This swap will share quite a bit with Daryl M's LFX build, although he is several steps ahead of me as well as having much more free time to work on it than I....
Just getting into this by testing vertical clearances last night into the cradle after removal of the coolant base oil cooler and to see if the stock front mount bracket needs to be 86'd...
Did some initial vertical sizing up of the LF3/F40 combo last night...
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 02-05-2019).]
Does the center axle shaft bearing carrier line up with the F40? What is the carrier from?
The carrier bearing bracket is from the same Saab 9-3 turbo v6 or LP1 which is more or less the same block as ours.. For the LFX it should bolt up perfectly to the block, as was my ASSumption for the LF3, however on the LF3 the leftmost bolt hole in the bracket lands right on the turbo oil drain tube flange. I had to cut off the third mount hole to get it mated for axle alignment etc...
The stock lf3/xts bracket does not work nor does any other carrier bracket from an automatic AFAIK.
Debating on building a lower support bracket for the Saab bracket or cutting up the xts bracket and building a plate steel adapter to the block. Leaning toward the Saab bracket as everything lines up great now just need additional support.
Fyi, I tried a gmc Acadia motor mount carrier combo mount and although it bolts up the alignment once again is for an automatic.
Also, using the beefy cobalt turbo axles to handle the power this should produce....just have to swap out the axle stubs first
when you float the engine for mounts i used 2x4 and then pulled the 2x4's when i built the mounts.
I used the blocks from the giant Jenga game I made for the grandkids out of 2x4s . worked great to block the motor/tranny in place. I also made a custom dolly for the cradle out of scrap steel to role the thing under the car.
Yeah..the pan has a pan...real PITA since I can't set the motor down on concrete to level it with the cradle without crushing it....
I am sure you have some old Fiero sway bar links sitting around somewhere. Cut about 6 or 8 of them flush with the secondary pan and get longer oil pan bolts. Make some stands that protrude slightly below the pan. Weld some 1 x 1/8" bar between them to help stabilize them if needed.
Just to put the bed any hopes of utilizing the Cobalt Turbo axles with an F40 swap of either swapping the fiero cups onto the end or even resplining the axle ends...
1.) The cobalt star/cage/balls will not fit into the fiero outboard axle stub housing... the cobalt cage is slightly larger and the balls are a few millimeters larger in diameter.
2.) Here's the 'real' goocher..... after number one above was fully realized I took some measurements on the cobalt vs fiero axle stub ends to make sure the cobalt axle can be resplined.... The fiero splined end is 26.5mm.. the cobalt splined is several mm thicker but is only half as far down the shaft as the fiero splining... behind the cobalt splining, further down the shaft where the fiero splining would be cut.. the cobalt axle necks down to 25.5mm so the end of the cobal axle cannot be splined to that of the fiero..... what a waste of some seriously stout axles......
The cobalt turbo axles 'can' be obtained to fit the fiero if one were to order the GMPP Cobalt Wheel Hop kit but that's $800... might as well get the LSJ stage 2 axles from the driveshaftshop for that amount of coin...
The cobalt parts are all in the lower part of each image...
Looking into the G6/Saturn Aura axles like joseph upson, saab 9-3/9-5 axles
Saab 9-3 or 9-5 axles and respline the end for the fiero…
Or go with Dutch Axle / drive shaft shop to cut some duplicates of the cobalt turbo axles splined for the fiero outboard cups...
Just to put the bed any hopes of utilizing the Cobalt Turbo axles with an F40 swap of either swapping the fiero cups onto the end or even resplining the axle ends...
1.) The cobalt star/cage/balls will not fit into the fiero outboard axle stub housing... the cobalt cage is slightly larger and the balls are a few millimeters larger in diameter.
2.) Here's the 'real' goocher..... after number one above was fully realized I took some measurements on the cobalt vs fiero axle stub ends to make sure the cobalt axle can be resplined.... The fiero splined end is 26.5mm.. the cobalt splined is several mm thicker but is only half as far down the shaft as the fiero splining... behind the cobalt splining, further down the shaft where the fiero splining would be cut.. the cobalt axle necks down to 25.5mm so the end of the cobal axle cannot be splined to that of the fiero..... what a waste of some seriously stout axles......
The cobalt turbo axles 'can' be obtained to fit the fiero if one were to order the GMPP Cobalt Wheel Hop kit but that's $800... might as well get the LSJ stage 2 axles from the driveshaftshop for that amount of coin...
The cobalt parts are all in the lower part of each image...
Looking into the G6/Saturn Aura axles like joseph upson, saab 9-3/9-5 axles
Saab 9-3 or 9-5 axles and respline the end for the fiero…
Or go with Dutch Axle / drive shaft shop to cut some duplicates of the cobalt turbo axles splined for the fiero outboard cups...
Part number GM8217 from rockauto was a bolt in on my project. Have you checked it?
Part number GM8217 from rockauto was a bolt in on my project. Have you checked it?
Yes... however, I'm looking for something a bit more stout to handle the LF3 output.... and the GM8217's used by the supercharged cobalt was known to snap at stock tq levels....
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 02-23-2019).]
Axle update... It looks like I'll be able to use the Cobalt SS Turbo axles after all... The Cobalt axles should be able to be resplined to fit the manual G6 outboard inner race as the G6 circlip is on the end of the axle like the Cobalt axles. OD and ID of the Cobal axle outboard end vs the G6 inner race work out with 1 mm to spare. Cobalt axles sent off to Hudlow Axle in North Georgia for resplining.
Ok... Vendor woes...
First, I know several PFF members have utilized California Clutch / Clutchnet over the years, including myself for a stage 1 clutch on a Mazda 6 restore I completed last year. However for my LF3/F40 build I ordered a saab 9-3 2.8T V6 billet solid flywheel, pressure plate, and 6 puck sprung clutch back at the beginning of January. I was initially told 10 business days for delivery and after 3 conversations where each time I was told 'next friday' or 'just waiting on the flywheel' during February, Oleg at Clutchnet has gone radio silent on me. Will not return calls/messages.. no status updates... nothing... I know he's there as one Friday after I left a message around mid afternoon I had a friend immediately call him up and leave a message about how he was interested in a new clutch/pp/fw and he immediately returned his call.
I noticed on the web that a few others have had similar experiences online recently and a few similar posts at the BBB.
Anyone else had this type of experience with ClutchNet recently?
On another Vendor issue.. I had been dealing with AlphaFabIndustries/Motorsports out of MI as they advertised a complete stand alone harness for the LF3 retuned E92 ECU, including all sensors for 1.5K$, spendy but that's a ton of time I could save on this build. Last fall I looked up their reviews, contacted them, asked them as many questions as I could about their business, turnaround time, etc.. and paid them in full last October for the harness and DBW throttle pedal. Then located and shipped them an XTS LF3 ECU to speed up their process. They do answer their phone, "IF" you know the extension and I called them every Friday to every other Friday since the end of January inquiring as to the status of the Harness.. Every time I got answer of, We'll get right back to you and call you back today, it'll be ready next Wednesday for shipment, etc..etc...
I contacted them to see if they'd be will to just back out of the deal, refund me my payment, and return my ECU. They jumped at the opportunity, apologized, took my card # for the refund and stated that the ECU would be shipped by that Friday. That was 10 business days ago......aaannnnnddddd you guessed it.......nothing... Called yesterday, asked to send in an email to get a response by the end of the day by the owner....nothing... emailed this morning... nothing.... They are alive and well as per their facebook page, doing quite well from what it seems...even moved to a larger shop.
I've got every email correspondence between us that backs up the story with AlphaFab.
Has anyone ever gone through the credit card charge back scenario with a vendor? Advice, pointers, etc?
[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 03-26-2019).]
How does resplining work? Do they anneal, cut whatever they have to cut, and then re-harden? Or do they just cut the axle as-is?
I would avoid vendor #1, as if you're having communications problems with them before sending them a penny, after payment it could quickly degenerate into the situation you are presently experiencing with vendor #2.
Just about two weeks ago, my dad bought a brand-new car, and paid an extra fee to get the plus-sized mag wheels. When he got home with the new car, he noticed that the car had the standard-sized wheels. He kept calling the car dealer and getting the runaround, or being ignored.
After a week of this, he sent a letter (addressed to the salesman at the car dealer) threatening legal action if the problem could not be resolved... lo and behold the director of the dealer got back in touch with my dad right away, so we'll see how that goes...
Roll up the sleeves, get a Cadillac ATS-V manual ECU and harness with Fuel Pump Control Module and get the whole thing running outside the car then customize the harness for the fiero bay...
Roll up the sleeves, get a Cadillac ATS-V manual ECU and harness with Fuel Pump Control Module and get the whole thing running outside the car then customize the harness for the fiero bay...
You may want to contact Ryan at Sinister performance/GMTuners. He was great to work with and the price was fair, especially considering the good customer service I received. He reprogrammed my OEM ECU and sent a detailed set of wiring instructions.
Axle update... It looks like I'll be able to use the Cobalt SS Turbo axles after all... The Cobalt axles should be able to be resplined to fit the manual G6 outboard inner race as the G6 circlip is on the end of the axle like the Cobalt axles. OD and ID of the Cobal axle outboard end vs the G6 inner race work out with 1 mm to spare. Cobalt axles sent off to Hudlow Axle in North Georgia for resplining.
Ok... Vendor woes...
First, I know several PFF members have utilized California Clutch / Clutchnet over the years, including myself for a stage 1 clutch on a Mazda 6 restore I completed last year. However for my LF3/F40 build I ordered a saab 9-3 2.8T V6 billet solid flywheel, pressure plate, and 6 puck sprung clutch back at the beginning of January. I was initially told 10 business days for delivery and after 3 conversations where each time I was told 'next friday' or 'just waiting on the flywheel' during February, Oleg at Clutchnet has gone radio silent on me. Will not return calls/messages.. no status updates... nothing... I know he's there as one Friday after I left a message around mid afternoon I had a friend immediately call him up and leave a message about how he was interested in a new clutch/pp/fw and he immediately returned his call.
I noticed on the web that a few others have had similar experiences online recently and a few similar posts at the BBB.
Anyone else had this type of experience with ClutchNet recently?
On another Vendor issue.. I had been dealing with AlphaFabIndustries/Motorsports out of MI as they advertised a complete stand alone harness for the LF3 retuned E92 ECU, including all sensors for 1.5K$, spendy but that's a ton of time I could save on this build. Last fall I looked up their reviews, contacted them, asked them as many questions as I could about their business, turnaround time, etc.. and paid them in full last October for the harness and DBW throttle pedal. Then located and shipped them an XTS LF3 ECU to speed up their process. They do answer their phone, "IF" you know the extension and I called them every Friday to every other Friday since the end of January inquiring as to the status of the Harness.. Every time I got answer of, We'll get right back to you and call you back today, it'll be ready next Wednesday for shipment, etc..etc...
I contacted them to see if they'd be will to just back out of the deal, refund me my payment, and return my ECU. They jumped at the opportunity, apologized, took my card # for the refund and stated that the ECU would be shipped by that Friday. That was 10 business days ago......aaannnnnddddd you guessed it.......nothing... Called yesterday, asked to send in an email to get a response by the end of the day by the owner....nothing... emailed this morning... nothing.... They are alive and well as per their facebook page, doing quite well from what it seems...even moved to a larger shop.
I've got every email correspondence between us that backs up the story with AlphaFab.
Has anyone ever gone through the credit card charge back scenario with a vendor? Advice, pointers, etc?
Really sorry to hear of such horrible experience with vendors. It seems the risks of dealing with alleged professionals regarding custom work is beginning to skyrocket. I had no idea one of the icons of custom performance John Hennessy, the goto for 1000 hp Vipers and Vettes is quickly re establishing himself as the scum of the performance aftermarket if what's being said can be believed (do a search), following some forum member's investigating a Hennessy CTS-V package on what is actually a V6 CTS that looks the look on the outside but, was about 400 hp and a few other items short underneath and on the inside.
My strong advice to you would be to send your desired inboard and outboard CV joints along with an axle that matches both spline patterns (if different) to Moser Racing and have a brand new pair of hardened axles made. Years back when I started with the F40, I had them make a pair of dual splined shaft nubs that fit the transmission splines and the Fiero female inboard joint cup. What I was not aware of at the time, is that two full length axles that would have connected the inboard F40 joint to the outboard Fiero joint would have cost the same. I realized that when later on I sent them a shaft to be cut and reground. It was ~$300 for the pair back in 2006.
Give it some thought because when you have a problem with a custom part, which I did, you can end up in a bind by having to shell out a lot more cash and deal with a wait time. You can easily replace a production joint, attached to a strong custom axle shaft, but if you damage a reground shaft, you have to start over. My reground shaft broke in the threaded area of the nut after it loosened, resulting in a terrible effort to locate a suitable replacement short shaft, because by then the parts stores had started importing new, low cost axles made in China that could not be disassembled for a chance at modification. A local transmission shop was not able to remove the outboard bearing hub with a 10k press, after I removed the joint cup with a plasma cutter.
If you decide to go with new axle shafts from Moser, be sure to tell them not to cut the snap ring groove to deep, they cut mine just like that found on the rear wheel drive axles which was too deep, so when I unwittingly assembled the axle, the outboard joint was locked on permanently from the ring moving away from centric, or the bordering spline edges not being chamfered, or both. I needed another G6 axle and Fiero passenger side manual axle which was stronger than the auto axles and fit the G6 outboard joint hub to combine into one.
You may also want to contact Nick Taliaferro https://www.genuinesaab.com/psi/index.htm He's the Saab Specialist that told me what my clutch and flywheel combo was just by looking at the pictures of the internals of the F40 that I crunched. He should have info you can use and would probably be far more reputable than what you appear to be experiencing now.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 03-27-2019).]
I read through your F40 axle saga many many times... and gave hudlow axle specific instructions and measurements about what I wanted...
My problems and woes are not with my axles, as hudlow axles knows their stuff and can also cut custom axles as well, but rather clutchnet for my clutch/pp/fw as well as the other vendor, Alpha Fab Industries, with the harness...
Thanks for the information about Hennessy....wow...just wow...
I am so impressed with people that have the knowledge, skills, and guts to take on projects like this. To take a totally different engine, trans, wiring, and make it work in a 33 year old car is just incredible. Good luck with your swap!
Sorry for my ignorance but is this the same twin turbo in the Cadillac? That's going to be a nice project!
Yes, this is the twin turbo LF3 out of the CTS and XTS, the transverse XTS in this case specifically, however the longitudinal would have been slightly more advantageous as I've converted almost all of the accessory and intercooler layouts to match the longitudinal version. The LF3 is 98% the same as the LF4 and at a MUCH lower price point, especially out of the XTS. All wiring and ECU/FPMU are from a manual LF4. The twin turbos 'might' fit into the bay and I will test fit shortly but engine bay dimensions at the top theoretically show otherwise. Even if they fit well I will look at going with LF4 turbos as they are more midrange oriented vs the XTS LF3 turbos are mostly low end... still eyeballing an BorgWarner EFR 8374
I am so impressed with people that have the knowledge, skills, and guts to take on projects like this. To take a totally different engine, trans, wiring, and make it work in a 33 year old car is just incredible. Good luck with your swap!
Thanks! The curve on this has been quite steep. Ultimately in the end it will be a Cadillac ATS-V with a fiero shell mostly as the fiero wiring as a whole is only a mere fraction of this engine harness'.
The charge pipes from the TD04's up to the intercooler extend just over 2" from either side of the valve covers and my measurements show about 1 - 1.5" max space on either side of the valve covers..... Granted that's me with just a tape measure. I'm going to try and see if they fit regardless just to verify at the very least and keep at the most (maybe upgrading to the LF4 TD04's with larger compressor). The charge pipes 'might' be able to be 'ovalized' to fit through the gap or even redirected toward the transmission and hooked over the heads to the intercooler but at that point I'm entering into the the same amount of fab work for a single. The EFR 8374 .90ar looks to be a great midrange setup for this engine. I'm not married to either solution though and will ultimately go with whichever makes the most since regarding cost, maintenance, and packaging.
The charge pipes from the TD04's up to the intercooler extend just over 2" from either side of the valve covers and my measurements show about 1 - 1.5" max space on either side of the valve covers..... Granted that's me with just a tape measure. I'm going to try and see if they fit regardless just to verify at the very least and keep at the most (maybe upgrading to the LF4 TD04's with larger compressor). The charge pipes 'might' be able to be 'ovalized' to fit through the gap or even redirected toward the transmission and hooked over the heads to the intercooler but at that point I'm entering into the the same amount of fab work for a single. The EFR 8374 .90ar looks to be a great midrange setup for this engine. I'm not married to either solution though and will ultimately go with whichever makes the most since regarding cost, maintenance, and packaging.
I'm assuming you've already seen the EFR 8374 up close. If not, you need to take a look at the dimensions, Borg Warner turbos are often pretty big despite the practical wheel sizes. I was told recently by a turbo tech from PT Turbo that a 62/62 turbo (about what the 8374 is) would be perfect for the 3.6L. I had my eye on the Borg Warner series, because the compressor map efficiencies looked really good, but when I started looking at the dimensions for placement ideas, I found they were too big for my plans.
Here is a Borg Warner turbo selection calculator in case you are not familiar with it, you probably already have it. It's detailed and has different turbos, including the 8374 in the inventory to show how the motor lines up on the map.
Very aware of the BW turbo sizes and have been through their calculators till I'm cross eyed 🙂 And due to the size that's exactly why I'm waiting until I get the block and trans on the cradle and up into the bay to get some hard measurements.
Preliminary measurements look to be yes...but we'll see
The charge pipes from the TD04's up to the intercooler extend just over 2" from either side of the valve covers and my measurements show about 1 - 1.5" max space on either side of the valve covers..... Granted that's me with just a tape measure. I'm going to try and see if they fit regardless just to verify at the very least and keep at the most (maybe upgrading to the LF4 TD04's with larger compressor). The charge pipes 'might' be able to be 'ovalized' to fit through the gap or even redirected toward the transmission and hooked over the heads to the intercooler but at that point I'm entering into the the same amount of fab work for a single. The EFR 8374 .90ar looks to be a great midrange setup for this engine. I'm not married to either solution though and will ultimately go with whichever makes the most since regarding cost, maintenance, and packaging.
I think fabbing two aluminum charge pipes will be much easier than fabbing a SS Y-pipe, a turbo mount and an aluminum Y-pipe... Although the complexity of the turbo-back exhaust could be a factor
Nice build! Why did you opt to go LF3 instead of adding a turbo to an LFX? I was looking into lf3/lf4s but they were priced through the roof.
I was going to build some (front) motor mounts very similar to what you did.
About you clutch, as an FYI, I run a stage 3 in my race car (corvette) very grippy, but honestly, I wouldn't put it in a street car as they never tend to last me very long. I opted to get a spec stage 3+ setup. Took about two weeks and haven't had any issues getting ahold of them. (Ordered the clutch through summit)
Looking fwd to the build!
[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 05-16-2020).]
Nice build! Why did you opt to go LF3 instead of adding a turbo to an LFX? I was looking into lf3/lf4s but they were priced through the roof.
I was going to build some (front) motor mounts very similar to what you did.
About you clutch, as an FYI, I run a stage 3 in my race car (corvette) very grippy, but honestly, I wouldn't put it in a street car as they never tend to last me very long. I opted to get a spec stage 3+ setup. Took about two weeks and haven't had any issues getting ahold of them. (Ordered the clutch through summit)
Looking fwd to the build!
I have a spec stage 3+ on the shelf with flywheel waiting to go in.
I went with the LF3 instead of an LFX because:
The LF3 already comes with forged internals (rebuild an LFX for boost and you're looking at LF3 prices) Integrated A/W intercooler Slightly Lower compression The PCV system was designed for the added crankcase pressure Integrated vacuum pump in the head to maintain predictive wastegate control The ECU, E92 is already setup for boost and wastegate control, and an compressor efficiency island editable map, etc..etc.. GretchenGotGrowl from the 5th Gen Camaro forum turbo'd an LFX and ended up having to rebuild it and going with many LF3 components The LF3 is 95% the same as an LF4 but at a fraction of the cost, especially out of an XTS-V
Think of it as comparing the L36 3800 vs L67 3800... the L67 is simple built better as it was made for boost and L36 was not.
The LFX is a great NA V6 it's just not ready for boost
