Back up your claims... otherwise you just look silly.
quote
Originally posted by E.Furgal:
You know how to google.. Why was the materials ppm lowered?? oh that's right. the EPA requirement that emission controls last 100k under warranty.. (now 150k they want) and the materials they lowered the ppm harm those parts.. So, ya. EPA reg's .. I have to go to work, so google it..
I have the original performance manual from GM, kind of long if anyone wants it, I will email it to you and you can post it, some one a few years ago posted it here and I saved all of it in pictures. as it was posted here in a thread.
Originally posted by Hudini: Be careful if you upgrade the cam though. Those 1.6 rockers caused a nasty metal to metal noise with my Comp 260H cam with stock valve springs. I did purchase the performance beehive springs from the Fiero Store that is supposed to allow the higher lift without binding. I haven't had a chance to test them yet.
The stock V6 valve springs can handle the Comp Cams 260H camshaft OR the 1.6:1 rockers... not both. That nasty noise you heard was the valve springs binding. You shouldn't run the engine until that problem is addressed.
Poking around I found these claims as to why ZDDP was reduced:
"long term toxicity concerns. The chemical compound is especially toxic to aquatic wildlife. "
"catalytic converter life times are decreased by contamination with Zinc and Phosphates."
"the phosphorous in the zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate unfortunately performs a phosphate coating in the catalytic converter, and this reduces the efficiency of the catalyst"
"It has been reported that zinc and phosphorus emissions may damage catalytic converters and standard formulations of lubricating oils for gasoline engines now have reduced amounts of the additive due to the API limiting the concentration of this additive in new API SM and SN oils, however this only affects 20 and 30 grade "ILSAC" oils,"
" phosphorus in ZDDP is hard on catalytic converters, and exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems perform better when there are more detergents and dispersants in the oil. So ZDDP has been reduced, while detergents and dispersants have been increased in modern oils."
Back on topic, yes, 1.6 rockers will give a tiny bump in power across the whole torque curve, usually. If you really want to make use of them though, you need to port the heads and intake manifold, and remove the restriction in the neck of the upper plenum, as well as port the exhaust manifolds and remove the restrictions there as well.
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This, plus a 70 lb weight reduction and a low restriction cat, is exactly what I did and I'm very happy with the results.
The 1.6 rockers were installed last and they really made the biggest difference, probably took advantage of all the other mods would be my guess.
It's especially noticeable in the 30-55 MPH range with a lot more acceleration shifting from 3rd to 2nd.
Poking around I found these claims as to why ZDDP was reduced:
"long term toxicity concerns. The chemical compound is especially toxic to aquatic wildlife. "
"catalytic converter life times are decreased by contamination with Zinc and Phosphates."
"the phosphorous in the zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate unfortunately performs a phosphate coating in the catalytic converter, and this reduces the efficiency of the catalyst"
"It has been reported that zinc and phosphorus emissions may damage catalytic converters and standard formulations of lubricating oils for gasoline engines now have reduced amounts of the additive due to the API limiting the concentration of this additive in new API SM and SN oils, however this only affects 20 and 30 grade "ILSAC" oils,"
" phosphorus in ZDDP is hard on catalytic converters, and exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) systems perform better when there are more detergents and dispersants in the oil. So ZDDP has been reduced, while detergents and dispersants have been increased in modern oils."
To add THE EPA regs require the emission parts to last 100k , And pass inspection emission testing.. forcing the ppm to be lowered in all over the road oils.. no matter the brand, or if man made or dino.. And why some oils say, race oil for off road use only.. but not all race oils have the ppm needed for flat tappets and ball and socket rockers..
I'm sure a few will say otherwise.. but they are running a weak spring, and no rpm for any length of time.. If they tested their 2.8 springs they might be shocked at just how weak they are.. longer rockers load the ball/socket more,= more friction,= more need for the minerial todays oils lack.. You can't just add a bottle of zddp and zink additive to todays oils.. as the super high detergents package removes the zddp/zinc as fast as it is put down.. like a dog chasing it's tail..
sure the stock 2.8 cam might not blue the balls,, and sockets.. nor will the aftermarket cams that played nice with the oem ecu.. but not everyone is running very mild cams, and weak springs..and low rpm.. Those that have had the engine at 4500-6500 for lengths of time with or without the 1.6 rockers or stronger springs should look at the ball and socket of the rockers... most here don't run those rpm's, and if they do it's short burst. Go run around out of overdrive for a long trip and see what happens, I already know.. but some need to learn the hard way..
Originally posted by E.Furgal: Those that have had the engine at 4500-6500 for lengths of time with or without the 1.6 rockers or stronger springs should look at the ball and socket of the rockers... most here don't run those rpm's, and if they do it's short burst.
If you want to run that RPM range with a 2.8 you're going to need a whole hell of a lot more than just rockers. The 2.8 starts running out of breath at around 4400. You can open it up a bit and move it up to 5000 or so, but nothing described in this thread is going to get you a 2.8 that can turn 6500. If most people managed to force a 2.8 that high, they're going to be looking for a new engine, because they don't run so well when one performs careless defenestration of the rods. Heck, most people spinning their 2.8 to even 5000 will likely end up with blown head gaskets or cracked heads. 30 year old worn out engines don't tend to last forever when ran like that.
This thread is about a cheap upgrade that will yield a slight increase in torque across the existing torque curve; not how to build a race ready 2.8 that garners every last bit of power it can muster and spin 6500 RPM all day long. If you want to spend the money to do that, then fine, go ahead and do it, and go make your own thread. Keep the overly dramatic exaggerations out of this one please.
When I went to 1.6's, I went full roller (fulcrum and tip) and was able to reuse them in my subsequent rebuild because they showed no wear. Technology is a wonderful thing. Just use good parts and don't cheap-out. Yes, you can do this upgrade (non-roller) but just remember it's a cheap way to spruce up an old engine. When you rebuild - do it right and go full roller. NON-roller is ancient tech.
If you want to run that RPM range with a 2.8 you're going to need a whole hell of a lot more than just rockers. The 2.8 starts running out of breath at around 4400. You can open it up a bit and move it up to 5000 or so, but nothing described in this thread is going to get you a 2.8 that can turn 6500. If most people managed to force a 2.8 that high, they're going to be looking for a new engine, because they don't run so well when one performs careless defenestration of the rods. Heck, most people spinning their 2.8 to even 5000 will likely end up with blown head gaskets or cracked heads. 30 year old worn out engines don't tend to last forever when ran like that.
This thread is about a cheap upgrade that will yield a slight increase in torque across the existing torque curve; not how to build a race ready 2.8 that garners every last bit of power it can muster and spin 6500 RPM all day long. If you want to spend the money to do that, then fine, go ahead and do it, and go make your own thread. Keep the overly dramatic exaggerations out of this one please.
yet you post "I fixed it for you" above of a total engine family swap.. that is not cheap , but carry on..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 08-28-2016).]
Originally posted by E.Furgal: yet you post "I fixed it for you" above of a total engine family swap.. that is not cheap , but carry on..
Well, thanks for pointing out your inability to perform basic reading comprehension, particularly failing to follow context.
Or do you think a full rebuild of a 2.8 is somehow cheap? Never mind, don't answer that. You'll only reply with some rant full of overly dramatic rhetoric, that again does nothing to provide useful information to this thread, or the forum in general. Like I said, if you want to do a full rebuild of a 2.8 to make it spin to 6500, by all means, go ahead. Start a build thread for it. I'd like to see a totally all-out 2.8 build.
I personally don't bother rebuilding 2.8's ... I get a 3100/3400 engine for a few hundred bucks, strip it and send that out to get rebuilt along with the 2.8 heads. A basic rebuild including balancing and assembling the long block costs ~$2000... It's not "cheap" but in the end you have a brand new motor and some good power upgrades. The head porting costs an extra $400-500 but sooo worth it. Going forward, instead of buying the FieroStore SSI valves (discontinued), I'm just going to have the stock ones cut back... Yea there's $140 for pushrods and the 1.6 full roller rockers but again, I have a motor that will go 100+k miles rather than a used ticking timebomb.
I gave the guy that sold me the 3800SC swap a ride in my 3.4 (3400 w/iron heads) and he was pretty amazed/impressed how it felt. If a 3800SC makes 240 stock that's about 200-210 to the wheels and my 3.4 builds aren't too far off behind that in the grand scheme. Yes - I know the POTENTIAL of a 3800SC, but these low-budget swaps that most people do aren't going to see that *potential* for some time...if ever.
My next "rebuild" is going to be a 3.5L engine...will involve a 3.7" bore and pistons from GM's 3.6DOHC motor shaved down about .1" and aluminum 5.8" v8 connecting rods. Spring seats will be modified to use V8 springs and adding a .510" cam... I want to be able to rev it to 8000 so I won't have to shift into 3rd gear at the oval track until just before turn 3... Obviously this is a purpose built motor that won't see much mileage off the track...longevity be damned!
The stock V6 valve springs can handle the Comp Cams 260H camshaft OR the 1.6:1 rockers... not both. That nasty noise you heard was the valve springs binding. You shouldn't run the engine until that problem is addressed.
Agreed, but nobody told me that before I tried it, therefore my warning to any coming after me. The engine started and ran about 2-3 minutes tops before the cringe factor became too high. Luckily there was no discernible damage other than my pride.
Now I cannot scientifically say that ZDDP levels in modern oils are too low or different or whatever, but I can say that after a very short period of time I wiped several cam lobes off my stock 3.4L cam. Who knows, maybe it's just the internet's ability to spread rumor quickly but I have read many horror stories about wiped flat tappet cam lobes. I always add ZDDP to my oil after an oil change now.
So any part numbers on these 1.6 rockers? And again, do you need to change out push rods with these or are the stock 3.4 push rods okay with these rockers? Thanks, Tate
So any part numbers on these 1.6 rockers? And again, do you need to change out push rods with these or are the stock 3.4 push rods okay with these rockers? Thanks, Tate
Well, thanks for pointing out your inability to perform basic reading comprehension, particularly failing to follow context.
Or do you think a full rebuild of a 2.8 is somehow cheap? Never mind, don't answer that. You'll only reply with some rant full of overly dramatic rhetoric, that again does nothing to provide useful information to this thread, or the forum in general. Like I said, if you want to do a full rebuild of a 2.8 to make it spin to 6500, by all means, go ahead. Start a build thread for it. I'd like to see a totally all-out 2.8 build.
If you don't want to "reply with some rant full of dramatic rhetoric.....", that's OK, just keep reading dobie's post. He already took care of it for you.
Thanks. It's a shame that this thread has turned into this craziness. I remember joining PFF and it used to not be this bad, no it seems almost every thread someone want's to just start drama. Thanks again for the good info regarding this mod. Tate
Aside from all the bickering back and forth thanks for the information. I do have a question, where are you guys picking up 3.1/3.4's for a few hundred? Junkyards? Addtionally, is rebuilding a 2.8 really that expensive if you dont do any machine work? I keep hearing this repeated but looking at some costs from the outside it does not look to be bad without machine work mind you.
Note that the bickering took place 4 months ago. Lately I have noticed an improvement since the election.
Doing major work on a 2.8 is like any other engine.....it makes sense until you spend more money than a replacement engine would cost. Because there are so many 3.1 and 3.4 engines available, the 2.8 does not get rebuilt that often.
check with Car-part.com for engines. You will need to enter a car and year to find a list of engines. For the 3.1, you can use the 1995 Chevy Lumina Van, and for the 3.4, enter the 1995 Chevrolet Camaro.
[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 01-19-2017).]
I guess I'm an oddball. I buy a replacement engine AND rebuild that engine. 2.8's and Camaro 3.4's are dinosaurs. The roller cam blocks offer better cam...even if you stick with 1.5 rockers you get .410 lift on the intake vs .390 and its a roller design which frees up more hp. Starter holes are on the correct side. Oil pan is properly baffled for a transverse engine unlike the Fiero and Camaro oil pans...so no more low oil pressure on sharp left turns...
It's the deep-dish pistons causing a low compression engine that necessitates a rebuild on 3100/3400/3500(non-VVT) blocks. Speaking of 3500-nonVVT blocks. They are essentially 3400 blocks with a 3.7" bore vs. 3.62" for 3.4/3400... You can use the STOCK pistons from the 3.6L DOHC GM motor in those to get a 10:1 compression ratio with iron heads.
Note that the bickering took place 4 months ago. Lately I have noticed an improvement since the election.
Doing major work on a 2.8 is like any other engine.....it makes sense until you spend more money than a replacement engine would cost. Because there are so many 3.1 and 3.4 engines available, the 2.8 does not get rebuilt that often.
check with Car-part.com for engines. You will need to enter a car and year to find a list of engines. For the 3.1, you can use the 1995 Chevy Lumina Van, and for the 3.4, enter the 1995 Chevrolet Camaro.
True and true...lol I was just curious because I am had planned on rebuilding mine simply to make it last until I do a complete swap at some point down the road. However almost everyone talks about just doing a 3.1/3.4 so it had me curious is all.
[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 01-19-2017).]
The last 3.4 I did for one of the Fieros I had, (The top of page 16 of my swap thread, the Red 85GT) I got the engine from Pick-APart, short block, injectors, and 1.6 rockers were $215.00 out the door. I had to pull it my self with the help of a friend, we had it out and stripped in 1 1/2 hrs. It didn't need to be bored, I did all the other work myself, including lapping in the valves, installing cam bearings, minor porting, flowing/cleaning injectors etc. With new bearings, gaskets, and fluids, it was under $400 installed. Rockauto really cut the price down too. With over 180 compression, it ran like a top. It's when you pay some one else does the price skyrocket. (and your pride goes down)
So it can be done cheaply with very good results.
So Lou that is why I went with the Camarobird engine vs the 3400. I was selling the car and wanted a good engine for it, without breaking the bank.
So other than supposed valve guide wear, the Comp Cams Magnum 1.6 roller-tipped rockers have no real advantage over the junkyard 1.6 rockers.
Furthermore, when in doubt, simply copy the best. The best in pushrod engines are the GM V8s, and nowadays they have plain tips, with bearing fulcrums.
The improvement in valve guide wear is worthwhile on its own and when added to the additional lift, the Magnum rockers are a nice way to go. I ran them on my turbo motor as well as on my 3.4 in a British sports car, in conjunction with Comp Cams springs and in the case of my naturally aspirated motor, a 272 cam (the 260 isn't worth bothering with).
BTW, no point using that cam unless you first address the bottlenecks in flow the OP mentioned, as well as a significant bottleneck on the exhaust crossover pipe and some detailing in the intake side.
Lately I have noticed an improvement since the election.
I don't really understand why an election... wherever/whatever, should have any bearing on an automotive tech forum. I was hoping to have left all that useless drama behind when after too many years I finally wised up and left OT.
Cheap mods are nice and will add extra zip. You might even be able to run a 16 second 1/4 mile with them.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
If you feel it's necessary, why don't you chastise the first person who sent this thread off-track? I was simply agreeing/stating it's a shame that people can't keep their political beliefs to themselves in a tech forum.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 01-22-2017).]
I was simply agreeing/stating it's a shame that people can't keep their political beliefs to themselves in a tech forum.
Maybe its because the decisions of many of these corrupt socialist government bureaucrats affect our hobby. They want to tell you how to think, what you should say, how you should feel and what you should believe in.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Thanks. It's a shame that this thread has turned into this craziness. I remember joining PFF and it used to not be this bad, no it seems almost every thread someone want's to just start drama. Thanks again for the good info regarding this mod. Tate
Those two have history in O/T so just don't pay them any mind. If you know them it's entertaining though.
