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GM High Value LZ9 Swap? by ChuckR
Started on: 07-07-2019 08:26 PM
Replies: 98 (3539 views)
Last post by: ChuckR on 06-12-2021 07:17 AM
RacerX11
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Report this Post02-28-2020 12:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RacerX11Click Here to Email RacerX11Send a Private Message to RacerX11Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Most modern VVT engines will be using a closed-loop system. It will not be an open-loop, X% duty cycle = some fixed cam phasing. The PWM controlled valve meters oil to the mechanical actuators and things like oil temp, oil pressure, oil viscosity, engine speed etc. all play a role in the final cam phasing. The ECU will have a baseline PWM starting point for a giving operating point and desired cam phasing, but will compare the cam and crank sensor signals to adjust the PWM accordingly. Any aftermarket ECU will need to be able to handle this closed loop operation to properly and accurately control the cam phasing. Just being able to drive a PWM output won't be enough.
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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-22-2020 04:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So I have had to put my plans on hold over the last few months as I was laid off due to economic down turn. In this time I have had to bring my swap plans into scope. I am going to go for a budget swap situation to increase power and reliability. I still want to go with the LZ9, I plan to use stock ECM from donor, I would like to use the donor's instrument cluster, which means possibly needing to bring the BCM from the donor as well. I have been thinking about the transmission. I was originally thinking about doing a swap on the trans to the 4T65E and bringing the TCM from the donor over as well. However to keep the swap simple I was wondering about keeping the TH125C that is in it now. My thoughts are if I keep the original trans it will mount the same and also simplify the axle situation. Saving money and complications.... maybe...

My new questions:

If I keep the old trans, what would need to be done to have it shift correctly? I know doing this will mean issues on using the donor instrument cluster for the Speedo.

Is the 125 all hydraulic or are there electronics to worry about? Vacuum?

Can the 125 handle the aprox 250 hp?

The bolt pattern should be the same GM Metric correct? will the flywheel / flexplate work still? which would I use the Fiero or donor?

Or would it still be easier and more economical to use the donor's 4 speed and deal with mounts and axle issues?

[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 07-22-2020).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post07-22-2020 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
250 hp, not a problem. 250 lb-ft, or close to it and your 2-3 shift will be slipping in no time. That was my experience with it behind a boosted iron head 3.4L and that was after I rebuilt the transmission prior to install. It might help some to have one of the high strung 3 speeds with the 3.33 final drive to shift more of the torque loads to the axles. It's a pretty simple transmission otherwise, you will only need to rig up a torque converter clutch lockup signal for better economy, 12volts. The 4 cyl cars were most likely to have the 3.33 final drive as well as a higher stall torque converter, which I discovered upon swapping a 2.8L into a base 4 cyl car. It made a huge difference in performance. I posted some rebuild manual pages that contained gear ratios and torque converter stall speeds on the forum several years ago, that will be helpful for the 125 and 440 transmissions if you can find them.
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Rickady88GT
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Report this Post07-22-2020 10:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have done a couple of larger displacement V6's. One 3100 GM 60* engine swap and the power was MUCH better than a stock 2.8 Fiero engine. I then swapped out the automatic for a 5 speed manual and it got even better.
I have also helped another PFF member do a 3800 SC 5 speed swap and that thing was a monster.
BUT they did not sound as good as the new GM high feature twin cam v6. Just listen to the sound clips of the new Camaro v6. AMAZING sound and outstanding power.
I would LOVE to do this swap in a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 07-22-2020).]

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60Greyhound
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Report this Post07-23-2020 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 60GreyhoundClick Here to Email 60GreyhoundSend a Private Message to 60GreyhoundEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

I have done a couple of larger displacement V6's. One 3100 GM 60* engine swap and the power was MUCH better than a stock 2.8 Fiero engine. I then swapped out the automatic for a 5 speed manual and it got even better.
I have also helped another PFF member do a 3800 SC 5 speed swap and that thing was a monster.
BUT they did not sound as good as the new GM high feature twin cam v6. Just listen to the sound clips of the new Camaro v6. AMAZING sound and outstanding power.
I would LOVE to do this swap in a Fiero.



I'm just starting an install of the 2.8t 'high feature' twin cam in the UK (88 formula - currently has an archie sbc kit fitted). I know BMWGuru on here has one fitted and I've looked through his thread a few times for inspiration. I've been in touch with Dave though and unfortunately his isn't quite finished yet, mainly electronics problems I believe. I'll be running a hybrid turbo with charge cooling and a stand-alone ECU on the engine with full closed loop mapping capabilities, aiming for around 400hp. mated to a F40 6 speed with quaife LSD fitted. I know people with this motor/trans combo in other cars running 450-500hp without issue (other than torque steer!)
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Will
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Report this Post07-23-2020 08:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
For the record, this is NOT a good idea.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
My new questions:

If I keep the old trans, what would need to be done to have it shift correctly? I know doing this will mean issues on using the donor instrument cluster for the Speedo.


As long as you get the TV cable hooked up correctly, the transmission will shift "correctly", meaning as it's calibrated to do. Whether this matches the engine or not is another matter.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
Is the 125 all hydraulic or are there electronics to worry about? Vacuum?


The shifted gears are hydraulic, but the TCC is electrical. Your expected control system will not be able to operate that correctly.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
Can the 125 handle the aprox 250 hp?


No way. Even the "built" ones are hit/miss and the builds are expensive.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
The bolt pattern should be the same GM Metric correct? will the flywheel / flexplate work still? which would I use the Fiero or donor?


This is the one thing that would be easy... I *think* it would bolt right up to the LZ9.

 
quote
Originally posted by ChuckR:
Or would it still be easier and more economical to use the donor's 4 speed and deal with mounts and axle issues?


I think using a manual transmission would make the most sense, but after that the original 4 speed auto would be best.
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ChuckR
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Report this Post07-23-2020 09:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

For the record, this is NOT a good idea.


I think using a manual transmission would make the most sense, but after that the original 4 speed auto would be best.


Will and Joseph thank you for the input, it was just an idea i was kicking around. Using a manual could be easier, but then I would have to add the costs of locating the transmission, the parts for shift cables, hydraulics for clutch, and other parts to make an Auto into a manual, thus project creep. Working with a trans from a donor or the original trans would limit costs and creep. I think with this information that the best route for me is still the 4T65E. Now all I need to do is get new employment so I can figure my budget again. I have had interviews get cancelled since they are not opening their offices yet. They still want to meet with me but they do not know when their offices will reopen... So until I have a proper income I am on penny pinching mode and this is just research. I did however get my Fiero running again on the stock motor! At least I can enjoy driving her as she is.
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MarkS
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Report this Post07-23-2020 08:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MarkSClick Here to Email MarkSSend a Private Message to MarkSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cvxjet:

<snip> I consider the L44 thru stock exhaust the best sounding V6...My Father, who was into sports cars back in the 50s and 60s said the only sixes he ever heard that sounded better than my Fiero were the Jag straight six in the E-type and the Maserati sixes. <snip>.


Often wondered if the aluminum headed versions of the L44 sound as good through the Fiero exhaust as the L44. Never liked the sound of the earlier versions in GM cars. Or is the sound particular to the iron heads?

[This message has been edited by MarkS (edited 07-23-2020).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post07-23-2020 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MarkS:
Often wondered if the aluminum headed versions of the L44 sound as good through the Fiero exhaust as the L44. Never liked the sound of the earlier versions in GM cars. Or is the sound particular to the iron heads?



Should be the same. Exhaust systems are like musical instruments, change the length, diameter, or baffling and you'll change the sound.
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tb30570
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Report this Post02-16-2021 02:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tb30570Send a Private Message to tb30570Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
cvxjet...is 300lb for the LV3 an estimate or has somebody verified the weight? I would have estimated 340-350lb.

the lightest v6 with at least 3.0L I have heard of is the 60 degree Bowtie at around 270lb. The aluminum block part number is 10051141. I saw one on eBay about a year ago. I've heard that block has larger Gen III 2.25" journals so it could be used with an LW9 80mm forged crank. Together with common 89mm pistons, displacement is 3.0L. Gen III aluminium heads from the L82/LG8/LA1 are supposed to fit.
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Will
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Report this Post02-17-2021 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:

cvxjet...is 300lb for the LV3 an estimate or has somebody verified the weight? I would have estimated 340-350lb.

the lightest v6 with at least 3.0L I have heard of is the 60 degree Bowtie at around 270lb. The aluminum block part number is 10051141. I saw one on eBay about a year ago. I've heard that block has larger Gen III 2.25" journals so it could be used with an LW9 80mm forged crank. Together with common 89mm pistons, displacement is 3.0L. Gen III aluminium heads from the L82/LG8/LA1 are supposed to fit.


You can go bigger on the bore, probably dependent on how much boost you want to run. The heads flow plenty to run the 84mm stroke from an LX9. Some of those crankshafts are forged.
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cvxjet
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Report this Post02-17-2021 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetClick Here to Email cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tb30570:

cvxjet...is 300lb for the LV3 an estimate or has somebody verified the weight? I would have estimated 340-350lb.

the lightest v6 with at least 3.0L I have heard of is the 60 degree Bowtie at around 270lb. The aluminum block part number is 10051141. I saw one on eBay about a year ago. I've heard that block has larger Gen III 2.25" journals so it could be used with an LW9 80mm forged crank. Together with common 89mm pistons, displacement is 3.0L. Gen III aluminium heads from the L82/LG8/LA1 are supposed to fit.



I have read that in a few places on the net...But nothing really official. I just did a calculation......Chevy 5.7 (550 lbs) vs LS V8 (Aluminum)(400) which gives a ratio of 1.375 to 1, so a Iron 4.3 weighs 425 (Approx') and that gives you 309 lbs for the LV3. (Remember, they eliminated the Distributor but they added VVT....Also, they are really trying to make the engine lighter so eliminating extraneous crap)
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Report this Post02-17-2021 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ericjon262Send a Private Message to ericjon262Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm currently looking at LZ9's for my car's next engine. FWIW, the Buick Lucerne LZ9 has the alternator mounted high, and forward, near the hinge box, which may fit in the car better than the other applications, which mount it near the dogbone.

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La fiera
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Report this Post02-17-2021 08:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]:
This reads like my story as well.

Rebuilt my 2.8 into a 3.1 w/ crank and rods, and a .040 overbore. Went with an inexpensive (but recommended) cam and lifter kit. Wiped a lobe almost immediately. I set the valve lash pretty low so it wouldn't be aggressive to the cam during break-in. Babied the car, didn't make a difference.

I'm determined to stick with the 3.1 I've built because it's the original motor, and I'm past the point of making this car something it isn't. I just want to keep it as I remember it since it was my first car.

But, if I had no history with this car, and it was new to me... I would ABSOLUTELY be doing the 3.9 V6/60 w/ 6-Speed manual swap... all... day... long.


Maybe you are using the wrong oil for break-in and change intervals and wrong and lifters. I've never wiped a cam lobe and I'm using WAY more spring pressures than anyone on these motors.
Synthetic oil doesn't mean is good for the flat tappet cam engine if it doesn't have the right additive package.
The lifters I use have a .021 pin hole on the face of the lifters that feeds pressurized oil to the cam lobe and lifter face, better than a roller lifter because it is much lighter.
But even though with that .021 pin hole supplying oil to the lobe, if you don't have an oil with at least 1100-1400ppm of ZDDP and Moly regarless it is synthetic or regular, you'll be missing not one but several lobes from the cam.

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pillagenburn
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Report this Post06-09-2021 10:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pillagenburnSend a Private Message to pillagenburnEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Anyone have any idea of the level of difficulty for this swap with a F40 6-speed and what it might cost? Or any write-ups?
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ChuckR
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Report this Post06-10-2021 06:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I haven't found a write up with costs. If you wanted to do a straight swap it would be one of the cheaper to do. I would check around on FB groups like 60* V6 and the forums there as well. The engines are cheap in the junkyards as they are not popular. the costs will also be different based on your skill level. Fabrication, welding, and engine tuning will all have a cost. There will be custom brackets, half shafts, engine, and trans mounts.
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Will
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Report this Post06-10-2021 02:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pillagenburn:

Anyone have any idea of the level of difficulty for this swap with a F40 6-speed and what it might cost? Or any write-ups?


The F40 required specific brackets, axles and shift linkage, so it adds noticeably to the cost & difficulty.

The upside is that you can get the entire powertrain from a 2006 Pontiac G6 GTP and install the entire package in the Fiero recipient.
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zkhennings
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Report this Post06-10-2021 05:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for zkhenningsSend a Private Message to zkhenningsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am swapping an LZ9 into my Fiero currently, I am building it to make power higher in the RPMs. I have had the rotating assembly blue printed and the crank balanced to within a gram, cleaned up the heads, intake, polished the exhaust, stiffer valve springs and stronger keepers and retainers from an LS motor, cryo treated the biggest timing chain and sprockets I can get for the motor short of a double roller, and beefier custom length pushrods, and just to possibly improve the stock rocker arms (since there is no aftermarket for those) I had the rocker arms cryo treated as well. Oh and it has a cam going in it as well, and cam bearing spacers to accept the cam. The motor is currently going back together, and will soon be mounted on the cradle. I will be making custom headers to mate up to a custom exhaust, and it is being controlled with a Microsquirt ECU which is basically MS2. I have an Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator to deal with the returnless setup, and I will be fabbing custom fuel lines as well as modifying the coolant lines on the Fiero to end up in a more ideal location. I am using the stock Fiero 5 Speed for now with an 88 Fiero flywheel, if that blows up I will swap in an F23. I have been documenting everything and have a big spreadsheet to track all my costs, I am around 6K right now for the swap so far, but I haven't chose to do anything the easy way, and the only items left to procure are exhaust tubing bits. I intend to get this running and driving this summer and I plan to get some dyno numbers for it. The DOHC 60* V6 motors are cool, but I want to be able to work on my motor easily in the engine bay, and have a simpler, cheaper, lighter and more readily available motor. I am still figuring out my alternator mounting, but other than that I have most things sorted mechanically. The wiring and tuning will be new for me but it is pretty straight forwards, and there is a ton of documentation for Megasquirt, so I look forwards to figuring it all out. I don't have all the answers but I have quite a few now.

[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 06-10-2021).]

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ChuckR
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Report this Post06-12-2021 07:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChuckRClick Here to Email ChuckRSend a Private Message to ChuckREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a question going through my head, has anyone looked at works best on this engine to increase compression ratio? By modern standards 9.8:1 that is stock on this engine is pretty low.

Can you deck the heads? if so how much before you need new pistons with reliefs?

Is there a domed piston that would work on this engine?

are there thinner gaskets?

This engine is designed for 87 octane, but running premium 93 pump gas in my area, 91 for some or E85 gives a lot of room for a high CR and avoiding det.
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