we've got 2 3800 NA here, BOTH have what are coded as 1993 4t60e transmissions on them. exactly HOW do you determine a series 1 from a series 2 3800 NA ? except for the intake setup they look just like my 1997 3800SC (valve covers, exhaust, front cover, etc) is there no stamped ID in the block or heads ? anyone got pictures of the outward differences ?? please Help.
I have a 3800sc from a 96 bonneville and from what im told it is the first year for the series 2. It has raised lettering in the block that says "series II".
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress--IT'S ALIVE !!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
It does NOT look like the one 2.5 posted. I will post a picture. Most Important question: if it "looks like" a series 2, but was originally (1993) Wired as a OBD 1, Can the sensors be changed and wired as a OBD2 ???
CAN 1993 be wired as 1998 series 2 ???? or do we have 2 excellent condition "Paper weights" ??? ;-(
Maybe. I don't know what sensors are missing on the Series I to be able to run them with a Series II ECM, and I don't know what the block casting differences are, to determine if the missing sensors can be added to the Series I.
Why can't you run them with the Series I ECM, or an aftermarket ECM?
I was looking at GMtuners site, for a wiring diagram to splice the 1993 harness to the 88 fiero, nothing available that I can see. anyone know anything about doing that ? As far as I can see, the series 1 HAS knock sensors, O2 , egr, cam, crank tps, map, temp,
I would think Dan (Fieroflyer) and Phonedawgs would know best as this is a wiring inquiry.
Paging Dan ...
Paging Phonedawgs......
I am sorry I don't have an answer but I don't even know the difference between OBD 1 and OBD 2..... I know who OBI WAN Kenobi is though!
Just for fun take a look on YouTube at the SNL Star Wars auditions skit...
Sorry, rambling on..
------------------ ===Always trying to find time to work on cars=== Louis Duet Baldwin, Long Island, NY "My mind spins like helicopter blades." -G. Rossdale ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Blue" <= '85 Fiero GT 3800sc series 2 swap in progress--IT'S ALIVE !!!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Boo" <= '81 Delorean DMC-12 VIN #5835 Stock PRV engine Peugot 604 Intake manifold Exhaust headers Anti-3rd brake light
[This message has been edited by Lou and Blue (edited 06-25-2015).]
I would think that it would be simpler to keep your wiring as OBDI . You can tune OBDI with ,Tunercat by programming the removable eprom. I am not certain that the series I engines are MAF based or speed density so staying with the original ECM might be best.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 06-25-2015).]
Any 3800 Series 1 3800 can be wired up to and controlled by an OBD2 PCM. But it is going to require a measure of custom tuning work to get it running right.
The 3800 Series 1 engines (including the 3800 vin C LN3, 3800 TPI vin L L27, & 3800 Series 1 SC vin 1 L67) use all the same types of sensors as 3800 Series 2 engines do EXCEPT they do not use a MAP sensor. The MAP sensor can be easily added if you want to use an OBD2 PCM. But, the MAF calibration is much different on these Series 1 engines so setting up those tables correctly in an OBD2 PCM tune is going to require some work. Setting up the spark timing tables shouldn't be too difficult since we already have those from stock OBD1 tune files.
What cannot be as easily wired up to and controlled by an OBD2 PCM is the older RWD and FWD 3.8L engines that lacked the 18x crank sensor. These older engines only used a 3x crank sensor (unlike the newer engines that used a combo 3x/18x crank sensor) and the OBD2 PCM also needs the 18x crank sensor to operate properly.
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-25-2015).]
we've got 2 3800 NA here, BOTH have what are coded as 1993 4t60e transmissions on them. exactly HOW do you determine a series 1 from a series 2 3800 NA ? except for the intake setup they look just like my 1997 3800SC (valve covers, exhaust, front cover, etc) is there no stamped ID in the block or heads ? anyone got pictures of the outward differences ?? please Help.
Easiest way to tell is to look at the injectors. On all Series 2 and 3 engines, all 3 injectors on the same bank are installed at the same angle. On Series 1 engines, 2 injectors are at the same angle while the 3rd is at a different angle.
Also, on all Series 2 and 3 engines - the intake ports and exhaust ports on the heads are all evenly spaced. On Series 1 engines, the intake ports and exhaust ports are NOT evenly spaced.
Lou. If you find wiring for OBDI too much trouble there is a guy on this forum that may provide you with a custom plug and play OBD I harness. Should you wish to go this route send me a PM and I will pass on his name. No its not me as I am up to my eyeballs in projects now. I have seen several Fieros that have had series 1 engine swaps so it has been done. If you want to go the easy way and don't mind a harness that isn't the neatest looking; just take the OPBD 1 harness with the GTP fuse box/power center, apply power, grounds, about 8 connections, extend a few wires and you're there. The harness on my first 3800SC swap was built this way and its still running fine to this day.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I don't know of any EV6 Blocks that are Series 2 but it is odd that it has plastic upper intake. The pic showing the exhaust manifold. The exhaust runners on Series 2 are even. The one in the pic has 2 close and 1 farther apart. The egr tube on the front manifold also leads me to say Series 1. I currently have a Series 2 SC running off a 1993 16141470 PCM, Havn't tried the other way around. I had a Series one in first then went to a 1998 Series 2 engine.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 06-25-2015).]
Even though my wiring diagram includes the pins for the POS electro-vacuum 94-95 cruise don't be tempted to use it. It is a POS. Use a digital cruise from the 96+ GM vehicles.
New terminals are available for the PCM connectors.
[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-25-2015).]
HMM... That may save the day. kept looking at them and they have all the sensors in the same places as my series 2. So is this for OBD1 or OBD 2 ? Thanks.
are the series 1 "Batch fire" injection ? all the injectors have a pink wire w/ black stripe and a black wire, series 2 are different color coded for each injector. (Learning)
are the series 1 "Batch fire" injection ? all the injectors have a pink wire w/ black stripe and a black wire, series 2 are different color coded for each injector. (Learning)
All 3800 Series 1 engines are SFI. Even some older 3.8's were SFI (depending on application as there were some that were batch fire as well).
I think these 2 series 1 engines and 4t60e's are going to the scrapyard. a real Shame, both have 180 PSI in all cylinders, 50 psi "Cranking oil pressure" and are spotless. oh well.
Any idea what they came out of? What are the broadcast codes on the transmissions? ex. 3awx, 3paw ect. With the broadcast code I could at least pin down what model they came out of. The transmissions will bolt up to 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.0, 3.3, 3.8 and so on. With about 3/4 the wiring needed for ODBII and 4T65e. The Series 1 that I had before the Series 2 seemed to be "smoother" than the Series 2. By no means a slouch. About 20 lbs heavier that the Series 2. About 80% of the balls. But will move a Fiero nicely.
The 1994 and ODB1.5 PCMs were kind of flakey. I would either go pre ODBII 1992-1993 or ODBII 1997-2004. Seems to be more coverage for them. The reason I went with 1993 was due to I can reprogram myself with a EEprom programmer as much as I want. Don't have the funds for a pass through scanner to program ODBII. Changed the programming on the 16141470 about 8 times before I got it where I wanted it. Most of that was stuff like, fan temps, road constant for tire size/speedo calibration and shift points. It would be nice to just connect and flash, but it's not bad to keep a spare EEprom. 1 in the PCM one on hand to make changes. I'm also not trying to make better 1/4 mile times. The drive train I had is currently awaiting some minor work before I decide to put it in my 87. It was in an 85, that someone decided to come though a stop sign. Took it off the road in February. The last long distance run I had I was able to get close to 30 mpg. If I kept my foot out of it I was able to get 20 average. I'm lucky to get 23 highway with the 87 2.8/Th125. Yeah I miss the 3800sc, but I really miss the overdrive.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 06-26-2015).]
613WAW W3QMS on the tin plate. BOTH trans are 1993 and seem to be original to each engine. so, How did you wire the series 1 with the 4t60E into your fiero ? OBD 1 or 2 ?
3WAW 3800 C/H Body & GM200 (U-body) 3.06 overall ratio, 35/35 primary gear ratio, 3.06 final drive ratio, 31 teeth speed sensor per rev, 1897 stall speed. Do you have the PCMs? If you don't have a 3 inch by 3 inch bulk connector on the harnesses, you are missing all of the interior PCM wiring. First I raped a 1993 Park avenue ultra for as much of the PCM harness that wasn't connected in the dash. The PCM sits behind the glove box and the bulk connector is about 10 inches from that inside before it goes through the firewall. The cruise, transmission and voltage supply wiring had to be cut off. The transmission wiring I cut out from under the hood. Then came the fun part. Found out that, Alldata and Moto logic's wiring diagrams were incomplete. They all show generic wiring for all cars with 3800s. Mitchel's was the only one that was complete. I was able to reduce some of the wiring. I didn't need cruise and A/C controls. I can use what is in the car already. When I pulled the 2.8 out I separated all the wiring from the C500 and C203. I bypassed the oil sending unit control of the fuel pump and use the PCM to control it. The C500 wire for the oil gauge gets a new connector for the 3800. The wiring that normally goes to the tach and 12v at the 2.8 coil gets wired to the ICM harness from C500. The temperature light from C500 to PCM temp light control. The wire for Fan temperature switch gets wired to the fan control from the PCM. The park/neutral wiring had to be spliced, different male/female terminals, but if I remember right the colors were the same. From the C203, Inj1 goes to the injectors, Inj2 goes to PCM controled solenoids(boost, evap, trans shift solenoids, ect.) The torque converter control uses the same wiring from C203 as stock. The ALDL wiring is the same. You have to use the 4000 per mile out from the PCM through the filter adapter to drive the speedo. Because I had to cut the trans wiring, I had to resplice to the bulk connector, but had plenty of wire from under the hood of the Park Avenue. The rest of the PCM wiring was left intact. I mounted the PCM in the stock location. Had to cut the bracket because the PCM connectors are on the side instead of the bottom. Mine come out towards the driver's side. Then the harness goes down and the bulk connector sits at the bottom to be tied into C203 and ALDL. The other side of the bulk connector wiring goes ender the shift cables then up the passenger side of the PCM then through the stock plastic bulk head grommet where the stock 2.8 PCM/ECM wiring went. About 80% of the wiring colors were the same as the 2.8. Side note: I'm using a 1995 transmission that had the same backwards cut fine tooth gear final drive that they used in the 1994-1995 SC applications. Before they came out with the true HD version. With that I had to change the wiring in the transmission. If you use the right PCM you won't have that issue. Some used PWM converter(extra solenoid) and/or temp sensor. The first things I edited out of the program was Vats/Passkey. Then I was able start it and get it home. Then I found out about the Quad driver errors. Besides the normal solenoids/loads, you have to have or is better to have the PCM see a temperature light, evap/purge solenoid and transmission parity switch. I could have edited those out, but I made them functional. It's sort of 1/2 way between the stock PCM and an ODBII PCM wiring. The 1994-1995 PCMs are just as bad to wire up as an ODBII PCM without the ODBII PCM thrills. Mine only has 1 O2 and doesn't look for a Cat. But wished it used the dual knock sensors.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 06-26-2015).]
Hi, Wondering if you guys can help me out. I have a 95 series 1 3800 s/c from a Buick with the dash and all the wiring. Only problem is I have no computer, I can buy a 97 or 98 computer from a guy. Will the obd2 conversion be manageable?
Easiest way to tell is to look at the injectors. On all Series 2 and 3 engines, all 3 injectors on the same bank are installed at the same angle. On Series 1 engines, 2 injectors are at the same angle while the 3rd is at a different angle.
Also, on all Series 2 and 3 engines - the intake ports and exhaust ports on the heads are all evenly spaced. On Series 1 engines, the intake ports and exhaust ports are NOT evenly spaced.
Beat me to it by a while, but that's by far the fastest method of checking - the exhaust ports are usually pretty easy to see.
Hi, Wondering if you guys can help me out. I have a 95 series 1 3800 s/c from a Buick with the dash and all the wiring. Only problem is I have no computer, I can buy a 97 or 98 computer from a guy. Will the obd2 conversion be manageable?
Buy a 95 S1 computer and run it as such. No you can't just run a S1 on a S2 computer without retuning it. No retuning is needed to run the S1 on the S1 computer.
Buy a 95 S1 computer and run it as such. No you can't just run a S1 on a S2 computer without retuning it. No retuning is needed to run the S1 on the S1 computer.
I would like to get a 95 computer but on local adds that's all I can find, I could always look at a wreckers but the price is right on the 97 or 98 computer @ 20$ each. Could I run any 92-95 S/C computer?
1992-93 3800 Series 1 SC PCMs were set up to work with a 3-solenoid digital EGR valve (4-wire). 1994-95 3800 Series 1 SC PCMs were set up to work with a linear EGR valve (5-wire).
Besides mem-cal type, wiring, connector, and pinout differences, that's about all that is different between the two Series 1 SC PCMs.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 11-03-2015).]
1992-93 3800 Series 1 SC PCMs were set up to work with a 3-solenoid digital EGR valve (4-wire). 1994-95 3800 Series 1 SC PCMs were set up to work with a linear EGR valve (5-wire).
Thanks for the info, this will be my first 3.8 swap and need all the help I can get.
