Hey everyone! I've been having an issue with my headlights on my 1984 Fiero. Ever since I've owned the car, the left (driver side) headlight would go down. Nothing else would happen. The right (passenger side) light wouldn't do anything, and the left light wouldn't go up. For a while, I just removed the isolation relay, kept the lights up, and thought nothing of it. Recently, I've been thinking that functional lights would be better. That being said, I started by replacing the two relays that went to the headlight motors, because they were inexpensive. Unfortunately, that did nothing for me. I then wanted to replace the isolation relay. To my dismay, no one makes them... at all. Luckily, however, I found a forum on this site that shows a DIY method to making a new isolation relay here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120467.html . As I was reading how to wire the relay, I noticed that all of the wire colors that I needed to wire was actually where my motor relay was. At first, I just thought that the last owner messed this up, so I swapped the relays. So now, my "new" isolation relay is on the far left side, just left of the left headlight. The motor relay for the left headlight is now just to the right of the left headlight, and the motor relay for the right light is just to the left of the right light. After wiring everything up, absolutely nothing happens when I turn the lights on, as opposed to before, when just the left side would go down.. This brings up 2 questions:

1.) Are those relay locations correct? Is the isolation relay supposed to be all the way to the left, as described?

2.) If so, what else can my problem be? The switch? Motors?

Absolutely any advice would help.

Sam

Sounds like you have a hot date with a volt meter. And schematic. We will need more data before any suggestions can be made.
Per Hanes (which could easily be wrong)
12V goes into light switch on red
12V comes out of light switch on yellow when lights are on
12V comes out of light switch on white when lights are off
12V goes to coil on isolation relay on yellow when lights are on
Ground is present on isolation relay on black
A red wire should have 12V on both RH and LH actuation relay
Black wire on both should have ground.
That's a great place to start.. let us know if all of that is present first.

Thanks. I'll be sure to check all of that in the very near future!

The isolation relay is mounted on the left fender wall. Motor relays are inboard of each headlight so you have them positikned correctly. The isolation relay number ends with 2620 in the event someone has installed an incorrect relay.

If you remove your motors, look inside to be sure both brushes are still on the spring arms. Don't remove the limiter switch if they are. The brushes are fragile and can break off. No need to cause another problem.

You might want to suspect your light switch, too. If tou want to stay with a stock isolation relay, pm or email me as I won't monitor this thread.

Ok, so I checked everything that Chris Eddy suggested, and everything checks out... I also checked all fuses, all are good. I swapped the switch just for the heck of it as well... and it made my lights even more strange. The driver side light will NOT go up, but if you turn the lights on, and twist it open by hand, and then turn the lights off, it will go down. The passenger side is basically the opposite now. It will go up, but it will NOT go down. What's even more strange is that the passenger side light will only go up if the switch is pressed in to the point in which the relay engages, but it will not go up if the switch is fully in the 'on' position. I'm so lost. Given that info, can someone help me out?

I think you have more than one issue....but one problem will be the switch on the instrument panel. It is a bunch of copper contacts that fatigue and lose their shape. You can open it up and fix some tabs. Then see what the headlights do.

I replaced the switch. Are you referring to the connector that has the tabs? I wouldn't imagine that my problem would lie there, because power is indeed getting to all of the relays from the switch. I will take a look, though.

Welcome to the world of Gen1 headlights. After chasing your tail with the relays and switch you are going to find the problem is the motors and how they work or in most cases DON’T. HERE is a youtube video of inside of your motors and a rebuild. They have many other detailed videos on youtube on these headlight motors.

I chased my tail for a few years with these motors rebuilding them twice until I had enough and upgraded to the Gen 2 motors and control module. Unless you are trying to keep the car original I would suggest doing the upgrade now. This will save you a lot of aggravation later. Do a search here and you will find many threads on how to do it. It is one of the better upgrades I did it has been over 15 years with zero problems. The Gen 2 was used on the 87-88 Fieros and Firebirds.

Good luck with your quest I feel your pain… been there done that..

Even if you can get motors from a Firebird, you're still without the proper wiring harness. Generation 2 complete systems are in short supply. Usually the only place to acquire a full system is from a salvage yard vehicle. If you want your Generation 1 motors rebuilt, send them to me. I've been doing them for many years.

Is there any way that I can test the motors? If i send 12V to the green wire that goes to the motor, and a ground to the white wire directly, would that make the motor go up? I'm confident that the motors work, becuase when I lift it by hand, it goes up bit by bit, so I'm sure that no gears are stripped.

What on earth does the blue wire do that has the single connector from the headlight motor? Does that get 12V?

The blue wire on each motor, that has it's own connector, is the wire that powers the motor down when you turn your headlights off. Disconnect this single connector, inspect for corrosion/damage, and follow the blue wire on both sides to verify that it is not getting pinched anywhere. This wire LOVES to get caught on anything if the headlight assembly has ever been removed. Leave the blue wire disconnected for a minute, and apply some dielectric grease to it. Now...
Wind the motor all the way up by hand, be sure the blue wire male and female connectors are easy to reach. Once the motor is all the way up, manually, CAREFULLY reconnect the blue wire to see if the motor now goes down on it's own. Keep your hands, hair, clothing, etc. clear of the headlight assembly. You WILL get caught in it if not careful!

Your choice, I leave the headlight switch off for this process, and because of that, once the blue wire connector is reconnected, the motor immediately goes down. I choose this method because I know how it works and I don't care to drain my battery while tinkering with the headlights. You may improve your safety by turning the headlights on until the final step.

At the final step, reconnecting the blue wire, proceed to turn the headlights off via the switch and watch for the motor to go down on it's own.

Please do be careful either way, I would hate to see fingers getting caught in these mechanisms.

Thanks viperine, I'll try that, too.

Ok, so I saw whether or not those blue wires were all connected, and they were. This was weird, because on the right side, the lights never went down. I decided to pull out both motors, and put a direct 12 volts to the blue wires. The left light woked fine. Up and down was perfect. I then did the same thing for the right side. The lights went right up... but not down. Even with a direct 12 volts from a trickle charger. I now know that the blue wire is not functioning at all for the right side. That being said, my new question is :

Is it possible that it disconnected on the inside? Can i remove a cover from the motor to access the wires?
I really appreciate all of the help guys. I wouldn't have had nearly as much success if it weren't for all of these posts!

Reading this thread reminded me of an old write-up that would be helpful if you have not seen it:

How the gen 1 limit switch works

It's not likely that any of the wires will come loose from inside. They are encased in a latex or silicone plug where they enter the bottom of the motor and that's a part of the limiter switch. If the motor runs in either direction, then the motor itself is good. The problem would be in the limiter switch or in the circuit. One of the brushes may have broken off. You can determine this by removing the 3 screws and side plate on the motor and looking inside. Don't try to remove the limiter switch as I sense you're not experienced with the motors. Just verify that the brushes are there or not. If they are, look to your wiring or a relay or switch.

There's tons of info there! Thanks! I'm gonna try to open mine up and check it out. I'm also gonna make sure that blue wire is in good while it's open.

Yeah, the reason I suggest not removing it is because brushes sometimes catch on the commutator and will break off as you remove the limiter.

If they break off easily there, they were failing anyway. At least that's my view. A generator shop should be able to fix brush issues easily, if you have one around. Basically any shop that repairs alternators and starters. I'm almost positive we have a vendor selling replacement brushes, too. Think it was Rodney? But it's literally just the chunk of metal. Still need to weld/solder it on.
I learned how to tinker with headlight motors by trial and error. All 3 of my cars have pop up headlights and I became resourceful about parts by frequenting the local yards and Craigslist. Hands on experience means you have to start somewhere!

A couple of years ago I did a lot of searching to find anyone who could reattach brushes to the Generation 1 limiter switches, and starter and alternator repair companies couldn't do it.

I worked with a small appliance repair company that specialized in things like clippers, Dremels, and the like. He found a machine to do it but it wasn't profitable for he or I to buy it for the volume we would be repairing. The original brushes were actually soldered on using a spotwelding-like procedure. The brushes are carbon and had to be either high copper content or copper clad. Rodney has found a source of a similar brush material but he uses a conductive adhesive to hold the brushes in place instead of soldering.

The brushes conform to the curvature of the commutator as they wear down. The leading edges catch in the separations of the commutator plates and can pull loose. They may or may not give many more years of service if left alone. I spread the spring arms away from the commutator before removing or installing the limiter switch to reduce the chance of pulling the brushes off. I have a small supply of good limiter switches and can sell a limiter switch for as much as $35. If I pop the brushes off a customer's switch, it really hurts to have to give a customer a $35 switch for a $30 dollar motor repair.

A customer gave me several of Rodney's brushes, but I haven't had the time to devise a method of actually soldering them to the spring arms. I have a theoretical way, but haven't had the time to do any R&D.

Mine came off and I solder it back on with an electronics solder or it may have been a paste with staybrite solder and solder iron. I wish I remembered which one.

I have been studying both Gen 1 and Gen 2 schematics.. I think that it may be possible to modify 3 wire motors to operate with a Gen 2 controller, with and without jumpering the switches inside of them (although the white wire on the headlight switch may be different between the two systems).
I measured my Gen 2 setup today.. the controller sends power to the motors only briefly.. enough to make them change position. On the Gen1 system, power is applied all the time, and stops flowing only when a motor reaches the end switch. I can see how a Gen1 malfunction can apply power forever.
If you have Gen 1 issues with headlights not going down, consider the white wire going to the control relay. The red wire that goes to each of the isolation relays is not used to power the motors down.. the white wire is.

Chris, you're right. I have a set of motors that have 2 wires on the limiter spliced together. Came out of an 87.

I think I finally found my problem!

Alright, I took out the limit switch, and very carefully followed that pesky blue wire to its connector. I took out my multimeter to check continuity. I put one end to the blue wire, and the other to the piece of brass that holds it to the switch. The connection there was good. I then moved it from the brass to the actual arm that is pressing up against it, and I got nothing. My guess is a bad connection from the arm to the brass holding for the blue wire. Sanding it and/or filing it down seems almost impossible, seeing as how there is almost no room to work. Any suggestions? I'll try to use a Q-tip with rubbing alcohol for now. I doubt that it will work, and I'm leaning towards getting a new limit switch. Is there any available online? Anywhere?

Thanks, you guys!

I have a few. $35 includes Priority Mail shipping.

conductive epoxy?

I just used some alcohol and q-tip, got continuity, but still no turning when i put power to the blue... i guess it's shot. Lets make a deal, fierofool

Whatcha need?

Brass is easily cleaned with vinegar. Amazing what a little acid will do in comparison to sanding.

Ok, hold on a sec... before I buy a new one, who agrees that based on my predicamet that i actually need a new one? Any other tips that might just give me a miracle?

P.S: viperine, im definetly gonna use some vinegar, just to ensure a good connection.

Westley's Bleech White or Castrol Super Clean does a great job, too. Brush with an old toothbrush. Rinse very well with hot water.

I have been working on something for the early headlight systems. My first idea I put a fair amount of money, time and effort into trying to design it with a local EE. I finally threw in the towel on that idea. Ultimately I could probably be successful but it would cost too much for the development and testing etc. Plus I may have never succeded if the cost got too high and I eventually gave up. I'll probably explain this in detail at a later date.

So I tried a different idea. Someone installed it and reported little to no improvement (current to the armatures). I was surprised. I thought this second idea would have had better results.

So on to my next design that I know will work. Maybe by late winter or so I'll have some on hand for a few to try N/C for R&D. Will be a nice upgrade and hopefully eliminate most or all of the low voltage to the armature problems with the 84-86 headlight motor system.

------------------
Rodney Dickman

Fiero Parts And Acc's Web Page:
All new web page!:www.rodneydickman.com
Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
Phone/Fax (262) 835-9575

Ahoy Rodney! Want to partner on it? I design electronics for a living.. trust me, I can lick this.
I looked at the schematics, and fussed with my 87.. the gen 2 design appears to have a current sensing cutoff, with a fixed cut off time in case high current never arrives.
If my hunch is right, one module can solve gen 1 and 2.
The only difference that I can see, and it may be schematics lying to me, is that the white wire leaving the lights switch in the off position.. on gen 1, it is hot in full off. On gen 2, it is hot when not in full off.
Also, I believe that we can tie two of the wires together on gen 1 motors, and make them gen 2. One can then leave the switches in the motors, or bypass them. We can make up one pigtail that converts 3 wire to 2 wire, if the connectors can be had.
I would design one module, and then use one on each side (IE an isolation relay replacement) and get rid of the central device. One red wire with fuse link is already going to the front (well hidden on gen 2 though) which would provide power. The two signals from the light switch would only be used for mode signals.
There would be some rewiring, but maybe we can make a harness for gen 1 and another for gen 2.
And the best part is that we can put LEDs on it to show troubleshooting.

This is what I have where Generation 1 motors are used in a Generation 2 system.

Limiter switch blue and gray wires to the Gen 2 female harness plug green.
Limiter switch green to the Gen 2 female harness plug gray.

Both motors are wired identically. You would need to change the lifting arms over from Gen 2 to the Gen 1 motors.

I've struck gold! Well... brass, if you want to be literal . I used vinegar, and an old toothbrush, and cleaned that connection point really well. I also bent the arm very slightly just so the contact has more 'weight' to it. I hooked up the wires to a trickle charger (Blue to +, Green to -). I wasn't expecting much, but, amazingly, the motor started to spin closed! That solves my main problem! If it weren't for everyone's input in this forum, I probably never would've took out the motor, let alone try messing with the limit switch. I'm gonna remount everything tomorrow, and let you all know how it goes. I still have a feeling that I may still have a faulty relay, but that will be determined tomorrow. For tonight (at least where I am), I just want to thank you all. I now have two perfectly functioning headlight motors!

I spoke too soon . If 12 volts goes through the blue wire, the motor spins closed, as it should. But now, when I put it 12 volts to grey, it goes down too. I was too happy with the fact that the blue worked that I didn't even check the grey last night. I guess the limit switch is connecting the grey and blue now??? I don't know. This is bizzare.

[This message has been edited by Raz0rblade654 (edited 01-22-2017).]

Did you ever figure it out? Mine is doing the same. Switch and all. Right side goes up and down but drivers side only goes up. Headlight switch has to be pushed halfway in order for motors to work. Both headlight relays are new. Oddly, when turned off
, there is only 7 volts on the blue wire on the drivers side and it doesn't go down. Curious why the relays only engage when the headlight switch is halfway on.

Sorry for not looking at this thread in a while lol. But i just said screw it, and wired it myself with 3-way switches, from the battery directly to the motors. It works fine, and the switches dont look awful.