your input, and I believe you have made your point. We get it, you don't like to deviate from GM design, you never, ever have. Point made.
I am glad you came up with an alternate solution for the headlight problem. I too suffered tracking down the problem . After rebuilding both headlight assemblies, replacing the switch, replaced the fusible links, I too even tested the headlights with a 12 volt battery and they worked fine. In my case only one headlight wouldn’t work. So I read through all the threads here and got some good ideas, I read the service manual test procedure for one headlight not functioning. Sooo., it appeared obvious by now that the problem was the infamous “control module”. I bit the bullet and bought one for $150. Now I was prepared to see the light (LOL) I removedf the inner wheel well and there she was it would only be a few minute now and I will see these lights work. Well as I removed the module and unplugged the connectssr there it was a “broken” gray wire on the connector. I repaired the wire and decided to try using the original old control module. Bang! they worked perfectly. After a few expletives and a hard glare at my newly acquired control module I started to wonderHow could that wire break in half like that. I mean where this module resides on the inner fender nothing could get to it to cut the wire. Well, low and behold if one looks at the outside trim on the fender which as we all know is fastened with two sheet metal screws. One of those screws is in a position not far from the control module connector. My signal light trim was broken when I got the car and I replaced it. So what happed I believe is that the left fender was hit or push inwards to where the sharp screw tip cut through the wire. I really didn’t have far to move to contact the wire and the fender being fiber glass bounced back with no damage. Incredible !! So I have an extra control module with the correct part number called for in the Service manual. I guess the moral to the story is “ sometimes the simple obvious is to hard to see or believe”. Had I removed the old module before I bought the new one I would have seen the wire and fixed it and not had to resort to the foul abusive vocabulary needed to regain my patience.
Personally, I like the relay solution - it gives back control and makes us less dependent on hard-to-find expensive GM parts. Also, an over-current protection circuit & FET (ACS712 for example) would only add $2 or so. When mine fails - this is where I am going!
Let's encourage folks who come up with alternatives! (if they are relatively harmless)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larryinkc: I have an 88 also and so far my headlight module works. If it fails my plan is to buy one of the new repro modules for 88 to 96 Corvettes. They are part # 16523917 which is the superseded part # of the original Fiero part. They are available from several sources for around $160.00.
Sometimes one or both of my headlamps wouldn't raise or lower. Open the module and float the solder on all the connections. Then check the relay contacts and clean if necessary. Doing so fixed mine. You have nothing to lose.
What if one headlight pops up, but one does not? Could you not just splice the "dead" wires into the wires for the side that works and then both motors would activate?
Originally posted by beaumontracer: What if one headlight pops up, but one does not? Could you not just splice the "dead" wires into the wires for the side that works and then both motors would activate?
1st is often iffy motor doing this. 2nd = No.
Module would "trip" for overload w/ 2 motors on same side. if your lucky that all would do... Even if seems to work... Relay and other parts in the module won't last long trying to run 2 motor on 1 side.
When motor don't open... Turn motor's knob ~ 1 turn loose then try again. Works now then the motor, lift or both are your problem.
Congrats! You have basically recreated the system used on C-2 Corvettes! When I first lived in ABQ I discovered they had a tendency to ice shut in the winters there. I had no motor or wiring burn out issues at all!
I remember buying one of the Corvette headlight actuators off eBay for about 40 bucks. But that was a few years ago. Looks like they go for $70-80 now.
While the OP used the relay method to open and close the headlight motors, that method leaves out any form of motor protection. Very easy to strip a motor gear with your method. It may work for a while but doing it the right way with a new module is the far better solution. I'd be very surprised if your headlight motors last more than a year but time will tell.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If theogres comments were true then all of our power window motors would surely be burned up by now!! This is basically just a power window circuit.
Oh and the 3 pucks inside the gears ARE NOT sheer pins!! Stop saying it. When new those OEM gel plugs will not sheer no matter how many times you run those motors up against the stops.
[This message has been edited by carguy8t8 (edited 07-03-2021).]
Glad to hear that this episode had a happy ending for Rob. Looking back it should have been said that the gen 2 headlight motor modules can be rebuilt. The module contains a multi-pole relay that is often the main cause of failure. Those relays can still be found and can be replaced. Many times the fine wires to it break and can just be re-soldered. There was an article written on how to fix these modules but I'll need to locate it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Glad to hear that this episode had a happy ending for Rob. Looking back it should have been said that the gen 2 headlight motor modules can be rebuilt. The module contains a multi-pole relay that is often the main cause of failure. Those relays can still be found and can be replaced. Many times the fine wires to it break and can just be re-soldered. There was an article written on how to fix these modules but I'll need to locate it.
Still working fine. Only one issue a few months back. Up worked, Down didn't. Checked the relays and some water got inside and rusted it a little. Put in a new relay, put them into a water tight box and they work fine. And as stated above they do act like a power window circuit. Hold the button for up, push the opposite side to go down.
And I did try to "rebuild" mine before I went with the relays, I'm not that good with a solder iron b/c I kept getting the solder across more than one pin/wire at a time and in the end it did not work. But yes the parts were easy to find on the interweb.
Thought I'd revisit this topic as it appears that I'm going to need a module and my source (GM restoration parts) sold to Classic Industries and now the $100.00 modules are $500.00 just like everyone else. I have found remanufactured modules for about $150.00 however.....While opening my garage door I came to the realization that it's function was controlled by limit switches simply mounted to the tracks and of course a switching module to reverse the motor direction. Looking at the headlight bucket / motor mounted to my bench it appears that limit switches could be installed that would not interfere with the lifting motion. Has anyone attempted this? If yes, did you make a bracket for the switches (3D) print. I do not have a printer (or the skills to use one).
Two limit switches per light (maybe only need one set on one light to control both lights) a controller some wire and a switch module can be had on Amazon for less then $50.00
So as a the only current designer of a replacment for the GM gen 2 module, as well as a easy conversion kit for Gen 1 Cars.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, PLEASE DO NOT USE RELAYS AND TIMERS TO RUN HEADLIGHTS.
That is of course if you like fires or burnt out motors. It is absolutely critical that your headlights are able to detect blockages and stop points like my module.
Also Relays etc Specs printed on them & in data sheets are Resistive Loads mainly for AC Volts or if includes DC will have much lower volts. Read the sheets more then 1 paragraph & real sheet cover Inductive Loads like Motors & most are now rated for 1/4 to 1/3. Other Sheets don't say anything because of other issues like copy part made in China & other 3rd world countries. So most "users" don't bother w/ that including some self claim experts & wonder why keeps frying Relays, Switches etc.
Example: Many here have Songle Relays from "Arduino" projects w/ 10a printed on them but never read the data sheet from Elegoo etc saying same thing that motor can only draw ~ 1/3 of amps printed on them. That ignoring back EMF that often burns the contacts shutting Off power to the motor.
Leviton, Omron & others old brands nearly always have same "issue" to derate the contacts for all Inductive loads. Like the "wall switch" the runs most garbage disposers in home that often needs replacing every few years.
The relay for top post, if made to OE car makers spec, is made to handle ~ 10a max Inductive to run F-pump, heater blower, etc that pulls typically 5-8a. Big problem is many new parts are cheaply made to total counterfeit and won't last long or weld the contacts causing big problems. And Fuses etc may not Blow/Trip before starting a fire because other parts have enough resistance they "see" no problem.
Yes is a Relay in Gen2 Modules but does Not switch power, only set direction. The MOSFET are the switches rated 10a or more. Even then the 5a relay contacts still wear or burn. While that relay looks standard Omron part it isn't. Is a "custom" part for GM w/ high contact rating. IOW you can't buy exact same relay @ mouser etc.
While that relay looks standard Omron part it isn't. Is a "custom" part for GM w/ high contact rating. IOW you can't buy exact same relay @ mouser etc.
^^^ this ^^^
The actual part number for the relay in the module is: OMRON MY4-02-GM
Note the final 2 letters, you can buy a OMRON MY4-02 anyplace, however as theogre said it is not the same part unless it includes the -GM at the end. I am not going to assume that the GM is for General Motors, but it could very well be and it was designed for GM specs.
Omron & others did & still makes "custom" jobs for any buyer w/ big pockets ordering Thousands of parts minimum. I have little doubt number ends w/ GM is for GM + When you read spec on side of the Omron "GM" say 5a but "02" is only 3a. Is likes the "change" between is so small that near no-one can see a diff just by looking or even measuring. Even just change exact contact metal matters & can't easily tell looking. (Like Stant made OE caps for GM Ford etc. w/ relabel for them. Sometime could still find just S logo on "Ford" etc parts many years ago.)
⚠️ Even w/o switching power itself... motor pulls ~ 4a when everything works right. That alone will "overload" the contact section of 02 before you add other issues.
Worse, "GM" parts designers only use simple resistor as "snubber" to protect the contacts. That helps but not same as better methods to control back EMF etc even at time was made. Likely design choice to fit Been Counters demands... (some page is wiring in the module but no time to link right now.)
Is part of why cave gen2 page say don't a good plan to fix most problems w/ the module.
