I just replaced the right rear hub assembly on my wife's '84, and noticed the solid brake rotors again. This got me to wondering whether there might be any way to fit the car with VENTED rotors at all four wheels... The car is becoming so enjoyable to drive that its ability to stop well is becoming more important. So, does anybody have experience with such modification? Thanks in advance for any/all input...
The easiest and very effective upgrade is to use GrandAm/Beretta front calipers and rotors on all four corners. There are several good write-ups available on the procedure.
...my wife's '84 ...noticed the solid brake rotors again. The car is becoming so enjoyable to drive that its ability to stop well is becoming more important.
I autocrossed my '84 for three years using stock brakes in good condition with NO stopping issues. I doubt your wife is going to drive her Fiero harder than I drive mine.
the wife might not drive the car so hard. I, on the other hand....
Seriously though... unless the car is being driven hard up and down long winding mountain/canyon roads, brake fade is not going to be an issue with the solid rotors. Track days might've produced brake fade, but I never had a problem locking up all four wheels at autocross.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 03-14-2018).]
I think the Grand Am brake upgrade on the front is probably the best bang for the buck. The rears problem is if you upgrade you lose the parking brake usually. Go too big on the front and you get a lock up problem. I have 11" Lebaron discs with smaller 2 piston Willwood calipers front and stock rears. No problems now but a lot of fiddling to get to where they are now. Works great on the track.
I autocrossed my '84 for three years using stock brakes in good condition with NO stopping issues.
On my '84 Indy, I did not want to change the basic hardware (rotors, calipers etc.) I installed braided line brake hoses. I installed Porterfield R4-S brake pads. https://www.porterfield-bra...eld+Brakes/R4-S.html
I think it stops almost as hard as my GT with the LeBaron rotor upgrade w/ Wagner Thermo-Quiet pads. At the very least I've never felt like I was "running out of brake" at any time with the Indy setup...
I think the Grand Am brake upgrade on the front is probably the best bang for the buck. The rears problem is if you upgrade you lose the parking brake usually. Go too big on the front and you get a lock up problem. I have 11" Lebaron discs with smaller 2 piston Willwood calipers front and stock rears. No problems now but a lot of fiddling to get to where they are now. Works great on the track.
I do not recommend the G/A on the fronts only, the system is not balanced due to M/C bore and the differences in caliper piston size.
Use G/A front and rear, an early 90's S-10 Blazer (2WD) M/C and an 88 Fiero bias valve.
Your system will self adjust and be perfectly balanced, with no need for the S-10 vacuum booster.
And the brakes will put you through the windshield if you want them to without feeling touchy.
My car is an 86 and when I had the full lebaron setup (RCC kit) it was not balanced at all even though the calipers had the same bore. The stock proportion valve sends way to much power to the fronts resulting in usually the right front tire locking up. I have not seen a thread on someone with GrandAm brakes on the rear as well I would be interested in seeing that set up. But I am very happy with my brakes as they are. I use a Willwood proportion valve in conjunction with a stock disabled prop valve and I have no lock up problems and great brakes. It would be nice if someone would start making the prop valve adjuster that was for sale in the mall a while back and then it would be no problem to run a variety of brake combinations. One thing that is really nice about the Lebaron kit is the huge variety of calipers that fit. Any GM metric caliper or GM metric aftermarket caliper will fit .SSBC,Willwood and Howe all make a variety of calipers that fit, in single and double piston, AL and steel body construction.
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-15-2018).]
The setup I described in my post above is what I have on my 86SE, with the exception of the 88 bias valve. The brakes are superb. I have since been using 88 bias valves on the otherwise same setup, and the balance is better with the the change to the 88 bias valve.
Here are the results of the 1986 Fiero GT as done by Car and Driver when the car was new with stock brakes. No track testing was performed but if you think the stock brakes are any good this might be an eye opener.
Hopefully the page is legible but really this graph is all you need to see:
The MR2 had the best brakes but really they are only on a par with modern econoboxes. Modern performance cars stop from 70 MPH in the 160 foot range. Fade was not really addressed because they did not track the car or take it in to a hilly area.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
Yup, Fiero brakes are good for most drivers. Better w/ good pads like Wagner TQ and some others (TQ for Fiero is back w/ newer low copper formula) but Not "performance"/"race" pads that often don't work driving on the street. (Many want more heat to work and don't get it driving on the street.) Fiero 84-87 WTQ Front Part No: MX261, Rear Part No: MX262 and often have a rebate once or twice a year making them cheap or cheaper that basic pads.
Note: Driving down a hill can and often will cause fade problems for ANY brake system regardless vented vs. non-vented rotors. Many things can cause this but most are Poor Driving. Just 2 examples: Many new commercial truck drivers have had huge fade problems or wreck when brake die from overheating driving in hill country because they drive too fast and do not know the roads their on. GM use non-vented rotors on other cars and older models like most Chevy Monza. My mother had one soon after moving to hill country and had front brake rotors warping mainly because driving too fast down a hill w/ a hard right turn ~2/3 down. She change driving a bit and stopped having brake problems.
Rebuilding/restoring any brakes can be costly. Fiero New Pads and Rotors are over $200 plus 84-87 front rotors often needs new bearings and seals. I spend over $600 just in parts to restore my 87 a few years ago. If that's to much then you shouldn't have old cars. That's cheaper then many and more so if have ABS problems. Just an ABS "module" cost $700 to $1000, even more, for many of them. (Is Why I tell Many buying OBD2 scanners to buy a unit that reads ABS and SRS. Saves you money and time in the long run when either light in the dash turns on.)
"SS soft lines is Better" is push by TFS and others. If you want better then OE Fiero and most other old cars... Use OE style w/ SAE J1401 "rubber." In short, 100% direct replacement and much better "rubber." See https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129208.html
The GA myth again... The original 4 wheel "GA Upgrade" was used by a race team on a race car trailer to a track. (Site is long gone and I don't remember name.) Everyone else claiming 2 or 4 wheel "upgrade" is safe And/Or legal to drive on the street is fooling them selves and/or push crap on PFF and many others often to make Money like TFS that only copies maybe ~1/3 of Internet "Directions."
If you wreck your car w/ crap "upgrades" then expect big problems when you hurt/killed anyone. Cops can arrest you and/or person(s) or family of them will sue and your Insurance often won't help. If they pay payout is capped in the policy, Most owners have Minimum State Law requires, and often lawyers will not stop at that even at highest caps. Some people claim GA "upgrades" are legal in their state but ignore many drive in/thru another state that's illegal there. Even if you pass inspection or have no inspection w/ GA and other "upgrades," many states require you to have working parking/emergency brakes. See my Cave, Brake Upgrade
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
In my case, the OEM brakes were new, and operated as they should. Stopping distance was as OEM, but during hard driving, I experienced noticeable brake fade. Initially I only changed the front setup, the long pedal travel prior to engagement was disconcerting. I then changed over the rears, and was concerned about the long travel due to the larger caliper piston bore on all 4 corners. I then went with a larger bore M/C to move more fluid and was impressed with the system. My stopping distance was as good or better than OEM when cold, once the brakes had warmed they did not fade during hard driving, and the ability to modulate the pedal to avoid lockup was improved. I then used the 88 bias valve to restore proper F/R balance.
This is my experience with the 'mythical' upgrade. My car has been driven by many experienced Fiero peeps, and every one of them has commented about how much better the brakes are.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 03-15-2018).]
I agree. I have Grand Am brakes on all four corners, an S-10 Blazer MC, an upgraded Sardonyx Brake Booster, and stainless steel braided lines. I was happy with my stock 85 GT brakes but after a 3800 swap I wanted to upgrade just to be on the "safer" side. I am very happy with the result. I had not known about the 88 bias valve.
One of the reasons I went back to a set of stock rear brakes was if I ever wanted to sell the car it can not pass a safety without an ebrake. The other 2 reasons are if you get pulled over at a roadside safety check here in Ontario the ebrake is the first thing they look at because they know they don't work on a lot of older cars. Automatic fail. And the last reason is the stock disc and calipers are a very light setup compared to anything with a vented rotor.
Stock 87GT braking system. Stainless braided lines. Drilled and vented rotors. Poly all around. Very grippy Firestone Indy 500's. She still locks them up. I very often drive in the mountains for entertainment. 30,000 miles on the Wagner Thermoquiets.
Originally posted by 2.5: Correct me if I am wrong but the only downside of the Grand Am brake swap is the loss of the ebrake in the rear.
Not in long shot does that cover problems. I'm not bothering re-posting cave articles and even that only covers main highlights.
Most that claim GA crap upgrade fixes anything or worse everything should warn many not to trust it. Too bad that very few get the "Too Good to be True" applies here. 99+% of "bolt on upgrades" using parts made for others cars have many problems. Often Major Problems that can kill. Just 1 Big problem is many still believe the proportional valve is main brake balance item and is simply not true for almost all cars. Sometimes you can't install "better" brakes for same car build for different years, not just Fiero 87/88 brake "wall." One Chevy Monza version had 5 lug wheel and heavy brakes and many other changes you couldn't move them to other versions. Ford had many suspension and brake changes for Mustang and others in a just the 70's... Even the lowly Pinto had them and parts was not backward compatible.
88 Fiero is so great? Maybe but GM cut cost at same time making problems too. So 88 Fiero Prop Valve is the main brake balance point but the truth is that Prop Valves can die w/o warning until you spin out days to years later. This is why most cars have brake bias built into the system w/o the Prop being active all the time. Same for brakes... All 4 wheels have same rotors pads etc the less cost for GM. Very few vehicles on the planet have front and rear service brakes identical. Those "Weak" Front axle bearing sets? Were likely made by same people that made the "Weak" rear hubs and easy to install at the front end assembly line. Same BS is people claiming 88 dump the engine blower so safe to dump them on all Fiero... Yes GM added CS130 but they installed that in most vehicles by then... Main Reason is Cost to install it like Raw Parts Cost, Inventory Cost, and Labor Cost at the Real Fiero Factory. Same for deleting Cradle bushings. Improved performance/handling? Is a side effect for dumping these items saving GM Many Thousands per year.
GM saved Many $ per Car, Tens of Thousands at minimum per Year, by changing or Deleting those parts alone and didn't care if car stops working after 2+ years or whatever most warranties ran out at the time.
Unless you race, or run down miles long mountain roads, the only issue with either style of Fiero brakes is pad material. compound suitable for the wife to drive to the mall but certainly nowhere nearly up to spirited driving on street or solo competition. Factory pads were middle of the road . I owned both 87 and 88 GTs at the same time and there is no significant difference between them except bit more thermal margin on the 88.
I have seen so many people claim the brakes were crappy as an excuse to upgrade to huge calipers and rotors, when all they needed was to use a decent compound.
Porterfield will sell you a set of R4-S for the 87 or 88 which will keep you out of trouble on the street. Unless you live at the top of Pike's Peak and are late for an appointment, there should be no legal street situation that will fade those pads out. I ran my 88 GT turbo for 20 years with around 300 bhp and never managed to fade my pads.
Originally posted by BillS: Unless you race, or run down miles long mountain roads, the only issue with either style of Fiero brakes is pad material. compound suitable for the wife to drive to the mall but certainly nowhere nearly up to spirited driving on street or solo competition. Factory pads were middle of the road . I owned both 87 and 88 GTs at the same time and there is no significant difference between them except bit more thermal margin on the 88.
I have seen so many people claim the brakes were crappy as an excuse to upgrade to huge calipers and rotors, when all they needed was to use a decent compound...
A Huge Problem is many to most believe Car&Drivers et al Trade Rags publish reliable data or even has valid reviews. They are nothing more then Top Gear "loving" or "hating" Tesla and many others but these Rags are Bibles to many self important fools that keep repeating BS years even Decades later. (Tesla sued Top Gear for BS push by BBC and Clarkson when they "reviewed" the car. Google: tesla top gear lawsuit )
C&D and nearly all of TV and Print media gets most of money from Ads. Ads from GM etc that will cancel if get more then 1-2 negative reviews. The Money you pay at News Stands or for Subscriptions is a Tiny Fraction of the money that publishers need just to open the office.
That is Why most people believe that Fiero have a "Horrible" "Bump Steer Problem" that is not true. More so went you replace crap GM Shock and Struts w/ Better units from Gabriel Monroe etc.
When the brakes for the Fiero were designed, they were designed for the stock Fiero wheel/tire package, stock curb weight, tire compound, and the national speed limit of 55 mph.
Today, there are lots of Fieros running with larger/heavier wheel tire packages, heavier that stock curb weight (sound systems, interior upgrades, body swaps, engine & transmission upgrades, etc), much better tire compounds (so the lockup limit is much higher), average interstate speeds are 75-85 mph, and in major cities you can be running 70+ mph to keep up with traffic with minimal distance to the car in front (if there is a 3 car length gap, someone will pull into your lane and take the space)... all of these items make the brakes work harder and generate a lot more heat than the design parameters back in the 80s.
Imagine a panic stop at 70 mph where the stock fiero on its best day could stop in 200 ft, but on this day you were following anyone of these minivans. ... Looks like a risky position.
Now ask yourself... Does your car have 16" and larger wheels? Do you have an amp, subs, lots of leather interior, or 50 lbs of stuff in the car? Do you have a 4 speed auto transmission or the F40, do you have a heavier than stock engine, do you have extra body panels that add weight? Are you driving faster than 70? If you answer yes to any of these, then there is an even higher risk.
Sure, keep 500 feet between you and that minivan and it doesn't matter, but how many times a day do you have someone jump in front of you and hit the brakes...
The Fiero brakes were adequate back in the 80s, but there have been a lot of changes since then both to the Fiero itself as well as the overall driving conditions the fiero will be subjected to.
I am not a fan of blindly stating that stock fiero brakes were good in the 80s, so they are still good for all fieros under all conditions, and in all environments, in 2018.
I am not a fan of haphazardly mixing and matching brake components.
I do think people need to make informed decisions based on their particular fiero, how they drive it, and where they drive it.
Originally posted by fieroguru: When the brakes for the Fiero were designed, they were designed for the stock Fiero wheel/tire package, stock curb weight, tire compound, and the national speed limit of 55 mph.
Today, there are lots of Fieros running with larger/heavier wheel tire packages, heavier that stock curb weight (sound systems, interior upgrades, body swaps, engine & transmission upgrades, etc), much better tire compounds (so the lockup limit is much higher), average interstate speeds are 75-85 mph, and in major cities you can be running 70+ mph to keep up with traffic with minimal distance to the car in front (if there is a 3 car length gap, someone will pull into your lane and take the space)... all of these items make the brakes work harder and generate a lot more heat than the design parameters back in the 80s.
Imagine a panic stop at 70 mph where the stock fiero on its best day could stop in 200 ft, but on this day you were following anyone of these minivans. ... Looks like a risky position.
Now ask yourself... Does your car have 16" and larger wheels? Do you have an amp, subs, lots of leather interior, or 50 lbs of stuff in the car? Do you have a 4 speed auto transmission or the F40, do you have a heavier than stock engine, do you have extra body panels that add weight? Are you driving faster than 70? If you answer yes to any of these, then there is an even higher risk.
Sure, keep 500 feet between you and that minivan and it doesn't matter, but how many times a day do you have someone jump in front of you and hit the brakes...
The Fiero brakes were adequate back in the 80s, but there have been a lot of changes since then both to the Fiero itself as well as the overall driving conditions the fiero will be subjected to.
I am not a fan of blindly stating that stock fiero brakes were good in the 80s, so they are still good for all fieros under all conditions, and in all environments, in 2018.
I am not a fan of haphazardly mixing and matching brake components.
I do think people need to make informed decisions based on their particular fiero, how they drive it, and where they drive it.
Sorry but most of this is same stuff that many think you can add bigger brakes springs etc to cheap trunks then haul heavier cargo. Wrong on so many levels and They find that cops can and will stop, force to put vehicle and often trailer on the scales then write a Big ticket for overweight. (Example: Virginia Big trucks often get $100's to $1000's in fines.) Cops Insurance Co etc go by GVW/GVWR as labeled in your car/truck and listed by manufacturer for use by DMV and others. Cops can stop a car for overweight/overloaded too Plus illegal lights, tint and many other problems... but yet YT is full of whiners claiming cops harass them.
Then Add that now most are Poor Drivers that Speed Tailgate and worse and wonder how you regularly get 2-10 vehicle pileups on most roads. (I'm waiting for lawsuits w/ auto-brake cars that "failed" for same reason.) But I don't "slam my brakes" often even then.
Stopping from 70mph are now a normal standard for many Countries. wftb only highlight a few in above chart but is tested w/ OEM pads and other parts like OE Shock and Struts. GM used iffy pads but also very cheap shock and struts and that's including WS6 and other RPO for many cars not just Fiero. Just w/ better pads and suspension parts, Fiero can stop in same or better distances as many current EU and other imports.
Many Custom Cars go to Wilwood et al for a Real Upgrade. I don't have a problem w/ them. But in "Fiero World" We have many iffy to outright crap "upgrades" slapped on the car by DIY'er following Dubious Internet Directions and car is run without testing by anyone w/ Valid Expertise like by a Brake Engineer. Can't even both to see when parking brake work.... Oh Gee... They Deleted that and never bothering to read many states requires it because They Do Not Care.
Far Worse, Many bought an "Upgrade" by "Vendors" claiming complete garbage like TFS pushing same crap GA "upgrade" to people thinking they had an "expert" design it. Wrong. More likely someone w/ access to a machine shop barely followed part of same "directions" on the net. This is on the net so must be true...Not. TFS only recently put "For use with upgraded braking systems that use calipers with larger pistons, not for use with stock brakes." for Big MC. TFS "upgrades" are a part of many thinking can use OE Rear brakes w/ GA Front and stock or big MC. Neither setup is good.
Their "upgrade" started about Same time TFS tried to copy and sold Rodney's coolant pipes and only stopped and send all parts to Rodney because PFF "protest." TFS has a long history of cheap knockoffs sold at premium price and even illegal parts. Yet fools think the store is their best friends... TFS thanks you for be a loyal sucker. Many of the Repop parts claim they use same molds etc to make exact GM lenses is not true and few buyers even know how poorly made they are.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 03-18-2018).]
You know the last time I went to a GM dealer for parts he told me nothing was available for my car. Maybe he was just being lazy but really GM abandoned the Fiero years ago. So like most people who work on old cars we adapt and get parts where ever we can get them. Upgraded brake parts are available for almost every new car on the road. They are so common that cops don’t even notice them anymore. In the case of a new modern car they are not really necessary. But track testing exposes weaknesses in even new car bakes. C&D magazines Lightning Lap issue has had total brake failures in just a few laps of testing. One car was totaled and the manufacturer changed to a different pad for that model of car. Arguing about wether it is right to upgrade brakes or not is pointless.
------------------ 86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo rear SLA suspension QA1 coilovers on tube arms
push by TFS and others.
... Looks like a risky position. 
... Looks like a risky position. 
