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F23 Case Splitters; where do I find this seal? by 1986 Fiero GT
Started on: 03-03-2016 01:50 AM
Replies: 18 (1103 views)
Last post by: 1986 Fiero GT on 03-20-2016 07:33 PM
1986 Fiero GT
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Report this Post03-03-2016 01:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm planning on splitting the case of my F23 to install an LSD in it. I found new diff carrier bearings, all of the tools that I'll need and detailed instructions for disassembly and reassembly. I'm worried that I can't seem to find new seals for the intermediate shaft. I found the plastic oil guide, but I can't find the actual seal or the cap that goes into the bellhousing right behind the flywheel. Anybody have any part numbers or links? Google hasn't turned up a whole bunch other than the oil guide part number. Thanks...
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Report this Post03-03-2016 05:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've been digging non-stop for about three days now. For what it's worth, I found this:



Below the image was the list of part numbers. Looks like I'm looking for:

Oil Guide - 26 - 09120609 - FUNNEL,TRANS LUB(TO INTERIM SHAFT)(4.422) (Service Lane Part)
Intermediate Shaft Seal Plug - 27 - 09120610 - PLUG,RR LUBE(4.349) (Service Lane Part)

I think I can find the oil guide even though it looks like I'll pay a significantly inflated price. The seal plug has been long discontinued and I can't seem to find one of them. There's a fellow on eBay selling bearing kits with this seal; but I don't really need the whole set. Just the diff carrier bearings and the seal...
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Report this Post03-03-2016 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I always get the new seals right from the dealer only place I have been able to find them
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1986 Fiero GT
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Report this Post03-03-2016 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FIEROFLYER:

I always get the new seals right from the dealer only place I have been able to find them


...even the discontinued from GM intermediate shaft seal plug? Hmm. Guess I have a few phone calls to make tomorrow.

Also; does this mean you've split F23s? Do you replace the oil guide on the intermediate shaft? The reassembly manual that I have from AllData says to replace it.

[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 03-03-2016).]

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Report this Post03-03-2016 09:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

1986 Fiero GT

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Okay. So, for whatever reason; I removed the leading '0' from those part numbers and I was able to find them on GMPartsDirect. What the heck?
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Report this Post03-04-2016 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I always just reused the oil guide. It's just a molded piece of plastic that doesn't really look like anything would easily fail.
Depending on how carefully you get the cap off, you may nick the guide though.
I always bought the seal from the dealer, but it's been a few years since then.

Which LSD are you going with?

I have the one from OBX and it takes a bit of work to make it fit since its a bit larger than the stock diff and needs some cleaning up.

There's also a really good series of videos on YouTube showing the breakdown of the F23, all in German for Opel but still useful.

Ill try to find it.
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1986 Fiero GT
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Report this Post03-04-2016 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ordered the OBX diff. I know about the cleanup procedure and the washer inspection/replacement.

There are clearance issues inside of the case with the diff?
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Report this Post03-04-2016 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It might depend on how your shims work out but I had to grind some casing on the side closest towards the input shaft. I also had to open up the speedo ring to fit around the OBX unit.
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Report this Post03-05-2016 12:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Interesting. I'm hoping to get the diff by the end of next week so I should be able to find out soon enough.

I'm worried about pressing off the speedo reluctor ring without damaging it. Should I be? How did you go about it?
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Report this Post03-06-2016 01:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No need to worry. I think I just pried it off carefully with a big screwdriver. Comes off pretty easy iirc.
Getting it over the LSD was a lot of grinding, test fit, grind some more etc. once it was the right size I gently went around the ring tapping it into place with a hammer since I didn't have anthing that would work in my press. It's been in my daily driver behind a 3800SC1 for 3 years now without any issue.
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Report this Post03-15-2016 11:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by D_sensitized:

It's been in my daily driver behind a 3800SC1 for 3 years now without any issue.


Did you have issues with the axles fitting inside of the outputs after you pressed on the carrier bearings? I've read about the older units having issues with that. I'm not super worried.

Did you have to machine the non-gear side of the casing back to allow bearing clearance? Apparently some guys were finding they needed a -.004" or so shim (clearly impossible), so they actually had the face machined back to allow for that. Rather not have to mess with that, but I guess it depends on how my shims work out.

You were right about the reluctor ring. Came right off with a large screwdriver. Wasn't that tight at all.

I'm totally reusing the final drive bolts, with red Loctite. I just need to finish cleaning up the inside of the casting and chamfer the interior of the axle gears so the axles will release.

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Report this Post03-16-2016 06:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mcguiver3Send a Private Message to mcguiver3Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
There was also a potential problem with the gears assembled backwards from the factory on some units.
There was a post including this somewhere a while back.
I inspected mine when it arrived and the whole thing is still a mystery to me.
I have the intention of disassembling mine next winter and look at the washers to see if mine is reversed.
I believe I have them in correctly but the unit appears to be slipping a bit on launch.
The car is a dedicated autocrosser and subjected to hard starts regularly.
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1986 Fiero GT
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Report this Post03-16-2016 01:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Right. Need to make sure the axle gears are oriented properly so they thrust outward when you pin the gas. If they're backwards, they'll just crush the belleville washers and even allow spin/slip if there's enough damage.

I'm hoping for the best, but we'll see.
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Report this Post03-16-2016 02:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I posted this on Youtube a while back:

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Report this Post03-16-2016 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had no problems getting the axles in.

I read some people needing to machine a bit too, but I never had to machine anything on mine.

Nice video, RWDPLZ, much better to have an english one.

Here is the series I had found when I did mine, not in english though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKQItVy6Nz4

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Report this Post03-18-2016 05:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by D_sensitized:

I had no problems getting the axles in.

I read some people needing to machine a bit too, but I never had to machine anything on mine.


These are great things. Thanks for answering my questions. One more; did you reuse the final drive gear bolts? They're not torque-to-yield fasteners and they're only torqued to 68lbs, so I don't see why I can't just clean them up well and apply some fresh red Loctite.


 
quote
Originally posted by RWDPLZ:

I posted this on Youtube a while back:



That's awesome. Always nice having a video to back up the guides. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 03-19-2016).]

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1986 Fiero GT
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Report this Post03-20-2016 12:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I brought that diff and my Dremel to work so that I could spend a few hours cleaning it up. Wasn't too bad. I guess I'm pretty familiar with helical gear-type LSDs now.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Here's the non-drive half of the housing with the left knife edge 'broken' or rounded-over. The casting is only mediocre as far as surface quality goes. There aren't any pinholes or anything I can see in the casting that worry me, I just don't want tiny chunks breaking off and grinding around my trans for how ever many miles.



Here's one of the axle gears. That 'pocket' formed behind the splines is where the retention clips in the axles engage. See how it's square to the spline surface? If you just throw the gears in like that and try to remove an axle after you've installed it, the clips won't compress and you're pretty much screwed. It won't come back out.



The solution? Chamfer those beaches.



That's really all you've got to do until you measure for shims. Some people have discovered that depending on how their carrier bearing preload shims measure out, they need to clearance the inside of the trans housing or even have a few thousands machined off of one of the surfaces as their measured shim ended up negative. Hope to not have to deal with that. Planning on getting everything back together tomorrow. Before I torque the housing bolts back down with red Loctite, I'll soak everything in some solvent and scrub everything. Reassemble with some fresh ATF and reassemble the transmission, given I can come up with some shims.



I don't really know exactly what that black schmutz is all over the damn thing. I think it's just dried machine oil from being in a shipping container for weeks across the salty ocean. Who knows? It's coming off tomorrow.

EDIT:

If you couldn't tell from some of the pictures, there's a lot of orange dust all over the housings. It's from my orange Dremel bits. These castings absolutely chewed through those bits. I burned up four doing this. Three 3/8" cone and one 5/8" cylinder. It was 20-1" long surfaces from which I took off maybe .007". I'm okay with this.

[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 03-20-2016).]

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Report this Post03-20-2016 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for D_sensitizedSend a Private Message to D_sensitizedEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I reused those bolts too.
Yeah, it takes forever to work that hard metal. Yours looks more thorough than mine, but I didn't have a Drexel back then so did most of it by hand. One place I also did was the ends of all the gears and the surfaces they bear on. Probably doesn't matter much but mine were pretty rough.
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Report this Post03-20-2016 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1986 Fiero GTSend a Private Message to 1986 Fiero GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by D_sensitized:

I reused those bolts too.
Yeah, it takes forever to work that hard metal. Yours looks more thorough than mine, but I didn't have a Drexel back then so did most of it by hand. One place I also did was the ends of all the gears and the surfaces they bear on. Probably doesn't matter much but mine were pretty rough.


Yea, I noticed those surfaces weren't machined as well, but I don't think they take as much pressure as the axle gears, for example. Those have nice, smooth finish machined thrust surfaces to mate with the housing's nice, smooth faces. i thought about cleaning them up and still may while everything is still apart.
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