Yes, they did. The original owner who had the bar installed used the car as a daily driver and he made a number of Run For The Hills. The owner I got it from also made a number of Run For The Hills and was into drifting, so it really got a workout. I've found some bolts in my box of bolts that have the washer attached. Fender bolts of various sizes that might work. It's been years, but I seem to remember Don telling me that he drilled a pilot hole in the cradle then used the bolt to cut the threads. It might have been a fender bolt common to the Fiero instead of a self-tapping bolt.
I think Don may have used just them because of clearance problems on the inside wall of the cradle. I can't identify the thread, so that's part of why I'm thinking of welding a plate to the frame. Even though the bolts shown in my pictures would fit, some were loose and some were difficult to screw in. I'd rather have something fresh that I know their properties.
I would suggest using a stock swaybar bushing mount to locate holes. That will give you the option of using aftermarket mounts. If you drill too narrow or wide, stock mounts can never be used. You might not like the poly bushings and want to go back to a softer, quieter rubber bushing.
The previous owners certainly did test the self tappers. A few years of "Run for the Hills" will test a suspension. Maybe the self tappers are the way to go.
I think the front bar, mounted in the front of the car, is mounted with self tappers at the factory. One thing I'm not sure about, as its been awhile, is if the factory used anything on the back side to help secure the bolts, like plates or nut certs or whatever. Last time I replaced the front bar bushings it appeared that the self tapping bolts were just into the frame metal. Also the bolts appeared to have a finer thread and were metric.
Another observation with front bolts, over time corrosion will effect the self tapper and its hole in the frame. Not that it's a major concern, but probably means breaking the self tapping bolt may be in order later to change mount bushings. I soaked with PB Blaster and used a touch of Mapp gas to free ours before removing. Of course both cars had a couple years as daily drivers in MI. Though this didn't look to be a problem with yours, up north it could be something to think about. Then again, maybe that corrosion is a good thing locking in the bolt to the frame, who needs stink'n lock nuts.
Appreciate your insights on the mount sizes. I'll most likely use the stock mounts with the poly. I have had poly on the fronts of our seasonal cars for years with no problems, can't see the rear being any different.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 04-08-2016).]
Poly won't fit in the stock mount because it isn't designed for the rib. I was suggesting to use the stock bracket for hole spacing and location, then you would be able to use them or aftermarket mounts.
I have had poly on the fronts of our seasonal cars for years with no problems, can't see the rear being any different.
Keep in mind though that most, not all, but most Fiero enthusiasts say to keep the front suspension stiffer than the back... otherwise instead of balancing out the suspension (getting rid of the built-in understeer), unwanted oversteer becomes more of an issue. Therefore, on the front sway bar I've used poly bushings and zero-lash end links, whereas on the back I've used all rubber.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-08-2016).]
In my case, the larger sway bar, poly bushings and end links were put up front and the smaller front bar to the rear. That keeps the front to rear pitch somewhat similar but reduces the yaw and roll characteristics. As it sits right now, the 86 with the big oversize sway bar on the front and nothing on the rear just doesn't feel as secure in hard cornering as my 87 with just a stock sway bar on the front.
In my case, the larger sway bar, poly bushings and end links were put up front and the smaller front bar to the rear. That keeps the front to rear pitch somewhat similar but reduces the yaw and roll characteristics.
Sure, that works too. In my case (with the '84), the front and rear sway bars themselves were basically identical, so I had to make a difference some other way.
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
Filmed from my 87GT with stock suspension.
I could never be a passenger in your car... you often follow much too close! I always abide by the Two-Second Rule.
Hey, now that looks fun. All the more reason to upgrade the sway bars. We hope to join the Georgia Fiero Club again this fall with new bars installed. You really put on a nice cruise last September on the Tail of the Dragon. Love those NC, TN and GA hills.
You guys are right, larger in front and smaller in back seems to be the consensus as I dug back thru the archives here. All sorts of combos, but the theme stays the same.
Good idea with the softer bushings in back to lessen the effect of same size bars (front/back) Patrick. Sounds like that combo worked nice on the track with your '84. I have yet to measure the '87GT bar to see what I have. Also need to measure the spare bar I have, can't remember well, but think it's off an '86GT. I'll measure and report back.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 04-08-2016).]
Good idea with the softer bushings in back to lessen the effect of same size bars (front/back) Patrick. Sounds like that combo worked nice on the track with your '84.
Yes, I was very pleased with how the '84 handled at autocross (before I changed over to driving my Formula).
Just to clarify, there's a slight bit of difference in the diameters of the two sway bars on my '84. I had numerous front sway bars here off of various '84-'87 Fieros, and there was one that was a tiny bit thicker. I have no idea for sure which Fiero it was off of originally (I suspect it was from my '84 SE parts car), but anyways, I installed it on the front of the '84 and put the slightly thinner sway bar on the back. Worked out very well.
On my Formula (which of course came from the factory with a rear sway bar), I did the same thing with poly bushings and zero-lash end links in the front, and rubber everything in the back.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-08-2016).]
Patrick, I understand. I couldn't ride with me under those conditions, either. Even at a safer distance.
I think all stock 85-87 front bars are the same diameter at around .875" or 23mm. I've lost my vernier calipers so to verify I had a larger bar on the front of the 86, I used an adjustable wrench and fit over the bar that's going on the rear. I then tried to fit that measurement onto the front bar and it was way too small, so I know the front bar has been upgraded. Poly bushings on the front, too. NOISY poly bushings at parking lot speeds.
FieroChild once told some of us that when adding a rear bar to a pre-88, that one shouldn't go out and drive the curves the way they did before the bar. It changes the handling and you should work your way up. I intend to get mine into a big empty parking lot and see what the breakaway point is before I take it into the mountains. He related how he put a matching bar on the back and in short order left the track.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 04-08-2016).]
FieroChild once told some of us that when adding a rear bar to a pre-88, that one shouldn't go out and drive the curves the way they did before the bar. It changes the handling and you should work your way up. I intend to get mine into a big empty parking lot and see what the breakaway point is before I take it into the mountains. He related how he put a matching bar on the back and in short order left the track.
My experience with my '84 is that prior to installing the rear sway bar, the car would want to "plow" into the corners at autocross. In other words, the car would want to continue to go relatively straight despite the steering wheel being cranked. Typical understeer. After adding a front sway bar to the back, the car would have much more of a tendency to snap the rear end around if I wasn't careful. Typical oversteer. I learned to hit the brakes before entering a corner. Even if I felt I was still going too fast, I just went with it. The worst that would happen is that I would four-wheel drift sideways. At least I was still more or less under control. Applying brakes while in the corner is the best way to spin the car... not what you wish to do.
Correct. Brakes and curves don't go together. I did a Professional Driving Xperience (PDX) at Road Atlanta, put on by SCCA and with a SCCA driver riding passenger as my instructor. In the pre-track class, they made it very clear that "If you have enough traction to brake, you have enough traction to steer." With the Fiero, a quick release of the accelerator in a sharp turn, a normal reaction when the front begins to plow, can result in snap steer and you'll probably still leave the road on the same side, except backwards. Brake hard before the curve, accelerate out of the apex.
I bought bolts in 4, 4.5, and 5 inch lengths to be able to position the sway bar parallel with the control arm, but I've found that I can't get a swaybar bushing underneath the emergency brake cable, whether I use the rear factory hole or my drilled center hole. Even if the cable was removed, I couldn't put it back after the bolt and bushing were installed. The center drilled hole has been slotted but a bolt can't be inserted without disconnecting the axle. I could insert the bolt upward and place a lock washer and lock nut at the top, but doing that would require that the length of the bolt be very carefully determined and maybe even the end ground down so that it doesn't get into the CV boot.
I think the bar would need to be hung by the end links in order to locate the bushing mounts properly.
To put the bolt in how about disconnecting the lower ball joint at knuckle then inserting? Gives swing to the control arm with no need to realign rear suspension.
Good idea to hang bar from links to find mount position. Probably should also do with suspension loaded.
[This message has been edited by Kevin87FieroGT (edited 04-09-2016).]
That would clear the axle boot. Not sure if it would solve my cable problem, though. I don't seem to have the clearance Petrick has.
The suspension would definitely need to be loaded and rolled after the bolt and top bushing were installed to settle the suspension before hanging the bar or just supported under the very outer ends of the control arms by stands.
We can walk this through in this thread so don't wait on me. After a day of laying on a my padded creeper my hip bones and shoulder blades are so sore that even our Beauty Rest hurts me. It may be weeks before I get it worked out and installed.
I've found that I can't get a swaybar bushing underneath the emergency brake cable, whether I use the rear factory hole or my drilled center hole. Even if the cable was removed, I couldn't put it back after the bolt and bushing were installed.
I don't understand why you're having that clearance issue with the emergency brake cable. Either I live a charmed life , or the factory holes in the '84 rear LCA are positioned a little differently than the one's in the '86 arms.
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
I could insert the bolt upward and place a lock washer and lock nut at the top...
No, you don't want to do that. There's gotta be a way to have the end-link bolts positioned for proper clearance... and pointing down.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-09-2016).]
Charlie, curiosity got the best of me... so I ventured into the wilds of my backyard and uncovered my '84 parts car to have a look at a rear LCA. I have to assume that these are the same as the ones on my driveable '84 (which wasn't as easy to go look at with wheels on etc).
I strongly suspect I used hole "A" (which I drilled out a bit larger) that can be seen in these two images... the first one taken from the front and the second one taken from the rear.
So, if you can tell... does this LCA (and/or the location of the holes) look just like the ones on your '86?
We can walk this through in this thread so don't wait on me. After a day of laying on a my padded creeper my hip bones and shoulder blades are so sore that even our Beauty Rest hurts me. It may be weeks before I get it worked out and installed.
By popular Pennocks opinion, all rear LCA's are the same. When mounting the bar at the rear of the cradle, A nor B can be used. Only A can be used when mounting at the front as you did. B has tf he wrong spacing for a stock front bar. The Addco was custom made to the width of B. The Ebrake cable lays right down against hole A on my car. It was damaged a bit in the accident. I'll check clearance on the 87 one day next week.
Second picture in the depression just above hole A is where the extra hole is drilled ane the end link mounted. The cable passes right over it, too. Maybe Kevin is onto something by separating the ball joint, then force the bolt and top bushing back up.
Maybe Kevin is onto something by separating the ball joint, then force the bolt and top bushing back up.
Yeah, but why is your application so "special" that you need to do this? I sure as heck didn't need to be popping ball joints to install my end-link bolts from the top.
If the clearance issue you have is between the e-brake cable and the head of the end-link bolt... couldn't you temporarily disconnect the e-brake cable from the caliper, install the end-link bolt, snug the end-link down (as this pulls the bolt head down closer to the LCR, and then re-connect the e-brake cable to the caliper?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-09-2016).]
It's another option. Maybe with all these suggestions we will answer all future questions for anyone contemplating a rear bar install.IF they will just use the SEARCH function!
That sounds reasonable. The 4-41/2" and maybe 5" bolt is a long one for sure. If it's the parking brake cable bracket good luck bending it out of the way. Can only imagine it would have limited travel and in the end you still want the cable to run somewhat straight to the parking brake arm.
As you guys say, try to keep the nut on the bottom. That way once the links are in you can trim off some of the excess bolt for a cleaner install Sure leave 1/2-3/4" length past nut to help with reinstall if needed and some bushing compression. On the hex head end you might think about shaving some off the bushing to give more clearance from the boot and possibly the brake cable.
On the hex head end you might think about shaving some off the bushing to give more clearance from the boot and possibly the brake cable.
Prior to doing my own installation, I had read here of the possible need to make the very top end-link bushing thinner for clearance purposes. I don't know why I lucked out, but for whatever reason I had plenty of room without any modification of the top bushing (which can be easily seen in my picture from the 1st page).
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:
If all '84-'87 rear lower control arms are reportedly the same, and all transplanted front sway bars basically have the same dimensions, why would I have so much room to spare whereas other people seem to need to shave the top end-link bushings etc. What's different?
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-10-2016).]
After I get the 3rd hole drilled in the right control arm, I'll install the wheel and put the car up on ramps so the suspension is loaded. We'll see if that will give some cable clearance. Sometimes when cutting cast rubber, or in this case poly, you create small irregularities in the surface that can create a starting point for cracks when it's put under pressure.
Rubber end link bushings tend to crush more than poly, at least easier to crush. That might make up to as much as a 1/4" for the upper. Though I'm not saying it makes it any better installing the bolt, only for clearance on the boot and cable.
In the past I read all of the rear swaybar topics but it is some time ago, this is what I remember: The 84 front swaybar was a little bigger than the later years 24mm versus 23mm. How much difference does that make ? But I decided to put an 84 swaybar on the front and save my front 87 swaybar for the rear (it is not yet installed)
I can imagine using rubber on the back reduces direct impact of the swaybar. But I also guess stiffer springs rule out some of the effect of the swaybars. It is all about the total suspension package I guess to which effect it has, swaybars, springs, shocks and bushings...
I've been working on the installation as time has permitted. I just thought I would wait until I had enough together to not have the process fractured throughout the thread. Maybe afterward, I'll condense it and do a How-To thread.
After getting the matching hole drilled in the center of the right control arm I loaded the suspension by using a floor jack under the control arm. I placed a bushing and its washer on top of the control arm and inserted the 3/8 bolt down through everything. Some CV boots can be in the way of inserting the bolt, but that can be remedied by slotting the hole front-to-back to allow it to go in at an angle. No need to separate the ball joint.
I used a 4 1/2 x 3/8 bolt. A 3 3/4 bolt might work, but I could only find 1 in my bins, so I stuck with the 4 1/2 inch. Once I had it through the control arm, I wanted to check clearance between the CV boot and the head of the bolt, under real conditions. Also, not having a spacer sleeve, I wanted to be sure I could get full crush. This required 4 3/8 flat washers to act as the spacer sleeve. Lots of room between the top of the bolt and the CV boots.
Once the sway bar is installed to the end link, the number of washers may have to be changed, or even relocated to the bottom end of the bolt in order to make the swaybar end paddles parallel with the control arm.
Because I already have holes drilled in the cradle where the previous bar was mounted, I searched my bolt bin and found bolts that worked in the existing holes. These are M8 bolts, and have the washer attached. So, to get the sway bar mounted to the cradle, I used 4 of these bolts, trial fitted and in my case, they don't interfere with anything inside the cradle, so I set up the poly bushings and offered the bar up to the cradle.
As I tightened the bushing bolts, I began to see a problem. The bar encounters interference on each side of the cradle at this point.
Right side cradle flange,
Left side flange,
And center against the crossmember.
My first thought was to place washers between the bushing mount and cradle, but that wouldn't allow the bushing to be captured against the cradle. Patrick's Plate to the rescue. So I was off to the machine shop to have a couple of 3/8th custom spacer plates made. A little variation of Patrick's, since I'm simply slotting through the plates to allow me to bolt into the existing holes in the cradle. Once I have verified everything, future plates will be further modified to have studs welded in, allowing them to be welded to the cradle and eliminating the need for drilling and tapping.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 04-18-2016).]
I haven't been driving my '84 duke since I got my Formula a couple of years ago. I should probably sell it, but after spending all the time I did getting the front and rear suspension just how I wanted... I keep looking for excuses not to sell it. I tell myself that it would be a good Fiero to drop a V8 into etc. Because if I were to sell it, no one would appreciate (and/or pay) for the fact that its suspension is a whole lot better than what came on an original '84.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is... after all this work, you'll be pleased with how the car handles.
I have the bar hung by the end links and supported in the center with a jack. Just waiting on the spacer plates which should be ready Wednesday.
I've often heard that when ueing a stock sway bar that it should always be mounted with the same side up as the original application. For that reason I just looked back at Patrick's and saw it is upside down . The way to tell is by the flat end on the paddle is the driver's side.
I've often heard that when ueing a stock sway bar that it should always be mounted with the same side up as the original application.
Well sure, when re-installing a sway bar in it's original location, you don't want to mount the bar "upside down" and have the arms and end "paddles" at the wrong angle.
quote
Originally posted by fierofool:
For that reason I just looked back at Patrick's and saw it is upside down.
The sway bar may be flipped over in my application (and I think I've actually mentioned that in numerous threads) because it's mounted at the front of the cradle, but the bar fits and works perfectly in this orientation there.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 04-19-2016).]
I don't know which is right or wrong, because I don't know the dynamics of sway bars. They are capable of being mounted either way, whether a front cradle mount or rear mount. The stock bar has a definite bend in each end. With the bar flat on the ground, the ends turn downward. What it accomplishes, I don't know but with the suspension pushing up on it, it would be stronger, I would think because the force is against the curve of the bar rather than with it. It might make a big difference in competition driving, but in our application, it probably isn't that important.
I first heard it from FieroChild who raced his 86GT, then I heard it from Aerodonamic. I think he got it from FieroChild. I've even seen it referenced on PFF but I don't remember the consensus of the discussion.
But I'm from the South. You know we're all Bass-Ackwards.
[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 04-18-2016).]
It doesn't matter in the slightest; when one end of the bar is trying to go up, the other is trying to go down. Whatever way fits the best (no bind, no contact) is the right way.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 04-19-2016).]
I always abide by the 
, or the factory holes in the '84 rear LCA are positioned a little differently than the one's in the '86 arms.
I sure as heck didn't need to be popping ball joints to install my end-link bolts from the top. 
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Because if I were to sell it, no one would appreciate (and/or pay) for the fact that its suspension is a whole lot better than what came on an original '84. 
