Curious if anyone has tried this. If you have a good idea of how the lithium 18650 works, it could be a great low cost alternative to those expensive lead acid batteries.
I have a collection of laptop lithium batteries. They are great and often have lots of life in them.
Last time I priced Lithium batteries they were far more expensive than lead acid batteries but I can't tell you how many are needed. My wife purchased a mini power pack booster for me for my birthday for $39.00 on a Radio Shack clearance sale. That little booster pack is slightly bigger than my smartphone yet it will start my car with a dead battery. Point is technology is changing and one day if not now, there may be a way to use a small Lithium battery . My only concern would be how the small battery would react to the 105 amp charging system.
Yes you can but that battery is for a utility vehicle, generator, or lawn equipment. 35a hrs is not much and it has a $209 price tag. ------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-01-2017).]
Motor-cyclers are jumping on lithium batteries simply because they are so much lighter. In fact, some are building their own batteries, but yes you can purchase your own. The reason is weight savings and eventually they will replace the traditional lead-acid battery. They are just a better battery.
I was looking to build something for my bike. The typical lead acid battery for me only last two years.
Lithium batteries do charge and discharge differently. Each cell is fused because if not charged properly or discharged too quickly they can overheat. There is a condition called, thermal runaway. So lithiums have a Battery Management System (BMS) which monitors them both in charging and discharging. They even have temp sensors integrated to shut them down just in case. Pretty sophisticated!
There is no reason why they can not be adapted to a motorcycle or car.
The standard lithium battery is the 18650. I adapted some of my electronics around the house to this cell. They are great. I purchased a specific charger. They are small, powerful cells.
Often they are discarded from old laptops, power tools, and such before they are exhausted. So you can collect them and reuse them for projects. Tesla uses them in their cars!
Originally posted by RotrexFiero: Tesla uses them in their cars!
They use a s**t -ton of them, so much that they manufacture their own cells.
Obviously, if Tesla uses 18650 cells (quite a lot per car), then it's an idea that works.
The information on how to charge/use lithium cells should be readily available, considering that so many gadgets have them...
If you want a drop-in solution not requiring any engineering (bye-bye to using loose 18650 cells) you can buy a Porsche lithium battery. It's meant as a replacement for the lead-acid stuff, without changes to the car.
Heck, Summit Racing seems to carry some Li-ion batteries.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 06-01-2017).]
Motor-cyclers are jumping on lithium batteries simply because they are so much lighter. In fact, some are building their own batteries, but yes you can purchase your own. The reason is weight savings and eventually they will replace the traditional lead-acid battery. They are just a better battery.
I was looking to build something for my bike. The typical lead acid battery for me only last two years.
Lithium batteries do charge and discharge differently. Each cell is fused because if not charged properly or discharged too quickly they can overheat. There is a condition called, thermal runaway. So lithiums have a Battery Management System (BMS) which monitors them both in charging and discharging. They even have temp sensors integrated to shut them down just in case. Pretty sophisticated!
There is no reason why they can not be adapted to a motorcycle or car.
The standard lithium battery is the 18650. I adapted some of my electronics around the house to this cell. They are great. I purchased a specific charger. They are small, powerful cells.
Often they are discarded from old laptops, power tools, and such before they are exhausted. So you can collect them and reuse them for projects. Tesla uses them in their cars!
So my 2.0 cents, First, the motorcycle lithium batteries are available ready made. They are much smaller and have a foam pad to take up the extra space. They are more rugged than I expected.. since they maintain 80% charge over a year, they can winter without discharging to the danger point.. cannot tell you how many dead lead batteries I replaced in the spring. So then the big reason for Liion batteries over lead acid is 1/4 the weight, or 4x the charge density, depending on which way you look at it. That is huge.. lead acid project cars always had issues with extremely high tire weights, to the point of beefing up suspension. Both chemistries have very predictable charge/discharge profiles. But with liion, if you over or under charge a cell, you will likely destroy it. Non-recoverable. Next, there is a large choice for you to make. You can put the batteries in some serial/parallel format, depending on voltage (cars need at least 180 or more volts to be responsive) and current (liion batteries have a discharge peak limit.. you must match that with the motor draw). But, you can charge the whole string as a single cell. Eventually, sad cells will unbalance the string, and cause additional sad cells. One issue is that a cell that is used, or even cells from a different production runs, are going to be very prone to unbalancing. Once they unbalance, it becomes difficult to manage. Or you can build up a charge system that maintains balance at the cell level. This turns out to be unwieldly complex, and is many times the secret sauce to commercial products. Most do it yourself BMS (battery management system) are so dangerous that they are notorious for catching on fire. Remember, 200VDC can be a very dangerous and potent fire starter. There are also large format cells that you can get, so if you plan carefully, your series/parallel combinations are not so extreme. Something like.. http://www.electric-cars-ar...tteries-lithium.html Look toward the bottom of the page. And finally, you should read up on high voltage safety. A 200V DC pack is enough to completely (not partially or almost) kill you to the point of being dead. And if you go with AC motors, you will likely go into the 300+ voltage range.
One more thing. When a liion cell is fabricated, it begins to die. They have a specific calendar life, after which they will just be unusable. Products are getting better all the time, but all liion cells will die when their time is up. And the enemy of liion is heat. The hotter they get, the faster they expire. That is why your laptop, which cooks the battery with a hot CPU right next to it, will only last for a year or two. Do yourself a favor.. if powering the laptop with AC, take the battery OUT of it and for that matter, put it in the fridge. So now your big battery pack is commuting every day in traffic in the heat of Arizona. Sigh, why did my $3000 battery pack only last 8 months? Why do cells keep dying? I am checking cells with my voltmeter more than I get to drive the car... Another reason to look at used cells with a hairy eye.
Obviously, if Tesla uses 18650 cells (quite a lot per car), then it's an idea that works.
Tesla has come up with a new package that is larger and 30% more energy dense than the 18650 if I remember right. The 18650 was the battery Tesla was using.
Last time I priced Lithium batteries they were far more expensive than lead acid batteries but I can't tell you how many are needed. My wife purchased a mini power pack booster for me for my birthday for $39.00 on a Radio Shack clearance sale. That little booster pack is slightly bigger than my smartphone yet it will start my car with a dead battery. Point is technology is changing and one day if not now, there may be a way to use a small Lithium battery . My only concern would be how the small battery would react to the 105 amp charging system. Yes you can but that battery is for a utility vehicle, generator, or lawn equipment. 35a hrs is not much and it has a $209 price tag.
It's not too hard to build a Lithium Ion battery. Protection/charge boards are cheap and you'd probably only need around 8 ncr18650b.
[This message has been edited by jmbishop (edited 06-01-2017).]
Tesla has come up with a new package that is larger and 30% more energy dense than the 18650 if I remember right. The 18650 was the battery Tesla was using.
You are right. Telsa is moving away from 18650's as they have reached their density limit.
Telsa is going towards 20700's. That is what the Gigafactory is going to make. That is one of four Gigafactories planed as well.
The Gigafactory is suppose to produce more batteries in that one plant then all the batteries made in the entire world.
Electric cars are our future, that is why I'm moving towards EV conversion on my Fiero.
Lithium batteries of any type are Not a Drop-in for other rechargeable types included Lead Batteries for cars. They must have more charge control then lead or will overcharge and kill all of them. So you can't just DIY this using w/ laptop and other batteries. Li Ion and some others can catch fire or explode when you overcharge or short circuit them. Even If they don't have fires, Li types Fumes for short circuit etc can still be dangerous like poisoning. (Laptop and others likely has Temperature output from a thermistor, even light(s) to show charging level but nothing to control charging.)
Along the same lines, Many think can just series wire super/ultra caps too. Nope. They will be damage/destroyed w/o "smarts" to keep each cap from over charging.
Also "jumper" packs w/ lead batteries or anything else may start your car but dead batteries can/will fry the alternator. This is why GM makes CS alts to not turn on when you have a low or dead battery. Old GM SI and many others will hate you for jumping a dead battery.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
Yes, they are not a drop-in replacement by any means. Lithium batteries are way more fickle than anything we have seen yet on the battery market.
I imagine the store bought ones that are such are designed with the necessary battery management system to deal with an old world lead-acid charging system.
My interest is in knowing if anyone has pioneered their own, built a battery pack, along with a functioning BMS.
Some bikers have and have documented their projects.
A battery is there to start the car. If you're looking to run a 2000W stereo system with the engine off, that's a whole other topic. Being around race car builders - they switch to motorcycle batteries to save weight. A motorcycle battery will start a car. So if you have a drop-in LIFE motorcycle battery, then it will do the job.
Personally, I recommend moving the battery to the front behind the spare tire to eliminate engine heat affecting it. In cold climates, just switch to a normal motorcycle battery if it's below 32 degrees often. Not a big deal.
Do Not confuse Electric cars powered by Lithium batteries. They not only have computers to handle charging etc but also cooling for them. Many are wet systems that use a radiator. Some are Dry that blow air thru them but have problems like Nissan Leaf batteries and short range cause by hot cells. (more so of buyers in SW states.)
Lithium batteries generate heat to charge and discharge. If you can't dump that heat then the cells have a short range and die much sooner.
quote
Originally posted by RotrexFiero: Yes, they are not a drop-in replacement by any means. Lithium batteries are way more fickle than anything we have seen yet on the battery market.
I imagine the store bought ones that are such are designed with the necessary battery management system to deal with an old world lead-acid charging system.
My interest is in knowing if anyone has pioneered their own, built a battery pack, along with a functioning BMS.
Some bikers have and have documented their projects.
there's a couple way to manage batteries but the cost is high in that world too. "None BMS" still use a smart system to charge monitor etc like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pljSZcEwc8Q
Whether the charge source is solar or alternator - what's the big deal?
I believe that those are smart lithium batteries with built in protection. Put a 105 amp Delco alternator at full output on a reg Lithium ion battery and it could explode. As for Lead acid, they are hurt by winter storage but will last a long time provided that they are periodically de-sulfated. A smart charger like the Optima can bring sulfated batteries back o life.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Sure, if you are trying to power a 2000 watt stereo (with the engine off) or you are an electric car (completely depend on the battery for power) than you need the necessary provisions (BMS) to manage your battery. The battery than become central to your whole system.
But, like most, I have a 3800 SC with an alternator and am not trying to generate enough power to sell back to the power grid. The battery, though very necessary, is only used to start the car, and run a few accessories. Any current lost is quickly replenished, and in that sense the battery has a pretty easy life. Especially when compared to an electric car.
I have to imagine that we are all struggling with this battery technology because, for the most part, we see a battery as a very simple device. We use it, it stops working, and then we throw it out. We don't have the expertise yet to work with these cells.
I have a novel idea. If these small lithium cells which have become so popular and abundant can be adapted to replace the lead-acid battery, which has become very expensive and always been very heavy, than lets do it! Of course, you can go buy one, and so with that, we know it can be accomplished.
Is there the expertise on this forum to accomplish this? We have a lot of smart people here. Years ago putting a turbo on a stock Fiero engine caused a fire storm (Kudos to Dennis L.) cause it was never done. Then the 3800 craze. Ask a question about that and you get a hundred experts chiming in cause we not only pioneered it, but made it the now accepted standard for the Fiero.
My Fiero is anything but stock but more than likely similar to many Fieros on this forum. Yes, my battery is upfront, because of weight and it allows for more room in the engine compartment. With these lithium cells I can put the battery just about anywhere. Anywhere within reason.
Is there the expertise on this forum to accomplish this? We have a lot of smart people here.
Yes. Electronic design consulting for 22 years, my own design lab setup, and I like to dabble in side projects. My Fiero tachometer board and headlight controller are not done yet, but I am still making progress Tach needle now moves with an input signal. But let's only jump if there is not already something out there. What about the packaged battery mentioned above? Is it not suitable? Possible battery.. http://www.batterymart.com/p-ltx680-earthx-etx680-battery.html?gclid=CjwKEAjwvMnJBRCO2NSu-Puc 6AUSJAAf-OSU5SravqcL8xcqt__ihRiS9SJFtnmXojRCHKpAjAYw0BoCwUfw_wcB But if you want to build a battery, then.. What is the peak crank amps that a cold starter needs? You have to parallel enough cells to meet the maximum draw. Say we need 300CCA from the battery. This site.. http://www.candlepowerforum...on-protected-18650-s Mentions this.. "Generally, the maximum discharge rate for LiCoCl cells is 2C, double the cell's capacity in amp hours. For LiMn chemistries, this increases to around 10C or to 20C for LiFePo cells." So with standard 18650 LiCoCl cells (typ 3AH 3.6V), you will need 50 in parallel (300/2*3). With LiFePO4 cells, a 15AH will do alone (300/20), or some combination of that. Say 3 5AH in parallel. For how many sells in series, see.. http://batteryuniversity.co...fusion_with_voltages So it looks like 4 in series to be close to our beloved lead acid. Note that LiCoCl cells and LiFePO4 cells have a different final voltage, and may conflict with alternator voltages. And if you build a battery.. http://www.linear.com/product/LTC3300-1 This shows a cell balance controller. Software in a micro would have to be added, as will over and under voltage protection. A big MOSFET in series would have to handle the CCA. Ouch. Or, if the controller can control the alternator, then you can control over charge. Under charge would be a warning to the driver to stop now, lest you damage the battery.
A $200 budget for a battery development program culminating in one working unit is nonsensical.
Just to get started, I would buy 5-6 different brands of automotive lithium batteries, and strip them apart to see how the pros do it. That first step alone would blow the budget out of the water. We may even find that some of these off-the shelf batteries already use 18650s...
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 06-03-2017).]
Yes, I was kind of illustrating the magnitude of the problem. I was not about to clear off my bench and start buying old laptops. But a Liion works great in my 1982 Suzuki GS750.. and may work great in the Fiero too. CCA could be different between duke, 6 cyl, 3.8, and 8 cyl though.. so something to consider. Different off the shelf for each engine?
A $200 budget for a battery development program culminating in one working unit is nonsensical.
Just to get started, I would buy 5-6 different brands of automotive lithium batteries, and strip them apart to see how the pros do it. That first step alone would blow the budget out of the water. We may even find that some of these off-the shelf batteries already use 18650s...
That battery is $999.99 vs $100 -$200 for a lead battery for Fiero and many others.
If you want to reduce battery weight... Try a hybrid of ultra cap's and smaller lead battery. Battery keep power to ECM etc for weeks if needed and battery + caps for starting. But that cost more too vs most Fiero batteries.
Yes, they are not a drop-in replacement by any means. Lithium batteries are way more fickle than anything we have seen yet on the battery market.
I imagine the store bought ones that are such are designed with the necessary battery management system to deal with an old world lead-acid charging system.
My interest is in knowing if anyone has pioneered their own, built a battery pack, along with a functioning BMS.
Some bikers have and have documented their projects.
It can be done. You just have to figure out how to get over each hurdle. Here's mine:
4x 60ah LiFePO4 cells. Small BMS & a shunt for an ammeter on the side. Weighs ~18lbs. (Use A123 20ah cells if you want to save more weight, but still have plenty of cranking amps)
I'm not running an alternator, but it wouldn't be too difficult to overcome that hurdle.
4x LiFePO4 cells have a maximum charged voltage of 14.6v, which is comfortably close to the 14.4v that lead-acid charging systems are usually limited to. 13.8v float voltage used for lead-acid will still permit cells to charge to ~98% full. Charged, resting voltage is 13.2v.
These cells are rated at 10c - meaning 600 amps for cranking.
BMS to prevent over charge or over discharge. (critical)
Shunt is for ammeter/amp-hour meter - not actually necessary with an alternator.
Starter pulls too many amps for the little BMS - easily solved by bypassing the BMS for JUST the starter.
The right BMS will let the alternator charge straight through it, and prevent over-charge; would need to be rated to handle potentially high charge current. To charge through a separate port or at lower current, you would have to use a separate circuit to limit current. Said components are affordable and readily available.
Relocate battery out of hot engine bay, just in case.
Run LiFeYPO4 instead for cold-weather starting/charging. Regular LiFePO4's will permanently lose capacity if charged below freezing, and have poor performance in cold weather.
LiFePO4 do not have thermal runaway issues, though over-charging or over-discharging can and will ruin them in a hurry. Hence the BMS.
Is it worth it? That's up to you and what you're trying to accomplish. Do it right, and it should last for years. Muck it up and you'll kill it in no time.
Very nice!! I like the idea of bypassing the BMS for starting purposes. Then again, parallel some whopping MOSFETs, and you might just have the rating. I see transistors below the current shunt. Is that part of the BMS? Is there an IC somewhere controlling? Is the LED display just an off the shelf volts or some such? The restriction of not operating below freezing is interesting. I did not know. So it would restrict to non-winter use, which is likely what most of us do anyhow.. but either way, the BMS can monitor temp, and refuse to operate below freezing. The BMS can supply ignition to the key/starter solenoid to allow it to prevent freezing operation.
Very nice!! I like the idea of bypassing the BMS for starting purposes. Then again, parallel some whopping MOSFETs, and you might just have the rating. I see transistors below the current shunt. Is that part of the BMS? Is there an IC somewhere controlling? Is the LED display just an off the shelf volts or some such? The restriction of not operating below freezing is interesting. I did not know. So it would restrict to non-winter use, which is likely what most of us do anyhow.. but either way, the BMS can monitor temp, and refuse to operate below freezing. The BMS can supply ignition to the key/starter solenoid to allow it to prevent freezing operation.
The transistors are part of the BMS. The shunt is the metal bar thingy above that, the rest of it is the BMS, wrapped in high-heat tape to keep the elements out. The transistors control the flow of electricity in to and out of the battery. If any one cell gets below a minimum voltage, it cuts off the power. If any one cell gets above a certain voltage, it stops it charging any more. There are also tiny resistors which bleed off power until the cells get back in balance. It also has short-circuit protection, so if you pull more than 120 amps out of it, it will cut off the power going out, protecting the battery and the BMS.
It's a simple BMS, the same type they use for electric bike packs. Doesn't do anything fancier than protect the batteries and itself.
The LED is both a display and a warning device. It's meant for Lipo R/C packs, but works fine here, as you can choose what voltage sets off the "beep". It will "go off" if any one cell gets below a set voltage...giving me a warning BEFORE the BMS cuts power off completely. It shows the voltage of the full pack, then scrolls through the individual cell voltages.
claims on youtube and others.
