Has anyone pulled off an ecotec LNF turbo swap into a fiero? This is kind of the long term goal for my 88 down the road. Didn't know if anyone has swapped this before?
No. Nobody has done an actual LNF swap, AFAIK. I think all the Ecotec swaps that have been completed are the non-SIDI versions, and some have been turbocharged.
The Ecotech LNF engine is a small lightweight direct injected powerhouse that produces 260HP and can go to 295 HP will an upgraded tune. Made from 2007 to 2010 It is no longer offered. When you swap engines like this you are dealing with a PCM w drive by wire technology and a CAN bus that assigns IP addresses to everything on the vehicle that it originally came in. The challenge, as I see it, is getting the PCM to function properly without all of the numerous inputs and interfaces that it expects. I don't believe that anyone has solved all the issues so far to make this a viable choice for a swap. AFAIK only the earlier Ecotech engines have been swapped into Fieros but they produce exactly the same horsepower as the 2.8L V6 but at higher efficiency and lower weight.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The Ecotech LNF engine is a small lightweight direct injected powerhouse that produces 260HP and can go to 295 HP will an upgraded tune. Made from 2007 to 2010 It is no longer offered. When you swap engines like this you are dealing with a PCM w drive by wire technology and a CAN bus that assigns IP addresses to everything on the vehicle that it originally came in. The challenge, as I see it, is getting the PCM to function properly without all of the numerous inputs and interfaces that it expects. I don't believe that anyone has solved all the issues so far to make this a viable choice for a swap. AFAIK only the earlier Ecotech engines have been swapped into Fieros but they produce exactly the same horsepower as the 2.8L V6 but at higher efficiency and lower weight.
The LNF has been replaced by other RPO codes for the 2.0 turbo. I'd try to use one of the newer engines than the LNF, if I was going to go with a SIDI Ecotec engine, as they have other benefits. The hard part with the SIDI engines is that practically nobody knows how to tune them yet. The wiring otherwise, is no more difficult than any other modern Ecotec, where you need a newer ECM that uses either CAN or the GM Class 2 Serial communications.
Once you add in all the accessories, and the additional weight of the turbo and extra exhaust/intake piping if you go turbo, I don't think it's actually lighter than the 2.8. I think they're rather very close in weight.
The LNF has been replaced by other RPO codes for the 2.0 turbo. I'd try to use one of the newer engines than the LNF, if I was going to go with a SIDI Ecotec engine, as they have other benefits. The hard part with the SIDI engines is that practically nobody knows how to tune them yet. The wiring otherwise, is no more difficult than any other modern Ecotec, where you need a newer ECM that uses either CAN or the GM Class 2 Serial communications.
Once you add in all the accessories, and the additional weight of the turbo and extra exhaust/intake piping if you go turbo, I don't think it's actually lighter than the 2.8. I think they're rather very close in weight.
Thanks for the clarification. I just assumed that when you have a serial network of microcontrollers each one must have a specific protocol identifier. Apparently with CAN each controller operates independently of a host. I would say that its a correct assumption that the aftermarket has a long way to go before widespread CAN PCM programming becomes available for most engine swap applications. From what I can see PCM editors are available for many of the newer vehicles but Ecotech is only supported to 2007. The way I understand it, tuning a CAN PCM means making tuning changes to a completely stock system, on a specific vehicle with all of the controllers on it.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Thanks for the clarification. I just assumed that when you have a serial network of microcontrollers each one must have a specific protocol identifier. Apparently with CAN each controller operates independently of a host. I would say that its a correct assumption that the aftermarket has a long way to go before widespread CAN PCM programming becomes available for most engine swap applications. From what I can see PCM editors are available for many of the newer vehicles but Ecotech is only supported to 2007. The way I understand it, tuning a CAN PCM means making tuning changes to a completely stock system, on a specific vehicle with all of the controllers on it.
CAN has been in use for over a decade. The LS4 is CAN, the LS4 is CAN, the 3800 (at least series III ECM) is CAN. It's been a federally regulated requirement in the US that all cars produced from MY2008 on use CAN, as opposed the numerous other protocols, and it's been a requirement in EU since I think 2004. The CAN is certainly not the issue.
However, the SIDI Ecotecs are using a different ECU, which I guess many aftermarket editors have had trouble unlocking. The LE5 Ecotec is a non-SIDI variant that is commonly used for swaps, and was used from 2006-2012 on various cars. There are a lot more SIDI Ecotecs after 2007 though.
You don't need all of the modules and wiring of a CAN based engine to be able to tune it. CAN is totally unrelated to the issues with programming the ECU of SIDI Ecotecs.
Has anyone pulled off an ecotec LNF turbo swap into a fiero? This is kind of the long term goal for my 88 down the road. Didn't know if anyone has swapped this before?
No, it hasn't been done yet but, from what I can tell, it's not because the resources are non-existent. Moreso because Fiero owners are notoriously cheap. Standalone systems exist that allow this very engine to be swapped into airboats, kit cars, etc. Hell, people are putting them in different auto manufacturer platforms as well (BMW/GM mashup anyone?)
It's been discussed on a few threads here, one of which I shared conversations had w/ reps over at both CBM and Trifecta Tuners (both of whom have BEEN providing means necessary to complete this swap). Do a little hunting and welcome to the forum.
Potential 2.4L Ecotech swaps can use this setup but it is speed density not DEI and uses a GM controller. http://www.alphafabindustri...-road-engine-harness This is the only stand alone Ecotech swap setup that I have come across.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Potential 2.4L Ecotech swaps can use this setup but it is speed density not DEI and uses a GM controller. http://www.alphafabindustri...-road-engine-harness This is the only stand alone Ecotech swap setup that I have come across.
I was looking into standalone LNF setups today and came across the same setup... however pricey.
I'm sure the LNF is what would've been used in a modern day Fiero If I ever have the time/money at my disposal I think I'll go with one of these or a newer turbo Ecotec.
My first call would be to Trifecta, as they have done lots of work with all the GM SIDI fours. If anyone can get an ECM set up for a swap, I'd wager it's them.
Potential 2.4L Ecotech swaps can use this setup but it is speed density not DEI and uses a GM controller. http://www.alphafabindustri...-road-engine-harness This is the only stand alone Ecotech swap setup that I have come across.
What I really want to build is a forged LE5 short block with a LNF top end. That way I have the displacement and direct injection. But I'm more interested if the F35 transmission is the same basic housing as the F23 (really will it mount the same with roger thelins trans cradle?)
The F35 gives no advantage over the F23 .It still only has 5 gears and from what I have read on the ecotec forums , it is a weaker transmission .That being said , I do not think the F35 was used with the LNF engine but it was used on the supercharged LSJ engine .The turbo Cobalts have heavier axles with a different spline count and a different bigger 5 bolt hub .So I do not know the designation of the turbo transmission , but it is not compatible with fiero axles like the F23 and old F35 was .As far as adapting to the fiero , buy a whole Cobalt SS turbo car . I see them for less than 5 K now , you can't buy all the parts for that kind of money .Tuneable by HP tuners as well .
The F35 gives no advantage over the F23 .It still only has 5 gears and from what I have read on the ecotec forums , it is a weaker transmission .That being said , I do not think the F35 was used with the LNF engine but it was used on the supercharged LSJ engine .The turbo Cobalts have heavier axles with a different spline count and a different bigger 5 bolt hub .So I do not know the designation of the turbo transmission , but it is not compatible with fiero axles like the F23 and old F35 was .As far as adapting to the fiero , buy a whole Cobalt SS turbo car . I see them for less than 5 K now , you can't buy all the parts for that kind of money .Tuneable by HP tuners as well .
Not sure what "weaker" means here exactly, as the FXX transmission numbers are based on their rated peak torque levels:
F23 = 230 N-m F35 = 350 N-m F40 = 400 N-m
I think the Cobalt SS LNF cars used the F25 trans. The newer FWD LDK/LHU/LTG cars that are equipped with manual trans all use the F40.
Weaker in this case means more than a few reports of failures out in the real world .The F23 has been a much more reliable transmission .I do not know anything about the F25 but it makes sense that the LNF trans was a different designation .
Originally posted by dobey: I think the Cobalt SS LNF cars used the F25 trans. The newer FWD LDK/LHU/LTG cars that are equipped with manual trans all use the F40.
Seems I was wrong.
Looks like the F25 was only used by Opel, and all Cobalt SS cars had the F35, while non-SS cars had the F23, with the exception of the early N/A Cobalt SS which also had the F23.
It does make sense that the F35 might have more failures in the wild though, as the LNF is making just more peak torque than the F35 is rated for, and it makes that peak torque as low as 2000 RPM, and keeps it coming until over 5000 RPM. And then there is the Stage 2 tune which with a simple ECM flash raised the peak torque to 340 lb-ft, which is well beyond the F35's rating, and even beyond the F40's rating. Considering that the LNF delivers peak torque from about 2000-5200 RPM, a Stage 2 flash bumps that to 340 lbs-ft, and the target demographic of the Cobalt SS is the younger crowd that tends to thrash on cars, it's no wonder there are plenty of F35 failures in the wild. The F23 was used in far more applications than the F35, but none of the cars it came in have a peak torque range of 3000 RPM, so I'm sure with enough research one would find as many F23 transmissions have likely been broken as well, but the percentage of total shipped would be lower. However, that doesn't mean the F35 is "weaker" than the F23.
If I ever have the time/money at my disposal I think I'll go with one of these or a newer turbo Ecotec.
