I've looked unsuccessfully for a 2.0L GM LTG engine (http://www.chevrolet.com/pe...g-four-cylinder.html) build thread. A PFF search only finds "LTG" in 9 threads, and none are close to discussing build details. With these engines being used in the Buick Regal, Malibu, Cadillac ATS, Cadillac CTS, Cadillac CT6, and Camaro, used engines are starting to pop up for ~$2,000.
I'm looking for a swap to my 1987 2.8L, 5-speed manual GT that will give something in the 250-300 hp range, keep the car light, and also gets decent fuel economy. The LTG engine seems to fit the bill, so it's interesting no one has done this swap yet. Maybe I'm missing something?
What are thoughts on the feasibility of this swap (2.8L, 5 speed manual to a 2.0L LTG keeping the 5 speed manual)? Have any of the performance shops created a kit yet? What are the biggest hurdles?
Not sure what 5 speed manual you're referring to that would come with the LTG though. The manual transmission which comes in the FWD cars equipped as such, should be an F40 six speed.
You'll likely need to also convert the wheel hubs to something capable of having ABS sensors as well, as the Ecotec F40 trans does not have a VSS and the computer gets this from the wheel speed sensors instead.
Sorry, maybe my post wasn't clear. I'm proposing swapping in the LTG and keeping the stock Fiero 5 speed manual transmission.
I wouldn't do that. They aren't the same bell housing, so you'd need an adapter plate. The gearing in the F40 is also better suited to the smaller 4 cylinder, and you'll want the 6th gear for highway cruising.
If you want to stay with a 5 speed, swapping in an F35 from one of the turbo Cobalt SS cars would probably be a better option than the stock Fiero trans.
Good transmission comments. If we use an F35 or F40, I assume we would need new halfshafts, clutch interface, and shift mechanism? If so, then we have to pick our poison (bellhousing and flywheel adapters vs. custom halfshafts, shift mechanism, and clutch interface).
Well, not just that. The depth for the bell housing is not the same across all the transmissions. You won't need a "flywheel adapter" to use the Fiero 282, but you'll need an entirely custom flywheel. The Fiero 282 is also not rated or built to handle the same amount of power that the F35 or F40 are. Depending on how you are going to drive the car, you might find yourself needing to replace the trans soon enough if you stick with the 282 anyway.
I think ZZP has a half-shaft and bracket available with the ring for a VSS. Other than that, the half shaft can be the stock one from Cobalt/Regal/etc… and you will need mounts and maybe custom axles.
All of these are part of the reason the LNF/LTG swaps haven't been done yet, and why there aren't many other Ecotec swaps either. The 3800 is a cheaper and easier swap, so it's what most everyone does. If you want cheap, easy, reliable, and good MPG, the Series III 3800 N/A is 240+ HP stock, bolts right up to the Fiero 282 trans, uses a turned down Camaro 3800 flywheel, and can get you ~38 MPG on the highway.
I think the F23 is going to become the universal Fiero swap transaxle in the very near future, uses stock axles, has VSS signal, 60 degree, Quad4 and Ecotec bellhousings, cheap and strong, the details are already sorted out.
I have all four of the transaxles in question (282, F23, F35 and F40) and in most of the varieties available; no HF F40 though.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 10-27-2016).]
I think the F23 is going to become the universal Fiero swap transaxle in the very near future, uses stock axles, has VSS signal, 60 degree, Quad4 and Ecotec bellhousings, cheap and strong, the details are already sorted out.
I have all four of the transaxles in question (282, F23, F35 and F40) and in most of the varieties available; no HF F40 though.
I'd rather use the half-shaft than stock axles though, and the F23 still isn't a straight bolt-in option. It's a decent option for a manual 3800 or a Quad4 swap, but for any FWD engine from the last ~10 years or so or newer, grabbing at least a whole cradle drop out, if not the entire car, will make a swap much easier.
The f35 from the cobalt SS supercharged will bolt up to all 2.2 , 2.4 ,2.0 ecotecs .These axles fit Fiero hubs too .Engines that came out of automatic cars will need some swapping out of thermostat housings because of interference issues .Axles from this tranny can be used in f40 's . f35 from the turbo cobalt ss uses a larger diameter spline going to the hub so it cant be adapted to a fiero hub .The wheel bolt pattern is also larger than the 5 x 100 of the fiero . If you are doing an ecotec swap , the f23 from a 2.2 ecotec equipped cavalier /cobalt is the easiest because you can use the fiero axles .
Getting the whole drivetrain of a newer turbo ecotec is going to leave him with axles that do not fit fiero spindles .And then he is going to have to mix and match anyways .The problem with people asking these questions about putting modern GM components in to a fiero is they think they can find somebody to do it for them . You have to figure out how to do it yourself , if you want to build something other than a 3800 swap . There was a person on this forum that had a 2.2 ecotec swapped in by a shop .The price was somewhere around 10,000.00 and they left him with a shifter that had first 3rd and 5th at the bottom of the travel .He sold it not too long later .You want to adapt a modern drivetrain in to a fiero ? Spend your money on tools and do it yourself .And be well off enough to have another car you can depend on while you play with your hobby car .
Wftb, thank you for the brutally honesty answer. That is what I am looking for. The short answer seems like: no one has done the 2.0L LTG swap yet, there are no "kits" for that swap, and there are more challenges than other swaps out there (ex: series 3 3800). Now we need to decide if we want to accept the LTG challenge (for the benefits of a more modern engine, slightly better performance, and chance to say we did something rather unique) OR go with a more standard swap (probably a 3800) that is a little lower performance, easier (relatively speaking) to implement, and probably less costly.
Originally posted by wftb: Getting the whole drivetrain of a newer turbo ecotec is going to leave him with axles that do not fit fiero spindles .And then he is going to have to mix and match anyways .The problem with people asking these questions about putting modern GM components in to a fiero is they think they can find somebody to do it for them . You have to figure out how to do it yourself , if you want to build something other than a 3800 swap.
When you choose a path and components for the swap, you have to decide where you want to follow known workable solutions and where to deviate. For this swap, I would pull the whole drivetrain with the plan to swap the stock axles with the Cobalt SS (Supercharged) axles have been used a few times on F40 swaps. I already have the clutch connector and a shifter bracket/reverse lockout/cable setup for the F40 that uses the stock 5 speed shifter, but I know the bracket would require reworking the base because this F40 only has a 2 bolt flange for the shift mechanism and my F40 bracket uses 3 (which is what the G6 one uses). Clutch and flywheel would remain stock GM parts and I wouldn't change them for the swap unless it had high miles.
So then you are left with mounts, plumbing, wiring, and exhaust and most of these are engine specific segments that you will have to do based on engine choice, not transmission selection.
There is no magic to the LTG - why not use an LNF, which can be had cheaply from Solstice or Redline cars?
I believe that there is also an adaptor for th bellhousing - check the thread on the transplant of a normally aspirated Ecotec into a Fiero.
It is very easy to get between 400 and 500 bhp out of these engines (I make do with 375 in a Solstice).
The LTG is a better and more efficient engine, and IIRC already flex-fuel capable. Along with the internal engine refinements of the Gen III Ecotec block, my understanding is that it has better heads, and there are some nice refinements to the turbocharger itself, and the exhaust manifold.
In regards to LTG vs. LNF (Gen 3 vs. Gen 2 Ecotecs), is it a safe assumption that the external interfaces (bellhousing bolt pattern, flywheel geometry, mounts, etc.) are the same between these two generations? In other words, if I research Gen 2 Ecotec swaps, would these give good insight (at least a starting point) on how to deal with transmissions, axles, exhaust, intake, fuel, wiring, ECU, etc.? I do see the intake and exhaust are swapped sides from Gen 3 to Gen 2, so that's different. Any other major "gotchas"?
In regards to LTG vs. LNF (Gen 3 vs. Gen 2 Ecotecs), is it a safe assumption that the external interfaces (bellhousing bolt pattern, flywheel geometry, mounts, etc.) are the same between these two generations? In other words, if I research Gen 2 Ecotec swaps, would these give good insight (at least a starting point) on how to deal with transmissions, axles, exhaust, intake, fuel, wiring, ECU, etc.? I do see the intake and exhaust are swapped sides from Gen 3 to Gen 2, so that's different. Any other major "gotchas"?
The bell pattern is the same for all Ecotec engines, yes. May be differences in flywheel depending on engine/trans combo.
As for intake/exhaust sides on the heads, it's basically unimportant when swapping into a Fiero, but it looks like the LTG puts the exhaust on the "front" side of the engine, which is where the stock Fiero exhaust dump is, so should make it a little easier to do the exhaust when using engines with the exhaust on the front firewall side. You don't have to cut the trunk and deal with making everything fit decently on the trunk side then, and can get a nice full exhaust routing a bit more easily.
Having the exhaust come out the front might be a deal breaker .If some one could get the dimension from the cylinder head to the outer side of the turbo , I could check and see how much room there is .If there is enough clearance it becomes a big plus because the cat convertor is bolted to the turbo and points down so the exhaust would be easy to route .My 2.2 has a slight rearward lean to it because that is the way the cav/sunfire/cobalts were designed .Gives a bit extra room for the intake but it is tight .
With a turbocharged engine swap, how have people dealt with the intercooler? I'm guessing routing air to a front-of-the-car mounted intercooler is out of the question, but there's basically no room or air flow in the engine bay area to mount an intercooler, right?
With a turbocharged engine swap, how have people dealt with the intercooler? I'm guessing routing air to a front-of-the-car mounted intercooler is out of the question, but there's basically no room or air flow in the engine bay area to mount an intercooler, right?
Air/water system, or go with meth injection without an IC, or just no IC, depending on how much boost is going to be run.
I have air to water IC as well as water /meth . I have run an air to air where the cat used to be , but intake temps were about 15* F higher than air to water .
At the pressures those engines use an IC is mandatory. Locating one in a Fiero so that the flow is adequate is a bit problematic.
I wonder if one could be mounted in modified rear wing, and if flow would then be enough to keep it cool.
I run my LNF to 26-26 psi. You can't run more than 10-12 psi without an IC - it becomes diminishing returns as every psi of added pressure adds heat which offsets the power you were hoping to gain from the increased pressure.
At the pressures those engines use an IC is mandatory. Locating one in a Fiero so that the flow is adequate is a bit problematic.
I wonder if one could be mounted in modified rear wing, and if flow would then be enough to keep it cool.
I run my LNF to 26-26 psi. You can't run more than 10-12 psi without an IC - it becomes diminishing returns as every psi of added pressure adds heat which offsets the power you were hoping to gain from the increased pressure.
No. Knock reduction measures are necessary. An air-to-air inteercooler is only one method, and is not an efficient or effective application in a Fiero. An air/water intercooler, and/or meth injection are going to be more effective in a Fiero. i would say it's more like 7-8 PSI max with no knock reduction methods at all in a Fiero. But air/water intercooler, meth injection, and/or E85 as only fuel, are all decent methods. There's also a lot that can be done with the LTG in terms of electronic boost control and timing, to prevent knock. It won't make as much power if you pull boost pressure or timing out, but it will save the engine.Combined with good knock prevention methods, such as methanol injection, and running E85, though, the boost and timing can be maintained to make maximum power (which you won't used on the street anyway).
You are forgetting that all new turbo ecotec motors are direct injected .They run usually in the 18 psi range and they already have air to water intercoolers built in .I do not know wether they are setup as flex fuel engines but seeing as most newer cars are that would probably be the case .Direct injection cools the pistons and allows higher compression and higher boost pressures .
You are forgetting that all new turbo ecotec motors are direct injected .They run usually in the 18 psi range and they already have air to water intercoolers built in .I do not know wether they are setup as flex fuel engines but seeing as most newer cars are that would probably be the case .Direct injection cools the pistons and allows higher compression and higher boost pressures .
The intercooler is not "built in" to the engine. And I'm pretty sure they use air-air intercoolers mounted in front of the radiator. The intake piping definitely runs to/from the bottom front of the car. There's no air/water interchange box anywhere near the engine itself.
DI doesn't really "cool the pistons." However, the new engines do have oil jets which spray the bottom of the pistons to help cool them. What DI does is keep the fuel out of the chamber until nearly the end of the compression cycle, which greatly reduces the chance of detonation. That's what allows the higher CR and boost levels.
DI definitely cools the pistons .The shot of cool gasoline hitting the centre of the piston before the flame starts has a big cooling effect on it .The oil squirters have an affect too but no where near as much because of the high temperature of the oil .Better than nothing but not even close to DI .The gasoline charge coming in to an NA engines has a cooling effect as well .Engines that have gas starved conditions develop at high speeds on tracks like Daytona have had the tops of pistons melt .
You can buy a brand new crate engine LTG from GM for only 9000.00 LOL .Optional stand alone wiring and ECM system that I did not see a price on . It does not have a built in intercooler that is correct .In the description it says that intercooling is mandatory and IAT should never be allowed to go above 140C .That seems really high , I would not dare to run my engine with intake temps above 60 C .The oiling system description makes no mention of piston squirters .I went to a GM description of the production motor and it said that they used piston skirt oilers .I also learned that the engine is entirely new design and has dimensions in common with previous turbo ecotecs but I got the impression that nothing is interchangeable with the old engines .
[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-01-2016).]
