Been looking through the forums trying to find info.
Looking at a project that would use one of the following: Cadillac 4.9, Northstar, Aurora 4.0 with a manual transmission.
Seems most of the posts were from years back and I'm having a hard time figuring out what has worked the best. Basically, I'm looking to run one of the above on as much of an OEM tune as possible (no forced induction, nitrous, etc.) but with a manual trans. Essentially standalone but with VATS removed and able to deal with the MT. I've never done any tuning before and I'm not sure taking that on in addition to the rest of the project is worth it.
Seems all three engines are still available at the yards and parts are still out there. Northstar and Aurora are pretty darned expensive to rebuild. I have some experience with the 4.5/4.9. Seems engines that are more modern are quite a bit of work with a manual transmission, if even possible (excepting the LS series, which I haven't ruled out, but for now would prefer not to use)
Looks like there are a couple of vendors that can supply a standalone N*/Aurora ECM. I assume they're using the LS1/Shelby code as a base. Westers seems to come to the top of the list generally. I checked Alldata and there is no longer a listing for a 1998 Olds Shelby so it seems like I'd have to rely on one of those vendors for a solution. Is that the best solution for the N* variants or is there a DIY solution?
Can the stock 4.9 ECM be made to run a M/T vehicle without modifications? Was there a specific one that worked best? Or is it best to go with a vendor solution?
I could go with any of the above but I'm leaning towards the 4.9 because of the light weight and comparable simplicity, and having some background on them although the supply is dwindling a bit. Basically trying to figure out what ended up being the "recognized best" setup for each engine (if there even was one) before making a decision on which to go with. DIY-able or modifiable with a short learning curve would be great, but something like taking another vehicle and completely changing the tune from scratch is more work than I want to attempt.
Any advice? This is for a non-Fiero project, although the vehicle will be close in weight and spirit. Trying to leverage the knowledge you guys have built up - it's a tremendous forum and I've spent hours reading. What you guys have figured out and put together is just phenomenal.
I dunno, I mean you can probably pick up the engine cheap but I think it's a LOT of work for 200 horse. A LS4 would net at least 300, and be a more well defined swap.
I dunno, I mean you can probably pick up the engine cheap but I think it's a LOT of work for 200 horse. A LS4 would net at least 300, and be a more well defined swap.
Not even an honorable mention of the cad 500?!?!? Lol mating that bad boy up to a manual would be one tough task for a transverse engine bay. however you have less computer crap to worry about (read that as basically none) will this be going into a transverse engine bay? Also have you put any thought on a carb conversion with the 4.9? That would probably be the easiest solution of what you have posted here. Sorry for the less than helpful advice but computers aren’t my strong suit.
I can tell you a little about the Cadillac HT (4100, 4500, and 4.9) as I have an 88 Fiero GT with a Cadillac HT4500 and a 440T4.
The HT4100 has a deservedly horrible reputation, although apparently some were worse than others. The HT4500s apparently got stuck unfairly with some of the reputation from the 4100s. Well maintained, and not abused they have proven to be very reliable, although not completely issue free. The technology mating transaxle to the engine was changing during that time, so the right year may be a fairly simple fix to get you set up the way you want. You may want to check out http://johns49performance.com/why-49.html !
I"m looking to put this in a longitudinal configuration, probably with a T5 or an AR5 - both of which have 60 degree bellhousings available to match the block. The 4.9 engine seems like a good match with either trans. Northstar is potentially pushing it, that's why I started looking at the Aurora 4.0 too.
I understand Tunercat has files of the 2240 PCM that ran on the Caddies. I guess I"m not opposed to learning to tune if I have to. I just don't want to acquire all the parts, put the thing together, and then find out I can't get it to work.
I guess I'd basically have to supply the right VSS signal to the 2240, turn off or bypass Passkey/VATS. I imagine I could figure that out with the right software. The gray area for me is tuning the PCM to deal with the lack of an automatic trans. I've tried to work around this with unprogrammable Chrysler PCMs and never was able to get it to work. I plan on running a bone stock 4.9 so all I need to figure out is how I'm going to get the PCM to live without the automatic attached and still run properly. I don't want to actually change anything about the basic OEM engine operation unless absolutely necessary.
I'm running a 4.9 with an Allante intake, and a manual trans. All you really need to do is ground the appropriate trans wires to make the PCM think it's talking to an auto tranny, in "drive". I made some other minor changes to my tune, to accommodate the Allante stuff, but they were, as I said, minor.
The other option is to run a 7730 ECM with a 305 Chevy tune. It will be much more flexible, since the 305 was available with a manual trans. It will almost surely require some tweaking to run optimally, however.
Tunercat is what I use, but there are like five or six different definition files available for the 4.9, depending upon year and options. I've never seen anything like it.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-01-2018).]
Thanks Raydar, that's exactly the info I wasn't able to find.
I'm in IT but I've not played around with tuning. I suppose once I get over the initial learning curve, it won't be as daunting as it appears.
If I get something like TunerCat, on the 2240 how does one get the code out of and back into the PCM? Are the chips removable and then you need a reader/writer/burner or is there some sort of interface cable?
I was thinking I could pick up a PCM on ebay and get the software and associated bits, and then just play around prior to getting myself an engine. Probably a good way to get my feet wet.
If memory serves, back then the OBD1 Cadillacs had an interface into the diagnostics through the climate control system. IIRC, it was more detailed than code readers, at least code readers of the time, as far as getting all the factory codes out and you could do some parameter tweaking as well. Anyone doing these swaps on Fieros retain the climate controls, or at least have them available to plug in for diagnostics? I think it would require the equivalent of a BCM, which probably is a lot of extra wiring.
The Northstar & Aurora engines are problematic in longitudinal use because of the rear mounted waterpump. That makes them great for transverse use, though.
Ryan at GMTuners has the base Shelby .BIN file, so the supply is there. My Northstar car is running that Shelby setup and it runs well. I found a clutch switch combo that makes it work just as the factory intended with a manual transmission.
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
Performance is not about horsepower.
Torque is King - always.
I guess it's a good thing the Northstar makes more torque than the 4.9, then.
Thanks for the link. Bulk of the postings I've been looking through are around 2010 or so when there was a flurry of activity. A lot of those link to sites or pics that no longer exist so it's been a little bit hard to get a handle on what worked and didn't. Sometimes I don't know if what was linked to was even relevant.
This thread has been a huge help and I appreciate everyone's input.
Cadillac engines have always been 'under-rated' with the advertised power levels.
My 95 STS was rated at 300 hp / 295 tq.
Yeah, right......
I believe that some of this can be explained by HP ratings.... WHP, BHP and SAE HP. If an engine is rated at 300 SAE HP or better yet 300 WHP IMO thats quite a lot of power.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by olejoedad: ... The engine has enough low-end torque to break bracket bosses off of the side of the block.
Don't ask me how I know
I use an ALDL connector to read the operating parameters and codes. You don't need all the buttons from the original car.
The chips are soldered into a MEM-CAL carrier. (I soldered a socket into mine, so they're easily removable.)
The ones I use are 27SF512 EEPROMS. They need to be programmed, external to the PCM. Since they are EEPROMS, they do not need to be erased prior to programming. The old data is just overwritten. Craig Moates used to sell Flash programmers for OBD1 (Like the 2240) PCMs, but I never bothered with one, so I can't comment.
Two things, horsepower is a function of torque and rpm.
Second, the 4.9 has 275 lb*ft, the ls4 has 323... which is still a bigger number...
I agree that an engine with a peaky torque curve is not nearly as desirable as one with a big flat one, but it's apples to apples here. But like, a regular apple to a bigger apple.
My point was that a lot of people pass on the 4.9 due to the 200hp rating, not realizing the engine makes more torque than the popular 3800 SC - across the power band. Coupled with the light weight, it's a great powerplant.
The big attraction for me is the light weight and broad power band.
It's also a much simpler motor than the Northstar and a lot cheaper to rebuild, although I notice that new cylinder liners are difficult to come by these days. The whole timesert issue on the N* isn't a huge challenge to do, but the kits cost more than a used engine. I'm also not sure I can find a local shop to do any machine work on them - I'm in a very rural area. At least with the 4.5, it's a basic two valve pushrod V8 essentially and potentially if I need the liners cleaned up, they're easy enough to ship elsewhere if no one locally will take on that job.
I briefly looked at LS engines and, while they are impressive, it's way more power than I need and they aren't exactly cheap these days. The 4.8 would have been ideal, but ever since Hot Rod did their article about building a high-rev LS with that block, the prices have skyrocketed. I also want to run a manual trans and anything above a 4.8 is too much for a T5 or AR5 (IMHO) for longevity. T56 is expensive, big and heavy. Most of the other trans choices have integrated bellhousings making the swap a bit more of a challenge and adding more unknowns to the mix.
All things considered, the 4.9 with a T5 or AR5 makes the most sense in my case. Really the biggest downside is that good 4.9s are getting hard to find as the mileage is racking up and the host cars get melted down. Been 20+ years since they were new and they haven't exactly been cherished in the intervening years.
But I once had an Allante and rebuilt the 4.5 in it, so I've been inside them before and know what I"m getting into mechanically. Thanks to you guys, the electronic side looks a lot less daunting.
Have you thought about a BMW V8? M60 swaps make fast E30's. They're not that expensive, either as most of the engines went into 740's which suffered huge depreciation.
Horsepower is a unit of measurement of power at the rate that it comes on. The Cadillac 4.9L is a high torque engine but it redlines somewhere around 5,000 RPM. To be fair about it an engine analysis of the torque and horsepower curves must be examined before a particular engine is determined suitable for a given application. From an online dyno test on the 4.9L Cadillac : From 1600-3200 rpm the torque curve remained nearly flat: almost 270 lb-ft the entire time. Even at idle (750 rpms) it was producing about 220 lb-ft! That should make for excellent street performance and with the right gearing the car should be quite fun to drive, In contrast the Northstar gives 149 ft lbs of torque around idle speed and 312 ft bs of torque at 4800RPM the 4.9L 275 ft lbs . Up until about 2500rpm the torque of the 4.9L exceeds the N* but the N* does pull ahead after that. All in all the Cadillac 4.9L gives quite a bit in terms of performance vs cost. The engines are still plentiful and inexpensive. It may be a bit old school but a good DIY engine swap can cost as low as $1000. The one that I did cost about $1,600 .
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Have you thought about a BMW V8? M60 swaps make fast E30's. They're not that expensive, either as most of the engines went into 740's which suffered huge depreciation.
I haven't considered them before. Is there a manual transmission that will connect and are there PCMs available that can live without an AT attached?
This how I handle the quick replacement of eproms or flash memory on the 4.9L ECM. I use the Moates adapter. You could do it that way Radar did but this plug -in solution eliminated some very tedious soldering but.... the case needed modification (slight cutting). I also use 27SF512 memory chips and program with Tunercat and a dedicated definition file for the 2240 ECM.
From an online dyno test on the 4.9L Cadillac : From 1600-3200 rpm the torque curve remained nearly flat: almost 270 lb-ft the entire time. Even at idle (750 rpms) it was producing about 220 lb-ft! That should make for excellent street performance and with the right gearing the car should be quite fun to drive, In contrast the Northstar gives 149 ft lbs of torque around idle speed and 312 ft bs of torque at 4800RPM the 4.9L 275 ft lbs . Up until about 2500rpm the torque of the 4.9L exceeds the N* but the N* does pull ahead after that.
Not sure what test you were looking at, but my Northstar made >200 ftlbs off idle. The 4.9 is never more than 20 ftlbs ahead and at that not for long.
I haven't considered them before. Is there a manual transmission that will connect and are there PCMs available that can live without an AT attached?
Absolutely. Of the Germans, BMW was the only one offering a stick with their V8 midsize car. BMW nomenclature calls the transmission the S6S-420G. There was also a version of the 5 speed S5D-310Z that has the V8 bellhousing pattern.
Marc is doing an Audi 4.2L V8 and Jetta transaxle. Most Audi V8s were AWD but Audi made a FWD 5 or 6 speed that mates. A 2.7tt Audi V6 would be a powerful choice. It's easily powered to over 400hp on stock internals. The Porsche Boxster S is a healthy transaxle that works with the higher hp Audi engines.
The presence of this thread brings up a couple of good points. 1) The Cadillac HT engine is still a good swap for a Fiero. 2) There is still good and bad info out there, but as time has gone on it is harder to find.
