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Alfa Romeo 2.5 24V V6, 6-Speed Swap by FieRomeo
Started on: 10-21-2015 05:18 PM
Replies: 20 (1364 views)
Last post by: Csjag on 10-25-2015 07:12 PM
FieRomeo
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Report this Post10-21-2015 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
(Couldn't post this in the construction zone, something about me not being authorized.)

Hi!

I'm a 17 year old guy from Sweden that loves cars and just about anything else that has an engine. It doesn't matter if it's american muscle, european or import, I love them all in different ways. One car that I love in particular is my bone stock 1988 Fiero GT 5-speed. I've owned this car for about 2 years now, and it's my pride and joy! However, I feel it could use some more power (as always ).

This is the Fiero.




So I started reading about what you guys in the states do to get your cars up to speed, and it didn't take long for me to realise that an engine-swap would be required. Now, one thing you need to know about me is that I've had a very hard time making my mind up about what engine to put in my car. I initially planned on making it a long-term project by swaping to a northstar and work on it as I got money.

Then I noticed that the cadillac 4.9 engines we're very cheap to buy in Sweden, and when i saw an ad for a low-milage 4.9 with all the accessories and the ECU for 450 dollar, I jumped on it and bought it. Then started reading about it and found out that it wasn't very mod-friendly.

So i started looking at boosting the 2.8 and 3.4 pushrod-engines and found that it would be a dead end at around 300 hp.

What i really wanted was a cheap engine that responded well to modifications, but would still fit in the Fiero engine bay. In the states, that engine is the L67 3800 SC. But I scrapped that engine for two reasons: 1. I'm not a fan of the way it sounds. And 2. There isn't a single engine avaliable anywhere in the country.

Then I thought, "Well, if none of the American engines suits my needs and wishes, maybe I can find a European powerplant for my car. What immediately came to mind was one of my favorite engines of all time. It makes good power, especsially when turboed, it sounds heavenly, it looks gorgeous and is VERY cheap around here. The engine i'm talking about is the Alfa Romeo "Busso" V6.

This is the donor car.



And this is the crown jewel. The engine!




It's an over-square, DOHC, 24V italian screamer with 190 hp at 6300 rpm, and 161 lb-ft of torque at 5000 rpm that will happily rev to 7500 rpm if you bump the revlimiter a bit. It may not look like much, but it's my first car and my dad is worried about it having "too much power" (Ehm... is there such a thing? ). The swap is however a solid base on which i can modify the engine to become a turbocharged monster OR a high compression, high rpm NA screamer.

The 2.5 has a 88 mm bore and a 68.3 mm stroke. Alfa also made a 3.0 V6 that had a 93 mm bor and 72.6 mm stroke.

My first engine layout is buying a 3.0 engine and making a 2.8 liter hybrid using the 2.5 crank with the 3.0 heads, block, cylinder liners, pistons, and rods. This would leave me with a compression ratio of 7.7:1 and awesome turbo capabilities. With 13 PSI, these engines make 330 WHEEL horsepower and 320 lb-ft of torque.


My second layout is quite similar to to the first one. It would include me buying a 3.0 engine and using the short-stroke 2.5 crank with 3.0 Block, cylinder liners, pistons. the main difference is that i would also be using the 2.5 heads and the longer 2.5 connecting rods to achive a higher compression ratio of 11.0:1. And a 93 mm bore with a 68.3 mm stroke helps giving it a redline of over 8000 rpm. I've read that they make around 250 horses and much more low-end torque than the stock 2.5.

The most cost-effective route would however be to just turbo a completly stock 2.5 or 3.0 V6. A bone stock 2.5 with 7 psi of boost puts down 300 hp to the rubber, and the same setup with a 3.0 turns out a bit over 300 hp!

The best part is that the stock ecu adapts to low boost levels so there's no need for a remap, the car remaps itself!

A supercharger isn't out of the question either...

Although this will be in the future. For now, i'm focusing on getting the 2.5 into the Fiero. It will be a snail-pace build however, as i'm the one saving money to finance this project.


I will probably make an interior-swap as well, using the dash from the Alfa.



The seats aren't too bad either, real MOMO leather.



Well, thats it for now, but I will try to update this thread whenever i get something done. But like I wote earlier, I will probably change my mind at least 100 times before something happends. I will for instance buy a 3.0 if i can find one for cheap and start there.

So long!

BTW, do any of you guys know if this swap has ever been done before?

------------------
/Morgan

1988 Alfa V6 6-speed swap in progress

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Report this Post10-21-2015 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for dobeySend a Private Message to dobeyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I don't think anyone has done that swap (at least not on this forum).

The Construction Zone doesn't get new threads. Only after your build thread is reasonably far enough along showing that you're actually going to finish the thing, does it usually get moved over.
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Report this Post10-21-2015 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As the ex-owner of a 164 Cloverleaf, this sounds awesome to me. I would personally lean towards using the 3.2l GTA motor instead of going to boost as intercoolers and mid-engine cars can be problematic *and* they get in the way of that lovely Alfa sound, but to each their own.

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Report this Post10-21-2015 07:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to PFF! You seem to have done some good research, which is a definite plus. As your first car, I would like to advise you not to over do the power for now. It's a great learning experience to do a swap and it sounds like you'll be doing something unique.... But I'd hold off on the turbo or any other mods until you've gained some experience driving. Fieros are mid engine cars that don't necessarily handle in a way that you are used to and you could get yourself into trouble quickly, especially with the extra power behind you. Once you've completed the basic swap, just enjoy it for a year or two. Use that time to do some more research on performance mods. Have fun! ... But play safe!!

[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 10-21-2015).]

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Report this Post10-21-2015 09:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for onesexyfieroSend a Private Message to onesexyfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Dear god that's going to sound good.
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Report this Post10-21-2015 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Neils88Send a Private Message to Neils88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
. (double post)

[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 10-21-2015).]

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post10-21-2015 10:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to the forum! 17 eh? It's great to see young guys take up the Fiero hobby.
I hope your Fiero performs proudly with an Italian power plant. Seems very appropriate.
Alfa Romeo fans may however, decry the installation in a mere Fiero... Lol!
Good luck! Lots of pictures will be appreciated; including Swedish scenery as well.
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Report this Post10-21-2015 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

Lots of pictures will be appreciated; including Swedish scenery women as well.


Fixed that for you.

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Report this Post10-22-2015 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cvxjetSend a Private Message to cvxjetEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
First off, that sounds like a great engine swap- I'd personally go for the larger engine WO boost, so the engine is free to respond quickly(No T-lag) and the sound is pure....One critcal thing to remember is to step up your skill with each boost in power- Get competent with what you have, then take power up a bit and re-learn the car, then take it up more....Make sure everything else is ready to handle the power...When I was a kid(the 70s), a lot of the guys would go for as much power as they could get, while ignoring the suspension and brakes- I actually went the opposite- back then I was a real odd duck- I wanted to turn, not drag....By the way, you have the better chassis, so you are halfway there on handling the power boost.
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Report this Post10-22-2015 10:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Don't dismiss the 4.9 Caddy engine.
Torque rules, and it responds well to mild boost levels.
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FieRomeo
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Report this Post10-22-2015 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We'll see what the future brings! If i can find a supercharger large enough for cheap, I will probably go that route(gotta love lagless boost! ) The 3.2 GTA engine is in essence a stroked 3.0 V6 with a more free-flowing exhaust and a bit more aggressive cams(and i think other pistons, not sure though...) So I see no point in buying a GTA engine for 3-4 times the cost of the 3.0. Plus, parts are more expensive, and i've read that you can get the same output with some basic, low cost modifications. It will not have the same potential as the 3.2, but i belive it's worth the sacrifice. And because they have a shorter stroke, you can make the 3.0 rev higher than the 3.2!

I'm actually thinking about selling the 156 and buy the 225 hp 3.0 from the start. I've restored it pretty good so far. When I bought it, it had three worn tires and one was running on the cord after the break pads had been worn to the point that they fell in on the disc, resulting in the wheel jamming! It also had electrical issues. A taillight bulb was short-circuiting, which made the fuse go. This made the stereo, foglights, brakelights, rear window heater, power windows and 12v socket malfunction. The exhaust had a big leak as well. All of those issues have been dealt with! The only things left to do is a timing belt change, some rust in the floor, and prehaps a good clean and leather conditioning. I paid 2000 swedish crowns (about 250 dollars for the whole car! Now it's worth about 15 000-20 000 crowns(1800-2400 dollars)! If i sell it and find a 3.0 alfa, i'd have Money left to finance the project!

------------------
/Morgan

1988 Alfa V6 6-speed swap in progress

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Report this Post10-22-2015 10:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FieRomeo

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quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Don't dismiss the 4.9 Caddy engine.
Torque rules, and it responds well to mild boost levels.


I won't, we'll put the caddy engine in my dads black 88 GT 5-speed!
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Report this Post10-22-2015 11:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Fixed that for you.

An explanation obliterates the art of subtlety...
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Report this Post10-22-2015 12:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

An explanation obliterates the art of subtlety...


Who's trying to be subtle?

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FieRomeo
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David Hambleton
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Report this Post10-22-2015 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FieRomeo:


I won't, we'll put the caddy engine in my dads black 88 GT 5-speed!


So there's some family history behind your interest in Fieros... What's your family Fiero story?
I wouldn't think there'd be many Fieros in Sweden with so many sporty European cars available.


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FieRomeo
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Report this Post10-22-2015 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:


So there's some family history behind your interest in Fieros... What's your family Fiero story?
I wouldn't think there'd be many Fieros in Sweden with so many sporty European cars available.



Well, we bought our first Fiero(My red one) January 2nd 2013. I was just browsing for cars and found it. The guy that was selling it was wanted 50000 SEK (6000 dollars). I had been reading about the Fiero every day for about a year, because i thought it was a really cool car! So when I saw it for sale at 6000 dollars i thought "shame that it's so expensive..." Then the price dropped to 40000 SEK (4750 dollars), and i thought "Well, maybe we could afford it...", but we kept our cool. Then, at new years eve 2012-2013, he dropped the price to 30000 SEK (3500 dollars). We didn't hesitate and called him immedietly, and two nights and 400 miles of travelling later, it was on our driveway! I had never even seen a Fiero in the flesh before, but my dad told me that i wouldn't be disappointed.

It was acually my dad who introduced me to the Fiero in the first place. He testdrove one when they were for sale in the 80's, and he says he wanted one ever since. So when he fell in love with mine, he just had to get one for himself! When he finally found his in August this year, the ad had only been out for 3 minutes until he called him and said "I'll take it!". He bought it for 15000 SEK (1800 dollars)! He's always liked the mid-engine layout in cars, one of his first cars was a Candy red Fiat X1/9.

Other than that, we've always been a motoring-crazy family (Well, at least the guys in the family.) Me, my brother and my dad used to drive our Gokarts at a local track, although there is't really time for that anymore. We are for instance rebuilding and expanding our garage at the moment, when it's done it will have a 800 sq ft area and a car lift! When it's built, i'll start swapping the engines in my car.
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Report this Post10-22-2015 09:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Good story! What happened with the X1/9?
My wife suggested in '82 that I get an X1/9, but I was leery of the reliability and longevity of Fiats in general.
I knew the Fiero was in development, so I waited & ordered one in Sep1983. Drove it to work today. 370,000 kilometers so far.

[This message has been edited by David Hambleton (edited 10-22-2015).]

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FieRomeo
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Report this Post10-24-2015 05:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

Good story! What happened with the X1/9?
My wife suggested in '82 that I get an X1/9, but I was leery of the reliability and longevity of Fiats in general.
I knew the Fiero was in development, so I waited & ordered one in Sep1983. Drove it to work today. 370,000 kilometers so far.



Well, he had it until 1992, then he sold it. Have no idea what happened to it after that...

370000 km is quite a distance! Congratulations!
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Report this Post10-24-2015 06:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieRomeoSend a Private Message to FieRomeoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

FieRomeo

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Decided to clean up the the V6 engine a bit. The intake plenum will also get a new lick of paint with the same red and aluminium "theme" as the coilcover.



I'm really satisfied with the results!

------------------
/Morgan

1988 Alfa V6 6-speed swap in progress

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Report this Post10-25-2015 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CsjagSend a Private Message to CsjagEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Welcome to the forum! That is one beautiful engine.
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