I'm doing a turbo project with my V6 Fiero, and I'm not too sure if the stock HEI is up to the task, especially at high RPM.
I'm also planning a water/methanol injection system, which may drown the cylinders in water (not sure how much water I want to add... setup to be non-intercooled).
So should I leave my HEI stock?
Will an ignition box make silk from a sow's ear?
Or, should I jump straight to coil-packs?
I do find that the distributor is fitting for a car from the era of mullets, so I would prefer not to change it.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-12-2017).]
I ran an MSD ignition box on an 86 SE with a 2.8 L V6 and a four speed. I could not tell any real performance difference and took it back off when it failed after two months. I am running a stock ignition package on a turbo 3.4 engine with a five speed and it appears to handle it well.
Nelson
[This message has been edited by hnthomps (edited 09-12-2017).]
The MSD units used to fail because they soldered the big transistor between the housing and the PC board. And vibration would make them crack. Racers would put two on a plate with a lever switch to quickly recover when one would fail. One possible plus on some of the capacitive discharge units (they do not all have this) is the multi-pulse at low RPMs. It can help with cold start. But to do it right, one would have to plan out the plug tip temperature and such. I know that you are aiming for your 6 banger, but as an example the 2.5L does not like switching plugs from stock types. makes one wonder if different engines require or prefer certain plug temperatures and spark currents. That exhausts what I know about it.
I had an MSD on my stock Fiero (V6) and it caused me some problems. Every now and then it would misfire. The unit functioned perfectly and I was told it was leaning out the engine. MSD said this and told me to increase fuel pressure.
Unless you are doing something high performance, very high, than the stock ignition will do just fine.
For your turbo project start with low boost (up to 6 psi) and get it running right before adding all the other things.
Meth/water is not the best way to go and you certainly do not want to "drown" the engine with water. Hydrolock!!
I know intercooler setups are hard on the Fiero, but there have been some creative solutions. They are better than Meth/water injection and less troublesome.
If you are running a stock Fiero V6 than 6psi is about the limit. You go higher, and I know someone will say they run twelve easily, you'll need more than some kind of intercooling. The stock V6 can only handle so much.
Wow, it seems quite unaminous that the reliability record of these MSD boxes is poor. I guess I better stay far away from them...
So I guess I'll try the HEI. I'll just need to make sure to reserve a spot to install the coil-packs, if the HEI doesn't work out.
I am all-in with the water/meth non-intercooled game though. I do want a unique setup, so if I can make it work where others have failed, it will be a special ride.
Shooting for 15 psi or so, so if the water/meth dies, it will probably result in catastrophic engine failure. The engine will be dependent on the water flow for its survival. I got a freshly rebuilt 7.4:1 compression 3.2 L.
Obviously at first, I will have low boost, but I still need to plan ahead. Now, I'm at the stage of bolting the lower intake manifold to the engine, so now is the time to machine the lower intake manifold to accept the water/meth injection nozzles... not when it's installed in the car.
Note that many put ignition boxes in the Fiero trunk. (They put sound amps in them and front spare tire well too.) Problem is trunk and front compartment gets hotter then most people think and fries the box/amp because boxes need cool air to remove heat generated by them. Is like Fiero ECM gets fried from insulation in the console... Can't get cooled and crack solder joints, fries "transistors," etc. (See my Cave, ECM Heat)
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Good Point Ogre. I mounted my 3800 PCM behind the seat. I tried to mount it in the stock location but "Wow" did it get hot there. You are also contending with the engine firewall. Even so on a hot day inside the cab it can easily get to 100 degree F sitting still.
I gutted my center console insulation when I installed my MS2 ECU in the factory location. I also added an always-on computer fan blowing air through the ECU case. Without the fan, I had issues.
Does anyone know how hot the trunk gets?
Subjectively, I know that the trunk is not good for long drives with cold beer...
I think now they install them under the dash and since most cars run with A/C they survive best there.
Didn't GM also install them inside the airbox? Sounds ridiculous, but they would stay cool there.
Fortunate for me, and some others, we live in the north. Not too many hot days up here, but those that live deep in the south heat can be a real issue.
The problem with the rear trunk is the muffler is right there. You cant carry groceries back there too long because of that. It was one of the initial complaints about the Fiero.
I always run an MSD when I can. In your case if you use Water Meth Injection just close the gap in your plugs and you'll be ok. I had a Turbo Dodge on Water Injection at 50PSI of boost and had to run .012 plug gap to keep the motor happy and it paid off. That's the key, very narrow spark plug gap and you wont have any issues. I have one now and I have never had problem with it
Rei
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 09-23-2017).]
Nothing noticeable. In most cases it idles better. But how much gap you need will be dependent on the amount and rate of the water meth injection. If the engine starts to hesitate or miss under acceleration and during the WM injection close the gap and if cures it leave the gap there. If it doesn't cure it keep closing the gap until it does. If it doesnt that means the amount of water injection is too much, just back it down some.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: I gutted my center console insulation when I installed my MS2 ECU in the factory location. I also added an always-on computer fan blowing air through the ECU case. Without the fan, I had issues.
Does anyone know how hot the trunk gets?
Subjectively, I know that the trunk is not good for long drives with cold beer...
Fan shouldn't be needed when insulation is removed. Enough Air can flow under the console and out thru vents. But... If ECM is old, could be having problems and fan help but still is "dead" and should be replace. If/when cables etc thru firewall fails to seal... You can have hot air from engine getting thru. GM had TBS because many had problems. Worse when sun roof open and windows close because can act like vacuum cleaner and pull hot air from engine thru cable holes. If Cable seals leak can also have CO and other fumes getting thru to cabin.
Hot trunk and front will have weather that day and engine, exhaust and cooling parts heating. So if you test one day and see 110° max, may not be true next day week etc. (Testing will need long lead thermocouple or thermistor to read temp w/ trunk closed.) Then add While they are not total air sealed... Won't move enough air to cool hots parts like amps etc and hots parts get hotter and hotter. More so when amps etc are pushing out max power. Plus heat rises and often making top of trunk hotter anytime trunk is close. Many put MSD etc in top section on front trunk wall of Fiero...
Is not only ECM MSD etc Case gets hots... MOSFETs and others inside are often hotter then case. Example: ECM Case = 150°F then MOSFET themselves are 160-180°F and more depending exact design and MOSFET mounting method. I'm not talking about MOSFET case temp but junction/chip temp the chip in them. Actual Chips are always hotter because time to move heat from chip to whatever try to heatsink them.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 09-24-2017).]
I'm doing a turbo project with my V6 Fiero, and I'm not too sure if the stock HEI is up to the task, especially at high RPM.
I'm also planning a water/methanol injection system, which may drown the cylinders in water (not sure how much water I want to add... setup to be non-intercooled).
So should I leave my HEI stock?
Will an ignition box make silk from a sow's ear?
Or, should I jump straight to coil-packs?
I do find that the distributor is fitting for a car from the era of mullets, so I would prefer not to change it.
Don't waste your money. The stock system is very powerful and I doubt you'll exceed its capacity which would take somewhere in the area of a combination of high compression, high boost and/or high rpm.
I had a lot of trouble with the stock ignition system that took more than a year to sort out.
First understand that no matter what ignition coil you use, it will only generate as much voltage as is required to jump the gap until its limit is reached so performance coils do not = better spark.
When you experience misfires under boost in a new build, start closing the plug gap first after checking everything over. I had to go as low as .015-.020.
If you drown out spark with water/meth injection you're simply injecting too much, or too early, or both. I did that.
As the compression ratio and/or boost increases, the resistance in the spark gap increases. Run either high enough and you may have an ignition problem.
You need excellent grounds. Short, thick wires to the ignition electronics are your friend, as well as heat control. I hot wired my ignition system directly to the battery and used the OE coil power wire to control the relay that powered the circuit. You would be amazed at the voltage drop through the harness to the coil.
AC Delco ignition parts are top notch. Having tried MSD and Accel performance coils, I can say personally that I would choose a junk yard OE coil/module over a new aftermarket brand any day and the same goes for the spark plug wires. Just before I finally got to the bottom of the ignition problems under boost, I had MSD plug wires on the car and an intermittent misfire at low boost that wore me out. When I replaced them with a set of stock BOSCH wires for one of the early Bonneville SC cars, all ignition problems resolved and I had no more problems.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 09-24-2017).]
Originally posted by Joseph Upson: AC Delco ignition parts are top notch. Having tried MSD and Accel performance coils, I can say personally that I would choose a junk yard OE coil/module over a new aftermarket brand any day and the same goes for the spark plug wires. Just before I finally got to the bottom of the ignition problems under boost, I had MSD plug wires on the car and an intermittent misfire at low boost that wore me out. When I replaced them with a set of stock BOSCH wires for one of the early Bonneville SC cars, all ignition problems resolved and I had no more problems.
Big reason why Many Professional Race Teams use Magnecor plug wires that never sponsor anyone.
Many to Most MSD Accell and other brands of Coils Plugs etc are garbage but still sells to people w/ no clue.
ACDelco parts = GM parts is No Longer True and been so for nearly 20 years. GM ACDelco Brand get high premium markup doing nothing. Worse Often only have 30-90 day warranty. Nearly all ACDelco parts are made by Contractors... Example: Ignition and sensors often Standard or Wells. ACDelco is to cars is same as Sears Kenmore is to appliances. (Most Kenmore items are made by Whirlpool etc.) GM spinoff all Parts divisions to Delphi. Delphi went Bankrupt and many lines sold to other Companies.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joseph Upson: AC Delco ignition parts are top notch. Having tried MSD and Accel performance coils, I can say personally that I would choose a junk yard OE coil/module over a new aftermarket brand any day and the same goes for the spark plug wires. Just before I finally got to the bottom of the ignition problems under boost, I had MSD plug wires on the car and an intermittent misfire at low boost that wore me out. When I replaced them with a set of stock BOSCH wires for one of the early Bonneville SC cars, all ignition problems resolved and I had no more problems.
Big reason why Many Professional Race Teams use Magnecor plug wires that never sponsor anyone.
Many to Most MSD Accell and other brands of Coils Plugs etc are garbage but still sells to people w/ no clue.
ACDelco parts = GM parts is No Longer True and been so for nearly 20 years. GM ACDelco Brand get high premium markup doing nothing. Worse Often only have 30-90 day warranty. Nearly all ACDelco parts are made by Contractors... Example: Ignition and sensors often Standard or Wells. ACDelco is to cars is same as Sears Kenmore is to appliances. (Most Kenmore items are made by Whirlpool etc.) GM spinoff all Parts divisions to Delphi. Delphi went Bankrupt and many lines sold to other Companies.[/QUOTE]
I can't argue that point, however, there is still a vehicle warranty period that may just as well work in our favor as after-cost-expenses must be kept to a minimum. More importantly, the parts being dealt with here are older parts more likely to have seen better production practices than those after 2008 when finances took a dive and more stuff started coming out of China which is only bad where quality control suffered.
I wouldn't choose a WELLS product knowingly with an alternative due to past experience. I'd take a Standard Motor Products part without hesitation as many of their parts are OE in SMP packaging and that's directly from an SMP rep. I'm just speaking from my years of experience where the original equipment parts have served me dependably well, compared to aftermarket coupled with magical claims.
I used Accel SuperStock resistance-type wires for 7 years in my previous Fiero. I had no problems, so I think I'll re-use them in my new build.
I won't use/buy pre-made spark plug wires, because the lengths will be wrong. For a proper, neat appearance, I feel it is necessary to cut the wires to length, and crimp on my own ends. So, I may consider Magnecor next time. I just hope that my crimping tool works as well for the Magnecor crimps as well as it worked for the Accel crimps. Or maybe all HEI crimps are the same?
As far as "too much" water, I think I will try a 0.4 water/fuel mass ratio at full load. So I don't know if that will cause misfires. I will be using PWM solenoids (ECU-controlled) to control the water/meth flow, so I won't be watering the engine at low boost/RPM any more than at high boost/RPM, as with a plain on/off setup.
I'll be sure to keep the ignition coil and its ignitor in the air blast of the trunk blower fan.
I used Accel SuperStock resistance-type wires for 7 years in my previous Fiero. I had no problems, so I think I'll re-use them in my new build.
I won't use/buy pre-made spark plug wires, because the lengths will be wrong. For a proper, neat appearance, I feel it is necessary to cut the wires to length, and crimp on my own ends. So, I may consider Magnecor next time. I just hope that my crimping tool works as well for the Magnecor crimps as well as it worked for the Accel crimps. Or maybe all HEI crimps are the same?
As far as "too much" water, I think I will try a 0.4 water/fuel mass ratio at full load. So I don't know if that will cause misfires. I will be using PWM solenoids (ECU-controlled) to control the water/meth flow, so I won't be watering the engine at low boost/RPM any more than at high boost/RPM, as with a plain on/off setup.
I'll be sure to keep the ignition coil and its ignitor in the air blast of the trunk blower fan.
I liked the PWM controller for water/meth injection but reverted back to the on/off switch when mine failed. The more you have going on in the middle, the riskier it gets. If you tune for the highest injection point you can attain, I'm not sure the variable module will offer a lot at the top as you can use spark advance to help accommodate the constant volume flow. I believe I eventually settled on 10 psi. You can feel the smoothing effect the water/meth has on the engine no doubt as a result of the influence on combustion.
PWM in my setup will just be a software function. Rather than the ECU simply doing on/off control of its output MOSFET, it will be PWM-ing said MOSFET.
So I don't forsee any additional hardware or potential points of failure.
I'm looking at the Clippard Mouse series of solenoid valves, and they claim 1 000 000 000+ cycle life.
PWM will indeed shorten the lifetime of the valve(s), because it's opening and closing many more times in its lifetime than with on/off control.
That said, at 6500 RPM, with one injection per two crankshaft revolutions, it would take a little over 5000 hours of running time to use up the billion claimed cycles... so I think I'm good.
I have a mixed opinion about MSD multispark CD ignition boxes. At low RPMs you will get multiple sparks but above 3000 RPM you get a single spark It can be claimed that multiple sparks are good for better mileage but I am not so sure. IMO today's high energy ignitions are fine the way they are.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
