Folks , I know that this subject is as old as Methuslela and it seems that '88 wheel bearings/hub assemblies are crappy at best . How much better the "84 - '*& bearings are up to discussion but probably not much better .
I have both an '86SE and an'86GT . That being said , while surfing the internet about Fiero stuff I came across 2 websites for wheel bearing info '86 models . Lo and behold I came across a supplier/distributor called Carid.com selling Joes Racing , who BTWs is still around and manufactures stuff for other types of racing , 1986 wheel bearings and " hub assemblies " .
Has anyone come across this before ? Has anyone studied it to see if the wheel bearing hubs would fit on an '86 or maybe an '88 ??? Or would it take too much of a modification to work on an '86 street Fiero ? Maybe race applications ?
I'm looking for a better front bearing/rear hub bearing that will last without grenading itself before an autocross event is 1/2 way done . Timken bearings/hub assemblies no made in China may be my ony choice .
Any opinions would be appreciated. No flaming please .
84-88 Rear Hub likely won't last for racing. Just how they're made and aftermarket is not much better... Most New ones have two sets of rollers but still have problems. See PFF Rear Wheel Bearings wont hold up?! Just look at prices. Is same as other outlets and ignoring all sold thru Ebay and Amazon that have very cheap knockoffs.
I bought the bad one that died +15 years ago before everything move to china and box said made in USA. Only last a few months. Other one still on the car all this time.
84-87 spindle takes small bearing is part of why they fail for racing too. They fail for street use but often because someone installs them wrong and preloads or is way loose. See my Cave, Front Bearings
"joes" hub is racing only and likely won't fit stock Fiero.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Why is it that the '88 models get all the interest and articles when it pertains to the brakes , wheel bearings/hub assemblies and suspension work ? Sure maybe the 88 model is a slightly better in those area than the 84 - 87 but then they are the ones with the worse record when it comes to the wheel bearings/hub assembly .
Why are the 84 - 87 models being basically ignored in these areas ? We're not talking about Formula 1 engineering here where the World Championship is at stake here . 84 - 87 ( 86 in particular ) need the love and attention too .
The 84-87s have always had more options for brakes and suspension parts than the 88s. They were the first style and have the vast majority of the market.
Then what are my options for wheel bearings/rear hub bearing assembly ? Considering the GrandAm brake option . Would some how fabricating a cooling ducting to both front and rear bearings have any noticeable affect on wheel bearing lives or is it a waste of time ? Any improvement on the bearing issues for the 86-87 models that I don't know of ?
Over the years I've put close 500K miles on Fieros, alot of them on pre-88's, driven hard.
Never had wheel bearing failures.
The bearing preload is critical to bearing life. Follow the torque specs on the rear axle nut and the front wheel bearing preload procedure in the FSM. The front bearing procedure takes some practice to get right, do it a few times on each side to get the "feel".....
Corvair front hub upgrade gets you larger bearings (and a different wheel pattern). Street Dreams used to sell a dropped front knuckle that was available with a larger spindle, larger bearings, and aluminum hubs with larger bearings. Arraut motorsports sells dropped from knuckles that use the rear wheel bearing.
For the rear you can swap to the HD uprights from the Pontiac 6000 and use the much larger rear wheel bearing, or so some slight machining and use the S10 wheel bearing.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-09-2017).]
Originally posted by GTPatrick: Then what are my options for wheel bearings/rear hub bearing assembly ?
Isn't one that's PnP to race. 88 Front Hubs have same problem for racing. Is why RD tried making a better 88 FH but failed for races. If fact Most to All Parts Warranties are Voided for Race and Commercial uses.
quote
Considering the GrandAm brake option . Would some how fabricating a cooling ducting to both front and rear bearings have any noticeable affect on wheel bearing lives or is it a waste of time ? Any improvement on the bearing issues for the 86-87 models that I don't know of ?
GA "upgrade" is a joke push by TFS and other making money following Internet directions. The original upgrade story was for a trailer queen race car and like others site is long gone. Only one now is what was done to copy the same "upgrade."
Just ignore that for right now... Because Better Brakes even from real experts put more load and stress on any hub. More so w/ sticky and/or wide tires. If you have wheel bearing problems now then often will get worse w/ better brakes and tires for racing.
Can you add cooling ducts, mod rotor "stone" shield, etc, to cool brakes? Yes. Many ways to do that but if you drive on the street then water and worse could be a problem. Example: Just water/snow can hydroplane the pads for anything w/ disk brakes including Amtrak and other passenger trains as huge brakes they have. So you need to think the mod w/ this in mind... If you duct for a race then look for a way to stop road crap going thru them on the street.
Now If you loose brakes during autoX then You may think is a Heat issue but likely have PB booster Starving for Vacuum. All Vacuum Boosters need >17" Hg vacuum from the engine to pump drown. Booster is also a little reserve tank thanks to vac valve on them but AutoX uses brakes and often high engine RPM and use up all vacuum. Note to that 84-86 Fiero have smaller Vacuum Lines (only 3/8") to the booster making harder to pump down, more so for racing. 87-88 use 1/2 vac line and no filter. (See my Cave, Brake Service booster and check valve.) The answer is use a vacuum tank to add vacuum storage so when engine doesn't generate vacuum the Booster won't run out. Summit and others has them. (They make vacuum pumps too for this and other situations like Engine w/ "power" cam often have same problem and need a aux tank or a vac pump to use vacuum power items.)
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-10-2017).]
On rear hubs. The Moog/National rear hubs for the '84-'87s available at Rock Auto have worked nice for us. Have put on and driven 12,000mi on them with no issues, including some rather spirited driving (Thanks Georgia Fieros RFTHs and Capitol City Fieros cruises). Truely believe what makes the difference with these low cost hubs is proper installation and torquing. If I remember correct, the torque for the hub nut is 200 ft lbs., per factory service manual. I borrowed a 250# torque wrench to get the job done. Another thing I did was to hand pack a little more grease into the hub prior to install. You can't get much more in there, but every little it helps. Lastly a small amount of anti-seize on the hub spline.
On the front wheel bearings. Have had no troubles with the standard Timken replacement bearings for the '84-'87s in two cars. Just grease well and torque the nut properly. Also did the seals at the same time. Rechecked the torque and play after a month of use. Currently used 30,000mi so far between the two cars, no issues and again some rather spririted driving.
Really believe most problems with replacement bearings come from the install. True the Fiero setup is not for all out track racing, but for occasional hard driving the bearings above are fine.
I wonder if the grease use is the problem.. for much of the sealed hub issues.. I'd love to know if the stuff put in a Camaro or vette hub is the same as the run of the mill vehicles hub.. As the Fiero is not all that heavy . I had to move up to better grease in my g body as The run of the mill stuff was not good enough for high speed and side loading.. and over working the SS's oem brakes didn't help matters , there is a limit to the run of the mill high temp bearing grease. You'd not use run of the mill oil in an engine you are going to spray happy gas on and hope the oil film will withstand that pressure loading, yet in a sealed bearing, everyone does.. Heck even the re packable bearing most don't think twice about the grease only that it is axle bearing grease.. I also wonder how many have retorqued the axle nut when a new bearing was installed and then rechecked it after a few driving cycles.. and used a new nut. or at least re-ovalled the old one or staked it... on the drive axles.. As the weight loading on this car and the tire contact patch isn't that much of a load
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-10-2017).]
True. Ever notice how the OE manufactures limit the amount of grease on a part, that stuff is expensive. Same probably goes for the aftermarket suppliers. Why put any more in then absolutely required to get through the warranty period, or past the purchasers memory of how pleasant it was crawling around on the floor replacing that rear hub. Most manufacturers want to make the least expensive best part, however we're the ones that take the hit when they , the manufactures, fail.
I doubt any have rechecked the rear hub nut torque after the initial install. If installed as per the manual or packaged instructions at 200ft lbs there's a slim chance it's coming loose. And the same instructions tell you not to reuse the nut in any form. I'll recheck the front bearings, not the rear. 200ft lbs is allot in a street car application. Sure there are nuts out there in other applications that are torqued to 600-800 ft lbs with crush washers and all, more often than not they are not rechecked either.
Thanks for Cliff and the platform of this forum giving us the opportunity to sort aftermarket parts that work and those that don't. Pass the grease please!
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 08-10-2017).]
Grease: Yes you can get "better" grease but greases are made for the application and wrong "best" ones can fail for application use for. Example: You could find Wheel Bearing Grease and Same but says Made for Disk Brakes. Many w/o that statement won't hold up to heat generated by disk brakes. I have a very old can of WBG that I won't use on a Fiero and most cars now. You shouldn't use most greases w/o saying made for this use. Do Not try to guess from reading catalog spec's. If grease Maker can't/won't say for use for car wheel bearing then safer to treat the answer is No. Do Not believe vendors saying will work.
Worse, Many believe more grease used the better.
Many bearing grease are like brake grease and hardly move even when hot. Meaning Grease push out of any bearing after install won't migrate back to lube the bearing. At best, The extra grease acts as a dirt shield to prevent that getting to the bearings.
Many DIY and Pro's still fill the part full of grease. When hot the grease will expand and can leak or push out many types of seals and caps. Leaking wheel bearing grease can contaminate the brakes. Very bad news when that happens. Example: Many fill the Void between bearings and/or cap for front wheel bearing for Fiero and others w/ same design. Does nothing but create problems. Void space and cap get only a thin coat of grease to prevent rust.
Axle Nuts: While you can check the nut for front 84-87 Fiero etc, You Never retorque the axle nuts for sealed hub assembles. Leave them alone. Note that Torque Valve is for Clean Dry Threads. If you got grease/oil on the axle nut threads and torque to 200ft/lb then you are way over torqued and cause hub and/or axle failures anytime after. Over torqued can crush the hub and stretch the axle. Stretch axle in the hub area can break w/o warning and hub very soon fail too.
Grease: Yes you can get "better" grease but greases are made for the application and wrong "best" ones can fail for application use for. Example: You could find Wheel Bearing Grease and Same but says Made for Disk Brakes. Many w/o that statement won't hold up to heat generated by disk brakes. I have a very old can of WBG that I won't use on a Fiero and most cars now. You shouldn't use most greases w/o saying made for this use. Do Not try to guess from reading catalog spec's. If grease Maker can't/won't say for use for car wheel bearing then safer to treat the answer is No. Do Not believe vendors saying will work.
Worse, Many believe more grease used the better.
Many bearing grease are like brake grease and hardly move even when hot. Meaning Grease push out of any bearing after install won't migrate back to lube the bearing. At best, The extra grease acts as a dirt shield to prevent that getting to the bearings.
Many DIY and Pro's still fill the part full of grease. When hot the grease will expand and can leak or push out many types of seals and caps. Leaking wheel bearing grease can contaminate the brakes. Very bad news when that happens. Example: Many fill the Void between bearings and/or cap for front wheel bearing for Fiero and others w/ same design. Does nothing but create problems. Void space and cap get only a thin coat of grease to prevent rust.
Axle Nuts: While you can check the nut for front 84-87 Fiero etc, You Never retorque the axle nuts for sealed hub assembles. Leave them alone. Note that Torque Valve is for Clean Dry Threads. If you got grease/oil on the axle nut threads and torque to 200ft/lb then you are way over torqued and cause hub and/or axle failures anytime after. Over torqued can crush the hub and stretch the axle. Stretch axle in the hub area can break w/o warning and hub very soon fail too.
Thanks for the autotech class reply.. Now the hubs made for our car are not built thinking the vehicle will be going at a high rate of speed for long , unlike one made for a vette or todays Camaro/mustang that are expected to be driven like that allot.. not a hub for a 100hp fwd car or the platform that they took and stuffed that mess into the rear.. It isn't thought of as a car you sling into corners hard for a few minutes at a time under hard braking and engine loading.. So the run of the mill grease will work just fine, were it would not in a hub for say the vette or Camaro/mustang/ charger/etc.. with a better chance of being driven hard ALLOT.. and or having a bunch more weight loading and driven hard.. Has anyone that drives a fiero hard on an auto x course ever put a temp gun on the hub to see just how hot it is getting?? and how much hotter it is than under normal driving..? I'll bet the difference is huge and the grease used isn't up to that type use.. as 99.99% of the fieros will never be driven like that, so no need to spend the money putting grease for a performance use/loading into the units.. My gut, from having this type issue in other platforms is the grease used isn't up to that loading and heat build up and heat soak after a run.. not that the part it self is "THE"problem. sure it is part of it as it was never ment to be subjected to any of this loading , The hub used in a citation front is torqued to 185, but when that whole works is stuffed in the back of a fiero the nut goes to 200 ft lb torque spec.. The Pontiac 6000 in 82 was 225ft lb then in 83 backed down to 185 ft lb.. Could the 15 ft lb difference be "part" of this along with grease used in the parts made for a mundane a to b car.. remember the basic transport sold in much bigger numbers than the platform that parts binned use of the same gear..
Curious what the grease spec is for the Camaro/Vette front hubs/bearings? Probably is close to, or, the grease most of use use when we do our own bearings on the Fiero. Not sure what the shops or factory might be using. I use synthetic for all it's worth, might be over kill. Still no problems. The rear hubs I've installed were prepacked, I just added what I could, really not much.
If you've ever driven "The Dragon" you most likely would compare it to a autocross event on steroids. Lots of turns (318) in 11 miles and if lite traffic done at a "spirited pace". I have yet to see or hear of anyone that maintains their Fiero, 84-88, having any bearing troubles there. Many of those good folks have driven the route numerous times over the years, some many times each year. They also do similar routes before and after the Dragon (ex. Cherohola Skyway or War Woman Rd.) to further test their bearings/hubs. Only an observation on my part. Fierofool would have the tally of any Fiero bearing failures during the RFTHs events. Someone here may have also checked bearing temps, if it really matters, on some of those RFTHs cars. It truely is a good test of bearings, brakes, steering and all the other suspension parts.
Many thanks to the Georgia Fiero Club for the RFTHs event, now going on their 22nd year.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 08-11-2017).]
Thanks, Kevin. My 87 is on the original rear hubs at 165K miles. In the 17 years I've owned it, I've probably put more than 5000 miles of the equivalent of road course racing on it. You've been behind me and know that we push the limits. In 1 year, I did The Dragon 19 times during scouting and the RFTH event.
I have replaced the front bearings once that I remember and am about to replace them again due to a random loud pop at low speed. I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it's just precautionary. Could be a hub or cv joint, too.
I have always used bearing grease with fiber whenever the bearings were installed or repacked.
I'll be sending you a pm later today. I have a question.
Lookong forward to seeing you next month at RFTH #22.
Great to hear from you and congrats on your your 22nd RFTHs event. Probably the best one day open road course event in our Fiero world for those that enjoy the curvy and challenging roads. Definitely not for the weak drivers, though you also do a nice side cruise for those that like to drive a little easier. You guys do a great job.
No doubt you have fully tested the OEM bearings and hubs. Lots of good experience to pass on to the forum! I believe my replacement was due to a side load being put on the hub by the previous owner. It started making noise in turns. Sadly it was an OEM hub with only about 40,000 mi on the car. Anyway I replaced both hubs to be safe.
PM sent.
On the rear hubs. I installed a pair of the Moog/ National # 513011 ( on the hub) and S-513011K ( on the box) hubs from Rock Auto like 3 years ago when they were on sale.They worked perfect.
When I installed the Moog hubs I put in the grease seal that came with the hub, looks like a front bearing seal.. Then I packed the recess between the hub center race and outer mount on the inside of the hub, facing the axle. I also put some extra grease inside the seal as it faces the hub. Not allot of grease overall.Then installed the hub and bolted to the knuckle. I felt this would keep water out of the void between the interior of the hub and seal, and excess grease there would migrate into the hub it self and maybe hit the bearings. There is an orange seal, looks like an o-ring, between the hub center race and outer mounting surface. True the grease would have to get past that o-ring to get into the bearing area. I thought what I did would help over doing nothing there and hoping water and dust would stay out of the area. I suppose you could pull the orange o-ring and get more grease in there, but that might be risky when it comes time to reseat the o-ring. I did use Valvoline syn. grease (black).
As you may have noticed. The only other way to get grease actually into the heart of the bearing/hub would be to dismantle the hub. Not fun. And again risk getting it back together properly. The outer side of the hub, facing the tire is for the most part water proof. The worst area I saw was that void between the seal and the orange o-ring seal area. A great place for condensation, dirt and whatever. I really think most problems are bad installs by shops and hack mechanics. Only my limited experience talking.
Hope this helps. Thanks from all of us up here for organizing the event. Keep up the great work!! Many don't know what they are missing.
Kevin Capitol City Fieros (a hard driving, open road course, track, touring, Fiero Club)
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 08-11-2017).]
Sorry I can't speak for 88 owners. I have not owned an 88. However. I currently have about 140,000 miles on the original rear bearings on my 87. With a 3800 for about the last 20,000. I replaced the front bearings when I got the car. They did have some "blueing" but not pitted. I repack them when I do the front pads. A few notes. Some of this comes from a National bearing class that I had went to about 3 decades ago. Unless you know what grease is in a bearing (brand/type) don't add too it unless you can completely clean out what is in it. Different greases do not work well together. On packable bearings, I have seen where some have not cleaned all the old grease and it mixed with the new grease, only to thin out like oil and ooze out of the dust cap. The grease does not migrate. The only reason to fill the void between the bearings is to take up space to reduce moisture. Extra grease in the cap does not help at all. After installing new races, you tighten (cram down) too seat the races. Then back off and snug up by hand. If you are unsure about how much, get an inch pound torque wrench. The bearings need that little bit of room. They will fail quickly by over tightening. So I would not add any grease to prepacked units unless I can be sure I am using the same grease. I have been working in shops since 1980. It used to be second nature to repack bearings. I have found that, this is not the case any more. I have had to re do a good number of bearings due to improper service practices.
One thing i would add to new front bearing install procedures. Keep the hub rotating as you tighten the spindle nut. If stationary, you can cause the roller bearings to make an impression in the races if you over tighten.
Originally posted by E.Furgal: Thanks for the autotech class reply.. Now the hubs made for our car are not built thinking the vehicle will be going at a high rate of speed for long , unlike one made for a vette or todays Camaro/mustang that are expected to be driven like that allot.. not a hub for a 100hp fwd car or the platform that they took and stuffed that mess into the rear.. It isn't thought of as a car you sling into corners hard for a few minutes at a time under hard braking and engine loading.. So the run of the mill grease will work just fine, were it would not in a hub for say the vette or Camaro/mustang/ charger/etc.. with a better chance of being driven hard ALLOT.. and or having a bunch more weight loading and driven hard.. Has anyone that drives a fiero hard on an auto x course ever put a temp gun on the hub to see just how hot it is getting?? and how much hotter it is than under normal driving..? I'll bet the difference is huge and the grease used isn't up to that type use.. as 99.99% of the fieros will never be driven like that, so no need to spend the money putting grease for a performance use/loading into the units.. My gut, from having this type issue in other platforms is the grease used isn't up to that loading and heat build up and heat soak after a run.. not that the part it self is "THE"problem. sure it is part of it as it was never ment to be subjected to any of this loading , The hub used in a citation front is torqued to 185, but when that whole works is stuffed in the back of a fiero the nut goes to 200 ft lb torque spec.. The Pontiac 6000 in 82 was 225ft lb then in 83 backed down to 185 ft lb.. Could the 15 ft lb difference be "part" of this along with grease used in the parts made for a mundane a to b car.. remember the basic transport sold in much bigger numbers than the platform that parts binned use of the same gear..
So you know more then Timken GM and others that spend Millions of $ each year just to design bearing and hubs?
"So the run of the mill grease will work just fine, were it would not in a hub for say the vette or Camaro/mustang/ charger/etc.. with a better chance of being driven hard ALLOT.. and or having a bunch more weight loading and driven hard.." News Flash. GM Ford etc Do Not Care if you car dies while racing etc because Dealers can and do Void the Warranty for cars showing any Abuse. You might get away for Warranty Repair first time but Dealers can call BS next time the car breaks.
You think this hub problem affect "cheap cars?" RR trains cars Across the World use similar Sealed Axle Bearings and gets wreck by same things as car and truck wheel bearings including drive thru "water" that's higher then axle. TimkenRail Refurbishment - YouTube @ 13:21 show major damage when bearing are dead and outer race grinding the inner. This is so common that RR have equipment on the tracks to monitor axle bearing heat as cars passes over them. NASCAR and other race org's have all kinds of bearing problems and very often replace most between races even when bearings are good.
GM or the Contractor they use and Aftermarket hubs very likely used 1 grease for most to all hubs a company makes. They use 1 type because they buy it in huge quantities and Don't want to change grease between batches of different PN. Hub PN can be use for 1-2 car lines or a hundred car lines. The roller bearing sets in them are used in Many PN covering Hundreds to Thousands of car lines.
Grease will not make a big difference for AutoX etc. You will need to completely redesign the bearings and other parts to handle high lateral G loads. That change can/will negatively affect the bearings lifetime for normal driving on the street.
Bearing problems are common but not the only way hubs can fail. Hub flange when tires bolted on can break off. Example: Wheel Bearing failure, not what I expected to see. AutoX or even just torquing tire lugs wrong can over stress the flange.
"Everyone" says torque Fiero nuts to 200ft/lb partly because easy to says and partly because they don't read Fiero SM or my cave. Worse, Haynes and others are often wrong but most believe them as gospel.
The Service Manual doesn't allow used nuts. Says "install washer and new hub nut and tighten to 250-285 Nm (183-208 lb.ft.)." Source: 87 SM, page 4D-2, Step 7 in Install list.
GM Factory SM for other lines have similar range of # for drive axle nuts. Not a single value that's push thru Haynes etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by E.Furgal: Thanks for the autotech class reply.. Now the hubs made for our car are not built thinking the vehicle will be going at a high rate of speed for long , unlike one made for a vette or todays Camaro/mustang that are expected to be driven like that allot.. not a hub for a 100hp fwd car or the platform that they took and stuffed that mess into the rear.. It isn't thought of as a car you sling into corners hard for a few minutes at a time under hard braking and engine loading.. So the run of the mill grease will work just fine, were it would not in a hub for say the vette or Camaro/mustang/ charger/etc.. with a better chance of being driven hard ALLOT.. and or having a bunch more weight loading and driven hard.. Has anyone that drives a fiero hard on an auto x course ever put a temp gun on the hub to see just how hot it is getting?? and how much hotter it is than under normal driving..? I'll bet the difference is huge and the grease used isn't up to that type use.. as 99.99% of the fieros will never be driven like that, so no need to spend the money putting grease for a performance use/loading into the units.. My gut, from having this type issue in other platforms is the grease used isn't up to that loading and heat build up and heat soak after a run.. not that the part it self is "THE"problem. sure it is part of it as it was never ment to be subjected to any of this loading , The hub used in a citation front is torqued to 185, but when that whole works is stuffed in the back of a fiero the nut goes to 200 ft lb torque spec.. The Pontiac 6000 in 82 was 225ft lb then in 83 backed down to 185 ft lb.. Could the 15 ft lb difference be "part" of this along with grease used in the parts made for a mundane a to b car.. remember the basic transport sold in much bigger numbers than the platform that parts binned use of the same gear..
So you know more then Timken GM and others that spend Millions of $ each year just to design bearing and hubs?
"So the run of the mill grease will work just fine, were it would not in a hub for say the vette or Camaro/mustang/ charger/etc.. with a better chance of being driven hard ALLOT.. and or having a bunch more weight loading and driven hard.." News Flash. GM Ford etc Do Not Care if you car dies while racing etc because Dealers can and do Void the Warranty for cars showing any Abuse. You might get away for Warranty Repair first time but Dealers can call BS next time the car breaks.
You think this hub problem affect "cheap cars?" RR trains cars Across the World use similar Sealed Axle Bearings and gets wreck by same things as car and truck wheel bearings including drive thru "water" that's higher then axle. TimkenRail Refurbishment - YouTube @ 13:21 show major damage when bearing are dead and outer race grinding the inner. This is so common that RR have equipment on the tracks to monitor axle bearing heat as cars passes over them. NASCAR and other race org's have all kinds of bearing problems and very often replace most between races even when bearings are good.
GM or the Contractor they use and Aftermarket hubs very likely used 1 grease for most to all hubs a company makes. They use 1 type because they buy it in huge quantities and Don't want to change grease between batches of different PN. Hub PN can be use for 1-2 car lines or a hundred car lines. The roller bearing sets in them are used in Many PN covering Hundreds to Thousands of car lines.
Grease will not make a big difference for AutoX etc. You will need to completely redesign the bearings and other parts to handle high lateral G loads. That change can/will negatively affect the bearings lifetime for normal driving on the street.
Bearing problems are common but not the only way hubs can fail. Hub flange when tires bolted on can break off. Example: Wheel Bearing failure, not what I expected to see. AutoX or even just torquing tire lugs wrong can over stress the flange.
"Everyone" says torque Fiero nuts to 200ft/lb partly because easy to says and partly because they don't read Fiero SM or my cave. Worse, Haynes and others are often wrong but most believe them as gospel.
The Service Manual doesn't allow used nuts. Says "install washer and new hub nut and tighten to 250-285 Nm (183-208 lb.ft.)." Source: 87 SM, page 4D-2, Step 7 in Install list.
GM Factory SM for other lines have similar range of # for drive axle nuts. Not a single value that's push thru Haynes etc. [/QUOTE]
I know this.. my vehicles that I've had issue with this with the parts were never designed for the loading they are seeing in auto x type racing as it wasn't a thing back then and 2 the tires avail were not as sticky or as wide, had taller sidewall with give that didn't load the parts as hard.. I do know every vehicle I've had this issue with that I've changed grease used, has caused me to never have a failure again.. wonder why that is.. That is all I have to go on.. your mileage may vary, and 24 hour lemons is more demanding than any auto x course..
Your reply of if I think I know better than gm. well find me a nos g.m. hub?? and we will talk.. the aftermarket parts are not the same.. nor, is the use causing the failure that gm never thought these hubs would ever see.. Answer me this, why the pace cars not use the oem hubs?? hint side loading and the oem parts and grease not up to that loading and or speed and heat generated from it and braking..
But as always someone thinks those at gm or (fill in the blank) are the all knowing, if that was the case there be no failures, aye..
I know this gm and every business only puts in what is needed nothing more.. as doing so cost money.. You are not stupid you know this.. so cut the crap.. the parts on vehicles are built to spec, the spec of the use it "should" see.. Not from what they would list as abuse, as they did not sell it as a race car.. So the part is spec'ed for normal driving, with normal tires. Todays tires make the 80's slicks look bad.. the lack of sidewall give on the larger dia wheel packages, and wider footprint on these new tires.. gm didn't design these hubs for 17-18" rims and short side wall sticky 9-11" tread width tires.. but you come up with that b/s knowing more than gm. even gm would tell you they are not ment for this.. National bearing/moog are not going to build a better bearing/hub out of better materials for the 20 they might sell.. it'll have the same crap as the citation hub and every other a to b car..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-12-2017).]
Originally posted by E.Furgal: Answer me this, why the pace cars not use the oem hubs?? hint side loading and the oem parts and grease not up to that loading and or speed and heat generated from it and braking..
Which "pace cars?" "Fake" Indy's sold to public do not list different hubs in 22p. All 84-88 only list GM PN 07470002 hub. Aftermarket cat's are no different. So Show proof their different and not just a PN. Indy does have some minor changes and 85-86 have the too vs. base 84 Fiero. Many claim has Roller cams but can't find real data saying so. Recall replacement engines make this even harder because most are later engine w/ roller cams. Indy combination valves are same as 85-87 but brakes are not different then other 84.
Real Indy Pace Car? GM made that to run 1 race to promote Fiero. Not to run on the street and did not care if the car died very often. The money eaten to make the Real Indy Fiero is Advertising and often a write-off in taxes for Marketing. GM would fix everything 100 times and more and never cared because that car sold Fiero and Pontiac to the public to the tunes of Many Millions of $ just for that year.
I500 Pace Lap speed is only 70mph. @70 MPH the track won't cause most cars to see Lateral or Bank Turn G loads a lot more then driving on the street but Every Real Pace Cars must meet Race Org's Safety and others Specs. Most changes are made because GM and IRL do not want a Pace Car to have any problems. That is a death sentence to a Model even a Brand and delay the race costing Big Money to IRL et al, TV Networks, etc. Race org could Cancel GM contracts for future races cost GM Millions each year. GM had almost all PC for decades making Billions of $. (but yet 85 had Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais? Barf but sold many anyway. I believe ~ same time started pushing “This Is Not Your Father's Oldsmobile.”)
IOW Most to All Real PC are a "Race Car" with Minor to Major Changes vs. most everything sold to the public. So Doesn't matter if OE hubs are good enough or not. If Fiero Indy had real brake upgrade and other changes to the entire suspension that can require them to charge hubs. If they just change lug pattern or axles could require charging the hubs. Hubs can be same design and lube used but different axle spines/size etc. You saying their Better hubs but again you have no proof. Real Indy Fiero also have Super Duty 4cyl engine. Was a good thing because OE 84 dukes were made very cheap and have problems like weak blocks and connecting rods resulting in Recall NHTSA # 87V181000, GM # 84-C-15B, NON-COLLISION Engine Compartment Fires.
[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 08-12-2017).]
Whatever you say.. I'll go with what has made parts that used to fail and needed to be replaced a few times at one event to the way that we don't have any failure unless we hit something.. YMMV
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-12-2017).]
