First let me introduce myself, name is Mike and I live in the Houston area (35 miles west of it and in a small town) and secondly thank you Cliff for having such a site with a great deal of information for the fiero)
I have a 85 Fiero with a countach body on it, this is my dream car and I want to make it fast. This is my 5th "fiero" and the first with a rebody . Currently has a v6 (with a carb) s10 motor and doesn't run and the manual stock fiero trans.
I watched several videos of fieros with the northstar v8 in them and from my reading on here this engine will bolt directly to the fiero manual trans with no adapter plate needed.
My questions are 1. What year or years northstar are people using? 2. Are you using the original ecu from that engine in place of the fiero ecu? 3. Is there a wiring kit out there for the northstar? I read from one member there is a wiring "kit" but after searching I can't find it 4. Using the stock trans I should be able to retain the original axles? Any advice would be appreciated , I will buy the engine soon as I know which one to get (I think "vin 9" is the correct one ? Soon as I know this information i will create a construction thread from beginning to end and document it on here and with videos so others that wish to do the same can. I want to add to the community here and it's nice to be here.
Do your homework on all the issues Northstars have.
If you are still interested in using a Northstar I strongly suggest ARP head studs, head gaskets, checking the heads for cracks & trueness and re-sealing the block prior to installation.
I've had the pleasure of doing this to Northstars with as low as 38,000 miles.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-20-2015).]
You might try getting a hold of motoracer838. His name is Joe. He had a Northstar in a Fiero a while back along with the Caddi trans I believe. Judging by your user name, you might have interest in something else he was in to.
Originally posted by countachmike: 1. What year or years northstar are people using? 2. Are you using the original ecu from that engine in place of the fiero ecu? 3. Is there a wiring kit out there for the northstar? I read from one member there is a wiring "kit" but after searching I can't find it 4. Using the stock trans I should be able to retain the original axles?
1) Most all years have been used. Early engines had a particular issue with the block material at a couple of the head bolts, that would cause the bolts to loosen and coolant leaking. A TSB was issued for how to repair this with a timesert. Later model engines had the manufacturing defect resolved. If you get an earlier block, make sure this has been fixed. Even with ARP bolts, it will still be an issue if the proper repair wasn't done.
2) Depending on the year of the engine, and what features you want, various options for an ECU are possible, from the GM 7730 ECM, LS1 ECM, the ECM that came with the engine, or aftermarket. THe stock Fiero ECU cannot be used.
3) I don't know of any wiring kits for the Fiero, for a Northstar. It is not difficult to mate the Fiero harness and the Northstar harness together, to work properly in a Fiero though.
4) If you are referring to using a stock Fiero manual transmission, yes the axles will be the same length, as long as you don't alter the position of the transmission. If you are referring to the automatic, the Fiero auto shouldn't be mated to a Northstar, as it's quite weak. The 4t80 that comes with the Northstar can be used instead, but you will need different axles, IIRC.
There are plenty of Northstar swaps on the forum, so just search and do your research, and you should be fine.
1) Most all years have been used. Early engines had a particular issue with the block material at a couple of the head bolts, that would cause the bolts to loosen and coolant leaking. A TSB was issued for how to repair this with a timesert. Later model engines had the manufacturing defect resolved. If you get an earlier block, make sure this has been fixed. Even with ARP bolts, it will still be an issue if the proper repair wasn't done.
2) Depending on the year of the engine, and what features you want, various options for an ECU are possible, from the GM 7730 ECM, LS1 ECM, the ECM that came with the engine, or aftermarket. THe stock Fiero ECU cannot be used.
3) I don't know of any wiring kits for the Fiero, for a Northstar. It is not difficult to mate the Fiero harness and the Northstar harness together, to work properly in a Fiero though.
4) If you are referring to using a stock Fiero manual transmission, yes the axles will be the same length, as long as you don't alter the position of the transmission. If you are referring to the automatic, the Fiero auto shouldn't be mated to a Northstar, as it's quite weak. The 4t80 that comes with the Northstar can be used instead, but you will need different axles, IIRC.
There are plenty of Northstar swaps on the forum, so just search and do your research, and you should be fine.
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:
Do your homework on all the issues Northstars have.
If you are still interested in using a Northstar I strongly suggest ARP head studs, head gaskets, checking the heads for cracks & trueness and re-sealing the block prior to installation.
I've had the pleasure of doing this to Northstars with as low as 38,000 miles.
No bolts.... STUDS
Bolts should never be used in aluminum engine blocks. Another GM "F"up. And GM only "improved" of the poor design, not fixed it.
Waaaay to many people with Fieros put waaaay too much faith in a design that even Cadillac dealers hate and I still don't know why.
There are much better choices out there but to each their own. As for me, I like to build something and enjoy it. Not build it and constantly work on it or repair it.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: No bolts.... STUDS
Bolts should never be used in aluminum engine blocks. Another GM "F"up. And GM only "improved" of the poor design, not fixed it.
Waaaay to many people with Fieros put waaaay too much faith in a design that even Cadillac dealers hate and I still don't know why.
There are much better choices out there but to each their own. As for me, I like to build something and enjoy it. Not build it and constantly work on it or repair it.
Quit with your incessant whining about the Northstar already. It's really exhausting, and you are not providing any helpful information to anyone, by going into every N* thread on the forum and complaining about the head bolt issue (which had nothing at all to do with the fact that it was using bolts instead of studs, but was a manufacturing defect in the block itself).
I guess you better get rid of your Fiero then. GM dealers hate them too. And as the saying goes, "if you want to learn how to be a mechanic, buy a Fiero."
Originally posted by dobey: Quit with your incessant whining about the Northstar already. It's really exhausting, and you are not providing any helpful information to anyone, by going into every N* thread on the forum and complaining about the head bolt issue (which had nothing at all to do with the fact that it was using bolts instead of studs, but was a manufacturing defect in the block itself).
I guess you better get rid of your Fiero then. GM dealers hate them too. And as the saying goes, "if you want to learn how to be a mechanic, buy a Fiero."
Truth obviously hurts and by advising people to the facts that the Northstar is a very unreliable money pit, I am be "helpful". Hell, the 2.8-V6 is a better platform.
And if you ever want to put your mechanical skills against mine, bring your cash.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-20-2015).]
I'll give it a go... 1) I believe the majority have been 95-99 but earlier and later years have been used (mine is a 1999 4.0L N* (Olds Aurora) with vin 9 intake cams and chrfab springs/retainers (new rpm redline 8,500) 2) I'm using the Holley Dominator EFI ecu. Works well for me. I have not tried other ecu's but I suspect the LS1 ecu that Shelby was using with my motor would have been even better. 3) I bought the Dominator through chrfab.com and Allen had a wiring harness for the N* made to the lengths that I needed for my install. It was very helpful. 4) I decided to use the stock 5speed manual transmission. In my car (originally an 88 4cyl coupe) it was an Isuzu. While it is the least desirable it is holding up well so far. Stock axles are fine as long as the trans is in its stock location. Some minor adjustments might be ok but I left it alone and modified my passenger side strut tower to fit the engine. In an 85, that might not be necessary.
I think most are aware of the head bolt issues and there are plenty of threads detailing the repairs required. You can decide whether or not your interested in dealing with it. I was lucky that I ended up with new in crate engine and won't (shouldn't) see any issues for years into the future.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do. I think most agree that the N* sounds better and is a quality power plant but that the 3800SC is cheaper and easier to install with more power available with mods.
I personally love how my car drives with my baby N*.
This is the only thing you've said in this thread that approaches being a fact:
quote
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT:
No bolts.... STUDS
Bolts should never be used in aluminum engine blocks.
FACT: GM has built millions of aluminum block LS engines with head bolts.
FACT: Steel inserts in a Northstar block result in a permanent fix.
FACT: For the MY 2005 GM eliminated the head bolt thread problem by changing the Northstar head bolt thread pitch from 11x1.5 to 11x2.0, matching the LS engines.
The rest of what you've said is opinion... and lousy opinion at that.
quote
Originally posted by countachmike:
My questions are 1. What year or years northstar are people using?
The most commonly used engines are '93-'99. The most difficult are '00-'04. The most rarely used are '05+ I have not heard of a VVT RWD Northstar being used in a Fiero. Yet.
2. Are you using the original ecu from that engine in place of the fiero ecu?
It's possible to use the original ECU in a swap application, but that gets harder when using a manual transmission vice the Caddy automatic. Other options for '93-'99 engines include the OBDI 7730 computer and the OBDII Shelby Series 1 computer. I'm using the Shelby computer The '00-'04 engines use a unique trigger wheel. There are no other factory computers that operate that engine. The '05+ Northstars use the 58x trigger wheel that is now common to GM engines across the product line. Many many aftermarket computers can use this wheel.
All epochs of engines can be run with aftermarket computers. See www.chrfab.com for some of the options.
3. Is there a wiring kit out there for the northstar? I read from one member there is a wiring "kit" but after searching I can't find it
No, but it's not hard. If your Countache kit is stretched, a Fiero based wiring kit wouldn't work well anyway.
4. Using the stock trans I should be able to retain the original axles?
Stock Fiero trans? Yes, you can use the original axles.
Any advice would be appreciated , I will buy the engine soon as I know which one to get (I think "vin 9" is the correct one ?
VIN 9 is the L37 engine, which is the high horsepower front wheel drive option.
This is the only thing you've said in this thread that approaches being a fact:
FACT: GM has built millions of aluminum block LS engines with head bolts.
FACT: Steel inserts in a Northstar block result in a permanent fix.
FACT: For the MY 2005 GM eliminated the head bolt thread problem by changing the Northstar head bolt thread pitch from 11x1.5 to 11x2.0, matching the LS engines.
The rest of what you've said is opinion... and lousy opinion at that.
.
Is that a fact or just your opinion?
What about the 3 piece blocks with NO gaskets in between that leak like a sieve? Must be just another "opinion" huh?
I've owned a several in my days of various years, all were big POS.
This was my last..... My very last:
The problem I see here is someone says something and everyone else must agree with them, no matter how wrong.
I don't pat people on the back just to make them feel good if I know there are issues or better ways. I present to them the "other" side when I know there is one and let them decide. If they choose to ignore it and complain later, at least I know I warned them and sometimes will be right there to say "I told you so".
What do you get out of sugar-coating something?
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-20-2015).]
Truth obviously hurts and by advising people to the facts that the Northstar is a very unreliable money pit, I am be "helpful". Hell, the 2.8-V6 is a better platform.
And if you ever want to put your mechanical skills against mine, bring your cash.
LOL. If you want to talk facts, then stop trying to push your opinions on others, and stick to the facts. Also, not helpful are ad hominem attacks, which you seem to like to do as well.
Fact: Early Northstar blocks had a manufacturing defect in the block, for the head bolt threads, which only becomes an issue generally around the 100-120K miles mark, and for which a TSB was issued to remedy the defect through the use of a timesert, and which was remedied in manufacturing in later engine blocks.
Opinions: Northstars are a junk money pit. Using head bolts with aluminum heads is "a bad design." Northstar engines need excessive maintenance and repair.
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: I'll tell you what.....
I have stated facts of what makes the Northstar a poor chioce. Other than the horsepower over the 2.8L, what makes them so good???
You did not state facts. You regurgitated your opinion as if it were fact.
I never said whether the Northstar was a good choice or not. I am not making any such claim on whether it is good or bad. I merely stated facts and pointed the OP in a direction to further his own knowledge and understanding, so that he can make his own choices about what he thinks is good or bad in terms of an engine swap.
There are many reasons to choose a Northstar for an engine swap, just as there are many reasons to choose any engine, be it a rebuilt 2.8, Northstar, SBC, LSx, or a BMW V12. They all have advantages and disadvantages. It's up to the person doing the swap to decide what they want, not you.
You did not state facts. You regurgitated your opinion as if it were fact.
I never said whether the Northstar was a good choice or not. I am not making any such claim on whether it is good or bad. I merely stated facts and pointed the OP in a direction to further his own knowledge and understanding, so that he can make his own choices about what he thinks is good or bad in terms of an engine swap.
There are many reasons to choose a Northstar for an engine swap, just as there are many reasons to choose any engine, be it a rebuilt 2.8, Northstar, SBC, LSx, or a BMW V12. They all have advantages and disadvantages. It's up to the person doing the swap to decide what they want, not you.
Plenty of BS out of you and still nothing about what makes a Northstar so good. Nothing about the leaky 3 piece blocks either. All I see is you bashing me for pointing out the not so great side of the Northstar.
I will also tell you that Caddy mechanics call a Northstar a "Quad Whore times 2". Hmmmm.... I wonder why?
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-20-2015).]
Originally posted by Thunderstruck GT: Plenty of BS out of you and still nothing about what makes a Northstar so good. All I see is you bashing me for pointing out the not so great side of the Northstar.
I will also tell you that Caddy mechanics call a Northstar a "Quad Whore times 2". Hmmmm.... I wonder why?
Plenty of BS out of you, and you still keep assuming I'm somehow stating a Northstar is good. I am making no such claims. Rather, unlike you, I have simply stated actual facts.
I'm not bashing you for pointing the not so great side of the Northstar. I'm pointing out how much of an asshat you are being by constantly espousing your opinion on various engines that you personally dislike, every time someone makes a thread about them on this forum, and then trying to claim your opinion is fact, and that anyone whom posts a dissenting statement to what you said, is "defending" the engines or talking about how great they are.
Fine, I'll tell you how great they are. One time I was driving along the highway and I saw a Northstar pulling a baby out of a burning Fiero. That Northstar should run for President, it's so great.
And your statement clearly shows the level of intellect in the Caddy mechanics you're reciting. I guess they didn't have enough work to do, since they had so much time to ***** about Northstars and Quad4s.
I have swapped an 06 N* into an 85 using the stock caddy 06 ecm as tuned by Sinister Performance. I also swapped in the stock caddy transmission and torque convertor which I wasn't so thrilled with. It seemed a bit slack at the bottom end but mister that thing would snap your head back when you kicked it down at cruising speeds. I think the lack of low end torque was due to the stock convertor. Now having said that I have also swapped an 02 N*/4speed muncie into a Fiero and that thing would sizzle the tires off in no time. Loads of torque. I believe Sinister can tune an 06 ecm to run with a manual trans (obviously you'd want to confirm this) and if so an 06 N* would be an awesome choice for a Countach rebody. I do believe that GM had the whole headbolt issue long since resolved by the time the 06 motors were built. The 4 speed muncie does have an issue with the clutch arm hitting the coolant crossover but that can be reolved too. IMO if you want same old same old do the 3800. Drop dead reliable and plenty of aftermarket goodies available to make skads of power. If you want wow factor to match a Countach rebody a N* is a very viable option!
If they are so good please enlighten me as to why you had to take them apart?
I've never had to "seal" an engine block of any other kind..... EVER!
To pull the crankshaft out for weight relief. Also, a rod bolt stretch gauge won't fit on half the rod bolts with the lower case half in place.
It's pretty ridiculous that a guy who builds Chevies is busting on a Northstar for leaks. LOL. A Chevy needs half a tube of RTV to seal the intake manifold. A Northstar takes a total of 4 tiny dabs.
Soo... what's in *your* engine bay?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-21-2015).]
Originally posted by Will: To pull the crankshaft out for weight relief. Also, a rod bolt stretch gauge won't fit on half the rod bolts with the lower case half in place.
It's pretty ridiculous that a guy who builds Chevies is busting on a Northstar for leaks. LOL. A Chevy needs half a tube of RTV to seal the intake manifold. A Northstar takes a total of 4 tiny dabs.
Soo... what's in *your* engine bay?
Wow, total dumbass statement.
I see why you like Northstars.
By the way, I don't buy your excuse.
[This message has been edited by Thunderstruck GT (edited 12-22-2015).]
I guess for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, the care and feeding of a Northstar might seem like a daunting task. For those that do, it shouldn't be an obstacle.
1) I'm on my 3rd N* build and I have used two 1996 Vin9's and one 1995 Vin 9 engine. I like these engines because: they bolt up to the stock Fiero trans without an adapter plate; are cheap to acquire; they start at 300HP.. What year or years northstar are people using?
2. I'm using the LS1 computer (from a 1999 Camaro with the Shelby program) with a 5 speed Getrag transmission; I'm using the 1996 PCM (Wester's Garage modification) with the 4T80e automatic. I'm using the OBD1 computer with the 1995 engine with a modified chip by Howell with the auto 4T80e trans. Are you using the original ecu from that engine in place of the fiero ecu?
3. There's a wiring harness made by Howell (for any of the early N* but running them on the OBD1 computer). There is a wiring harness for the Holley Commander and Dominator aftermarket computer by CHRF. AJ is no longer doing the Fiero N* wiring harnesses for the LS1 Computer. He's moved on to other stuff. Is there a wiring kit out there for the northstar? I read from one member there is a wiring "kit" but after searching I can't find it
4. If you are using a manual Fiero transmission then you can use the stock axels. If you are using the 4T80e, then you have to cut your Cadillac axel on each end by 3/8" and cut the slot for the retaining clip. Using the cut axels, you use the Fiero spindle on the hub side and the Cadillac tripod for the caddy side. Using the stock trans I should be able to retain the original axles?
Relative to advice: The N* is an expensive engine with more internal parts than a chev 350 so be ready to spend a little more. I would suggest putting in Norm's mega inserts and then use the stock GM bolts or aftermarket ARP studs(volkswagen). I chose to use the ARP studs. Doing the inserts eliminates any future issues with regard to a pulling fastener. The N* gets 28-29 mpg in my automatic on the freeway so its a great commuter for a V8. CHRF also has reground cams and valve springs if you want to get into more Naturally aspirated power and higher revs. I'm using his mild 272 cams on the LS1. Regarding exhaust and the trunk of the fiero, my manual trans has the full trunk with my own headers. My autos have the trunk cut short using the GM header and crossover pipe and downpipe.
Bottom line, I think you will like the smooth power that keeps pulling and pulling and pulling under WOT. Its a blast.
Welcome aboard, Mike. Hope that helps some.
[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 12-24-2015).]
I know this thread is almost a century old so who knows if I'll get a reply. I'm looking for a Northstar Guru. Anyone that has swapped this engines before and might have the answers I'm looking for. So here is my situation: I have a Lamborghini Kit car on a Fiero Chassis (kinda) Its actually tube frame from the firewall back. Anyway I took a 2007 N* and transaxle including the suspension even the stock cradle from a DTS. I have the factory wire harness including the fuse box, ECM, TCM and I plan to use them. Already had them flashed to remove VATS and other stuff not needed. Anyway as I filter through the wire harness to remove the unused wires I came across the ECBM (Electronic Brake Control Module). Now there are wires that feed this module but I dont think I need any of them. But I am afraid to just start hacking the wires out without being sure it wont cause a problem. The only ones I question are the following:
Two wires for High Speed GMLAN Serial Data Bus Positive Two wires for High SPeed GMLAN Serial Data Bus Negative My RH Front Wheel Speed Sensor Signal My LH Front Wheel Speed Sensor Signal LH Speed Sensor Low Voltage Ref RH Speed Sensor Low Voltage Ref Oh and the High Speed GMLAN Serial Data Wake up
I believe the signals go into this module for the sake of ABS, Traction control, Stability Control features that wont be used on this application. I'm assuming those signals are also sent to the TCM for shift points and such but I'm not sure. Anyone have any insight on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
The 2006+ system is a network of multiple modules in the car. Fortunately this system is built from a mostly shared library of systems that GM used across their product portfolio starting in 2006. It's not as much of a red-headed step child as the older Cadillac systems. The 2006+ engines use a 58x crank trigger wheel, and are compatible on a basic level with every other GM system that uses a 58x wheel, which is everything 2006 and newer. I'm working on a Northstar swap using a 2006 Corvette ECM, but I have a manual transmission.
The ECM and TCM must be connected via the high speed GMLAN or they won't work right. Absence of the EBTCM will cause some modules to set trouble codes, but those most likely will not illuminate the check engine light because they are not related to emissions.
The body control module (BCM) is involved in starting the vehicle and interacting with the anti-theft system. You did not list that as one of the modules you'll transfer over.
You'll *probably* need (someone with) HPTuners or EFILive or similar tuning suite to modify the ECM & TCM to run without the BCM.
