I was wondering if the 2.8 liter v6 from a 1986 Camaro is the same as a 2.8 Fiero engine (mine has stuck timing cover bolts and I want to do a performance build with custom intake and pistons so want an engine that all parts come off without difficulty) also I am looking to do a 7730 ECU swap but I don't know where to mount the required sensors for the swap also is there a place to mount the knock sensor or do I have to drill it if so is drilling a hole for the sensor difficult. I have many questions about this swap and I was wonder how difficult it is and how hard it would be to get a tune done to the engine. the main reason for the swap is to get better tune customizing since I wont be able to get all of the modifications done right away so a lot of mods including intake, headers, fuel injectors, higher compression pistons, and ported heads just to name a few.
The knock sensor can be installed by removing a bolt in the trunk side of the block, near the center freeze plug, but installing it directly into the block can give high knock counts on a 2.8, according to Georgia Fieros member f85gtron. He mounted it into an adaptor in that location and seemed to remedy the problem. It can also be installed on the top of the engine, where the cold start injector or fan switch is located. Both those are eliminated with the conversion to the 7730 ECM.
You can keep your distributor or go DIS. DIS will require a crankshaft sensor. I don't know how folks have worked that out, but there are aftermarket sensors that mount and read from the harmonic balancer. If you're doing the conversion on a 3.4, the crankshaft sensor port is already in the trunk side of the block.
There are two good threads on the Georgia Fieros Message Board at www.gafiero.org One is titled Look Ma....No Dizzy! and the other is titled 1227730. You can do a search to pull up those threads. Both f85gtron and ron768 are PFF members, so you can contact them through the PFF memberslist for specific questions.
I solved the "phantom knock" issue by installing the knock sensor at the end of a 90° elbow to the trunk-side block location. That was a bandage, but later figured out that the calpak cyborg chip thingy should be from a v6 donor of simular displacement and the knock sensor should match. Different sensors have different ohm ratings (sensitivity). A mismatch will produce the condition I experienced. Some folks have experienced a similar condition with automatic transmissions. I guess the drive train gives off the right frequency for the sensors too.
To answer your first question, the 3.4 swap requires starter holes drilled on the opposite side to work, so I'd imagine the same goes for the 2.8 if snatched out of a rear-drive vehicle. The timing cover may be different, along with the oil pan, so in order to use it, you'll probably end up still fighting the old 2.8 to use the timing cover anyways. Kind of defeats the purpose of your original question. The fiero top end is more desirable because the heads are h.o. design, carried over for use by the 93-95 3.4 camarobird. Ron
[This message has been edited by f85gtron (edited 09-14-2017).]
do you know of a place where I could get a 2.8 knock sensor. also how would I be able to bypass the knock sensor. I always thought that a you needed a signal from the sensor that tells the engine that everything is correct. And if I do need the timing cover is there anyway to free a stuck bolt that is about a 1/4 inch inside we have tried thermal shocking and welding a nut on (that's the reason why its 1/4 inside the cover since we broke it off farther inside when we tried the welding trick) if not is there a place where I could find a timing cover that will fit. ill have to look into the forums you told me about
The late 80's cars like Cimmaron, , Sunbird, Cavalier and Beretta had knock sensors in a 2.8 engine. Probably the Oldsmobile Ciera and others of that era that used the 2.8. As Ron suggested, also get the coilpack with it's ignition control module. Firing order should be the same as the Fiero so the coilpack cylinder markings should work for routing spark plug wires.
so if a get a 2.8l knock sensor from one of those vehicle do you think it would be able to send the correct information to the ecu or would I need something to convert the signal sent by the sensor to something that the ecu could read. from what I have seen sensors from different vehicles dont send the correct signal to the ecu causing the ecu to read the sensor wrong which could cause tune issues or break the engine. ------------------ 1986 fiero se 2.8 v6 4 speed
[This message has been edited by Eltsyrk (edited 09-14-2017).]
I've not done the conversion yet, but I have a 3.4 that still has it's knock sensor in the side of the block with the pigtail just hanging there. My 7730 that will be installed is from a Beretta. I may have to install a sensor from a Beretta if I have tuning issues. I don't remember if it was a 2.8 or 3.1, but the coilpack and ignition module that will go onto the engine when the conversion is done, is from my 3.4 as it was installed in the 94 Camaro.
I've read that the knock sensor should be compatible with the ECM at a minimum. Since the stock 2.8 didn't have a knock sensor, probably any sensor might give you issues that could be worked out similar to f85gton's method. I think most take the easier route and install the sensor up top in the intake manifold where the fan or cold start injector switches were eliminated. I think ron768 placed his up there. There's a lot of noise on the bottom end of a 2.8, especially if it has miles on it and is a pre-88.
would I be able to program a knock sensor to work with a 7730 ecu or if I get a beretta ecu would I have to get a beretta knock sensor? I have never done any tuning and I have never even seen a tuning program so I don't know what can be tuned or tweaked or if you can only change the amount of fuel that's put into the engine
The 7730 is very tunable. But tuning isn't for the novice. f85gtron has done some extensive tuning and is quite adept at it. There are others here, also. The 7730 is used in swaps with engines that never used the 7730. The 93-95 3.4 had a different ECM, not a 7730, but it's still a good choice for our applications.
GMTuners aka Sinister Performance does or did tuning, also. I think phonedawgz also tunes.
If you're keeping the dizzy, and not going dis, the knock sensor is not required for operation when converting to 7730. It's nice, but not required. If you're going turbo, or dis, then yes. You'll hear the detonation and know when to back off timing. My recommendation is to focus on the basic 7730 conversion and get your motor built, but keep in mind, it's easier to install and wire this stuff up While the motor is out.
[This message has been edited by f85gtron (edited 09-14-2017).]
Agghhh. You'll hear the detonation! Are you serious?
By then it's too late.
Detonation is pretty serious for an engine.
Yeas ago, I ran a turbo engine with no knock sensor. I either got bad gas, or put too low octane in the tank. I was accelerating and the engine bucked. I thought it was just a hiccup. Here and there it did the same and I thought little of it, until one day it started blowing smoke.
I cracked a piston. It was a hairline crack I only found after I examined it closely after I tore it all down.
Those knock sensors are tuned to pick up detonation and dial back timing to save your engine and yourself a lot of money.
I consider knock sensors an absolutely necessity, and you cant depend on your five sense to alert you.
I just picked up a 12209614 ecu from a oldsmobile van (from salvage yard for free) running a 3.4 would this work as a good replacement or is it still better to run a 7730 I heard that running anything newer than a 7730 requires more sensors and isn't really worth the extra work put into it
Agghhh. You'll hear the detonation! Are you serious?
By then it's too late.
Detonation is pretty serious for an engine.
Yeas ago, I ran a turbo engine with no knock sensor. I either got bad gas, or put too low octane in the tank. I was accelerating and the engine bucked. I thought it was just a hiccup. Here and there it did the same and I thought little of it, until one day it started blowing smoke.
I cracked a piston. It was a hairline crack I only found after I examined it closely after I tore it all down.
Those knock sensors are tuned to pick up detonation and dial back timing to save your engine and yourself a lot of money.
I consider knock sensors an absolutely necessity, and you cant depend on your five sense to alert you.
Agree 100%, once serious knock (detonation) develops it doesn't take long before your engine blows. The challenge though is to get rid of the phantom knocks so that the engine makes optimum power. Don't know what knock sensor would do this but the idea of mounting on an extended tube is appealing. The 3.4L engine can be particularly noisy and mine runs the 85 ECM with the feature flag turned on, with the ESC (interface) module and knock sensor. It has forged pistons that also add to the phantom knock and its been an ongoing problem since the engine was built.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
You can keep your distributor or go DIS. DIS will require a crankshaft sensor. I don't know how folks have worked that out, but there are aftermarket sensors that mount and read from the harmonic balancer. If you're doing the conversion on a 3.4, the crankshaft sensor port is already in the trunk side of the block.
Are the crankshaft sensors for the 2.8 still being made? Linky? Thank you!
I'm not sure I would install the knock sensor in the intake manifold.
I purchased a copy of "SAE Technical Paper 900488 Combustion Knock Sensing: Sensor Selection and Application Issues".
From what the authors say, knock sensor location can be quite tricky; moving the sensor from one spot to another can change the results a lot.
So I would suggest to freeload off GM's expertise, and copy what worked for them: use same the threaded hole in the side of the block where they installed knock sensors in later cars.
I went through the exercise of trying to get a crank trigger for my Fiero engine... I decided that the easiest route was to grab a later model crank + block... but in my case, it was a no-brainer, as a fellow Fiero club member gave me these parts for free!
Agree 100%, once serious knock (detonation) develops it doesn't take long before your engine blows. The challenge though is to get rid of the phantom knocks so that the engine makes optimum power. Don't know what knock sensor would do this but the idea of mounting on an extended tube is appealing. The 3.4L engine can be particularly noisy and mine runs the 85 ECM with the feature flag turned on, with the ESC (interface) module and knock sensor. It has forged pistons that also add to the phantom knock and its been an ongoing problem since the engine was built.
So how do you tell the difference between real knock and phantom knock, if you can't trust the sensor?
So how do you tell the difference between real knock and phantom knock, if you can't trust the sensor?
Your ears?
A scan tells you if the sensor is feeding info to the ECM that would retard the timing. Say if you get knock readings at idle (the timing retards) , you know they are phantom or a t steady state cruise conditions. If the initlal timing is set right, there should be no timing retard..
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
