Im tossing the idea back and forth between a SC series 3 3800 and a 96-99 Northstar.
What are the pros and cons of each swap.
Ive read a number of threads regarding the two swaps and know some stuff but wnat to hear from people who have completed their swap,, and or have driven both to compare.
For reliability/money for power, the 3800SC is the best way to go. Plus, the North star (this is coming from a Cadillac Enthusiast) is an awful engine for the worst reason possible. The head gaskets blow, and unless you want to spend more money into dropping the engine, and re-doing the head thread bolts go with the 3800SC.
Plus, the after market support is easily in favor of the SC.
The 4.9L Cadillac engine is really reliable, and is probably a good start if your swap must be a Cadillac Engine.
I think they are both great motors with reliability leaning towards the 3800. Stock for stock the northstar has more power but the 3800 can be upgraded relativly easy to reach the same power. Having road in cars with both motors i would say the northstar was more fun simply because of the sound it makes and the power it had (both engines being stock). Im going with the northstar because I like the idea of an all aluminum dohc V8.
------------------ Whether you think you can, or you can't, your right (henry ford)
Got both had both, The 3800sc is definitely more bang for the buck and much simpler install... The n* sounds oh so sweet and can be very fast.. As can the 3800sc. Comes down to what you want .... I like both of mine very much..
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87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar/ 4t80e 86GT 3800 n/a---sold Northstar Rebuild
[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 07-03-2015).]
I swapped in the L-47(same amount of work as a N*) using the stock Isuzu 5-speed. Even though it's less power than a N* and it's not 100% tuned yet, I am very happy with how it drives. The sound is definitely a bonus. I have not driven a 3800SC but after 11 years of reading threads on this forum, it's obviously the go to engine for the quickest car involving the least money and work. I'm guessing that I would be happy with the 3800SC too.
Well im leaning towards the NOrthstar whcih i will be running with a carb setup and an EDIS ignition. If I run the 3800 it will just go in stock and stay stock. Northstar will have a lot less wiring obviosuly and look great, plus the power.
I'm putting a 3800 series 2 in my formula, because of the tuning options, money, supercharger whine, ease of swap at this point, and other reasons, as much as I would love the rumble of a V8, its not in the cards while I still have student loans and need to find a house.
But, I will also be the guy who points out that this forum has a search function.
The supercharger whine is one reason I avoided the 3800sc for my Aventador build and went with the normally aspirated V8 (a 4.9 in my case...sounds amazing!). I'm much more of a fan of turbo setups, of course the 3800sc is also a great candidate to switch over to a turbo for those that prefer it.
I've done and owned both swaps. Had the 3800 and loved it swapped in an 06 Northstar simply for the wow factor and the attention it got at carshows and it got plenty.
Well im leaning towards the NOrthstar whcih i will be running with a carb setup and an EDIS ignition. If I run the 3800 it will just go in stock and stay stock. Northstar will have a lot less wiring obviosuly and look great, plus the power.
Why would you carburate a fuel injected engine? There goes the fuel economy of the engine. And now here comes the pollution. Carburetors are useless in todays society. The only reason to go Carburetors is if it is a matching numbers car. The rest of the time, fuel injection is easier to work with, and is more efficient. Plus, you are looking at so much money into your swap now, that a turbo L67 isn't just winning the race it is saving money.
The supercharger whine is one reason I avoided the 3800sc for my Aventador build ...
I drive my 3800sc daily. The only time i hear the supercharger whine is when i'm in passing gear. otherwise you can't hear it.
quote
Originally posted by gotNorthstar:
Well im leaning towards the NOrthstar whcih i will be running with a carb setup and an EDIS ignition. If I run the 3800 it will just go in stock and stay stock. Northstar will have a lot less wiring obviosuly and look great, plus the power.
I have a 3800sc and 5.7 liter V8. Both are stock and fuel injected. The 3800sc just can't match the low end torque of the V8. The 3800sc is like a jet taking off. The V8 is like a rocket launch.
The 3800sc gets a few MPG better than the V8, but to me the V8 is more fun to drive.
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 07-05-2015).]
Why would you carburate a fuel injected engine? There goes the fuel economy of the engine. And now here comes the pollution. Carburetors are useless in todays society. The only reason to go Carburetors is if it is a matching numbers car. The rest of the time, fuel injection is easier to work with, and is more efficient. Plus, you are looking at so much money into your swap now, that a turbo L67 isn't just winning the race it is saving money.
A carbed northstar would probally out run a Holley 950 northstar! But now Ryan Hess' Ecm seems to be the way to go.
A carbed northstar would probally out run a Holley 950 northstar! But now Ryan Hess' Ecm seems to be the way to go.
IIRC Hess was the guy that wrote a Northstar program for use with a stick on the 7730 ECM . While it undoubtedly works IMO, using an ECM is going backwards in technology. OBDII is easier to scan, tune has the critical onboard diagnostics and it can support the automatics. I never would attempt a N* swap as it is expensive, uses a heavy 4T80e, requires cradle modifications, difficult to get the PCM running good. Nothing personal against this swap, but the 3800SC does everything that I want it to do at a decent cost and time installation level. There is also a good performance aftermarket for it and we know what it can do. Some claim that the N* has incredible power. Has anyone ever seen a N* Fiero run in the 1/4 mile? Years back we read reports of mid 13's but haven't seen anything lately. Not trying to start the which engine is best argument but it would nice to know what performance can be expected from the N* swap.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
This debate comes down to money. How much you are willing/able to spend. Either way you can get great performance, but the N* is far more exotic and can hit 400+HP with a cam (4) swap and a tune. The exhaust note of the N* is a thing that must be heard in person to truley appreciate. Every where I go in mine heads turn as soon as I am in ear shot. The real con of the 3800 is the automatic drive train options. Even a built 4t65eHD can't handle what a 4T80 can. So if you are going to go for big power that is a major consideration. Also, you can get a rebuilt 4t80 for $2300 shipped anywhere in the US and rebuilt N* with the head gasket issue already fixed for $4100 shipped anywhere in the US without a core charge.
The CON with the N* is the weight of the 4t80 at 294 lbs does affect handling some even after relocating the battery up front. The N* can be built with a manual trans however and then weight is not an issue and will be close to the same as a SC 3800. The pro of the extra weight is that the car rides better in normal every day driving.
The real con of the 3800 is the automatic drive train options. Even a built 4t65eHD can't handle what a 4T80 can. So if you are going to go for big power that is a major consideration.
The N* can be built with a manual trans however and then weight is not an issue and will be close to the same as a SC 3800. The pro of the extra weight is that the car rides better in normal every day driving.
Anyways, that's my $.02
I quoted the things I figured I would 'discuss'.
I never understood why people would want to go with an automatic in any situation. Swapping in an F23 transmission or an F40 makes for better fuel economy and it lets you control the rpms. Sure, it's convenient not having to separate the engine/trans, but some people convert their cars to an automatic which is harder than swapping in an F23.
The N* had it's place in time, but as Dennis pointed out the N* does around mid 13's in the quarter. Not really worth the money IMO. The sound might be good, but swapping in a proper exhaust will make a 3.8 sound beefy.
I never understood why people would want to go with an automatic in any situation. Swapping in an F23 transmission or an F40 makes for better fuel economy and it lets you control the rpms. Sure, it's convenient not having to separate the engine/trans, but some people convert their cars to an automatic which is harder than swapping in an F23.
The N* had it's place in time, but as Dennis pointed out the N* does around mid 13's in the quarter. Not really worth the money IMO. The sound might be good, but swapping in a proper exhaust will make a 3.8 sound beefy.
Some people want the auto's for drag racing consistency or b/c they daily drive it (like myself) in congested areas. To each their own. A properly tuned N* will be in the high 12's low 13's stock and a 75 shot puts you in the low 12's easy. Plus with the 4T80 you get Cadillac smooth when daily driving and that is another plus. As for the exhaust, it's not about beefing it up so much as the sound quality itself. Most of the 3800s I have heard sound pretty good, but the N* is just in another league.
As others have said, I've had both engines in my fieros. I like the 3800 for rich aftermarket support and for the easy install. I did run my 3800SC with a Haltech computer and 5 speed getrag. I had throaty exhaust and it sounded very nice, etc....
Northstar engines are easily available and cheap to acquire but expensive to work on.
I have three N* fieros. In my opinion, they are not a harder install, but do require fabrication/mods to the cradle, cut axles if you are using the 4T80E, and modifying the passenger side decklid hinge. The 4T80E is heavier but can take more as it was designed for 300HP in a heavier car.
If you choose to do a proper rebuild (like forum member Will has done) you can start with a base close to 350HP naturally aspirated. Imagine how easy it is to go to up in HP from there.
My 85GT auto N* is going to get a supercharger when I get all the bugs worked out. Regarding my 88GT N*, It will not get anything more because I'm running the 5 speed getrag at 300HP. My 88 Coup N* (unfinished) will probably use the automatic and a supercharger when I get to it.
Love both engines. Love the N* more because it starts with 300HP in naturally aspirated form and has the V8 exhaust note. A stock N* in a fiero gets 27-30 mpg fuel smileage on the freeway. I get that in both the auto and manual transmissions with the N*. Not bad for a V8.
Both the 3800 and the N* made Ward's top 10 best engines in the world.
Im tossing the idea back and forth between a SC series 3 3800 and a 96-99 Northstar.
What are the pros and cons of each swap.
Ive read a number of threads regarding the two swaps and know some stuff but wnat to hear from people who have completed their swap,, and or have driven both to compare.
A properly tuned N* will be in the high 12's low 13's stock and a 75 shot puts you in the low 12's easy. Plus with the 4T80 you get Cadillac smooth when daily driving and that is another plus. As for the exhaust, it's not about beefing it up so much as the sound quality itself. Most of the 3800s I have heard sound pretty good, but the N* is just in another league.
I have been in plenty of Seville's/Eldorado's/Allantes with both the 4.9, 4.5, and the 4.6. I also happened to own an 2000GTP, and my GTP will wipe the floor if I race against any of them (except for maybe the Allante because of the weight.)
The drive train is smooth, I will give you that. But the transmission seems to have issues as to when it will downshift. Top Gear made a whole video about it here:
edit to add: The Allante weight is 3752 LBS and did 0-60 in 6.9 seconds. Doing the quarter mile in 15.2 at 93MPH. The Fiero weighs anywhere from 2,593 to 2,789 lbs. I can't imagine it doing high 12's with a 1,000 pound difference.
[This message has been edited by zzzhuh (edited 07-08-2015).]
Quoted from zzzhuh: I also happened to own an 2000GTP, and my GTP will wipe the floor if I race against any of them (except for maybe the Allante because of the weight.)
You really have no clue what you are talking about.
2000 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP 0-60 mph 6.7 | Quarter mile 14.9
From the site '0-60 Times'
Comparing Cadillacs sportiest Seville vs Pontiacs sportiest GP.
Now, go away and come back when you know what you're talking about.....
So an Allante which weighs WAY less than a Seville only does 15.2 -15.0 in the quarter, yet a full Seville will do it in 14.5? I have driven them, I owned them, I don't need to be told what I have physically done. BTW. the Allante Northstar was pushing 295HP with 290LBS. The 1995 Seville had 300HP with 295LBS.
The physics alone don't make sense. Here is a site that shows seville times that makes more sense.
There is a huge performance difference between the 1st gen STS and the 2000 and up Seville's. I have owned a 95 STS since 2000, and prior to that a 95 SLS. The difference between the two models is akin to a biplane and a fighter jet. Don't believe manufacturers published HP specs......they don't always tell the whole story.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 07-09-2015).]
It also got more aggressive gear ratios which go a long way.
Correct.
We see this a lot in the Fiero world with the 4.9 swaps. If the donor drivetrain is from a Deville, performance is so/so, a Seville/Eldorado drivetrain has a lot more get up and go. Night and day, due to transmission chain and differential ratios.
[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 07-09-2015).]
I like them easy as fast. With off the shelf parts for everything a kid could build a 3800SC in his dads garage...LOL With the aftermarket support and tons of information you can run 10's in the 1/4 easily and reliably...Muhahah
IMO, N* sounds much better while cruising at WOT but the idling sound vs the 3800SC is debatable. However that being said the 3800SC can be made to sound wickedly exotic if you know how to do it.
3800SC is a lot cheaper, much faster, more reliable....nuff Said
There is a huge performance difference between the 1st gen STS and the 2000 and up Seville's. I have owned a 95 STS since 2000, and prior to that a 95 SLS. The difference between the two models is akin to a biplane and a fighter jet. Don't believe manufacturers published HP specs......they don't always tell the whole story.
Actually
The 94-97 Seville also produced 300Hp and 295LBS of torque.
..
when we get done lets have a 3800sc vs small block thread..
