In my previous research on radiators ( for my El Camino), I had learned that a radiator with two 1" cores will outperform a radiator with 3 5/8"cores. I bought an American Eagle 2 core for my Elky, and have been happy so far. In looking at one for my Fiero, it appears that the American Eagle 2 core ( Made by Champion) might be physically a little bit larger than the 3 core ( core is 2.125 thick vs 2.000 for the 3 core). The 2 core is supposed to cool up to 650HP, vs the 3 core cooling 450 hp ( according to the Champion website).
Any thoughts/experiences on 2 vs 3 cores? I need all the cooling I can get here in Las Vegas. Yesterday, it was 110, and with the AC on I approached 240 before I shut off the AC and drove home in the heat. Even with the AC off, it had a hard time getting back to 220, and I don't even like to run that hot.
Also, I'm thinking of installing a modified Mark VIII fan. I have a couple left over from doing my Elky installs, and it looks like with some trimming it may fit OK. Have to run some new power lines ( steady state on high they pull 33 amps). Hope the wimpy 2.8 alternator is up to the task. Will have more amps on the 3800 install later this summer..... Comments on this welcome as well.
In my previous research on radiators ( for my El Camino), I had learned that a radiator with two 1" cores will outperform a radiator with 3 5/8"cores. I bought an American Eagle 2 core for my Elky, and have been happy so far. In looking at one for my Fiero, it appears that the American Eagle 2 core ( Made by Champion) might be physically a little bit larger than the 3 core ( core is 2.125 thick vs 2.000 for the 3 core). The 2 core is supposed to cool up to 650HP, vs the 3 core cooling 450 hp ( according to the Champion website).
Any thoughts/experiences on 2 vs 3 cores? I need all the cooling I can get here in Las Vegas. Yesterday, it was 110, and with the AC on I approached 240 before I shut off the AC and drove home in the heat. Even with the AC off, it had a hard time getting back to 220, and I don't even like to run that hot.
Also, I'm thinking of installing a modified Mark VIII fan. I have a couple left over from doing my Elky installs, and it looks like with some trimming it may fit OK. Have to run some new power lines ( steady state on high they pull 33 amps). Hope the wimpy 2.8 alternator is up to the task. Will have more amps on the 3800 install later this summer..... Comments on this welcome as well.
Thank you very much for that review as I had been wondering the same thing but not wanting to jump to what my physics brain-stores were telling me. I didn't feel the 3 x 3/8 tubes would cool better than the 2 x 1" tubes and am planning to purchase one to replace the current 3 row which is a little better than the brand new stocker I used temporarily while replacing a leaking 3 row.
I'd also like to know more about the Mark VIII cooling fan upgrade since although it rarely hits 3 digit temps in my area of FL, the humidity is often nice and high to make sure you don't miss out on the experience.
Originally posted by darbysan: Also, I'm thinking of installing a modified Mark VIII fan. I have a couple left over from doing my Elky installs, and it looks like with some trimming it may fit OK. Have to run some new power lines ( steady state on high they pull 33 amps). Hope the wimpy 2.8 alternator is up to the task. Will have more amps on the 3800 install later this summer..... Comments on this welcome as well.
You mean a Lincoln Mark VIII fan? 33 amps? Something is wrong. None of OE Alt will handle 33amps for fan and everything else. 33a will fry most relays/switches too. Ford E fans should be about same watts as GM... ~150w draws ~10a at 14v.
------------------ Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should. (Jurassic Park)
It states the Mark VIII fan is too large, and the Taurus version using the same motor with a smaller fan is unusable due to the construction of the fan/shroud.
The Volvo fan is usable on the Fiero shroud though, with a little trimming and custom mounting. I have one of these fans sitting here, but I haven't got to the point of getting it in my car yet. I plan to make a custom shroud designed to fit the fan properly, for mine.
I can't say too much about the actual cooling efficiency on the 3 core vs 2 core, but I can tell you that Archie's LSx swap kits suggest/use the 3 core, and I've not heard of any of those having any issues with cooling. The standard LS376/480 swap is an LS3 with a GMPP hot cam making 480 HP/480 lb-ft. Troy's supercharged LS7 is also using the same 3 core I think, and it makes around 640 HP at the crank.
Originally posted by theogre: You mean a Lincoln Mark VIII fan? 33 amps? Something is wrong. None of OE Alt will handle 33amps for fan and everything else. 33a will fry most relays/switches too. Ford E fans should be about same watts as GM... ~150w draws ~10a at 14v.
Mark VIII fans pull a lot of amps. They also move a lot of air- somewhere in the 3500 CFM range, vs maybe 1500 CFM's for most stock fans ( at 1/2 the amps) . Amps pulled is directly related to HP, and therefore fairly well correlated to CFM's. I measured mine on my Elky at 33 amps on high. I ran a 40 amp fuse, and a 70 amp relay. Startup amps will pull up to 70, but not long enough to blow the fuse. I run a 140 amp alternator in the Elky.
I have looked at the Volvo fan, and it's certainly a good idea. It's basically the same motor as the MarkVIII, so should pull about the same amps. I know a lot of guys who do the MarkVIII swap use the Volvo relay / resistor setup for a two speed system, and the Volvo relay is 70 amps. Since I already had the MarkViii fan available, thought I would measure it up. Won't work as a straight bolt in, but if you cut the MarkViii fan out of the Ford shroud, and cut the Fiero fan off the Fiero Shroud, I believe it will fit. May have to wait until I get the 3800 swap done so I have a bigger alternator. Also not sure about the airflow once I get that many CFM's moving. If the airflow out of the frontal area is restricted, it may cause the fan to actually pull more amps.
As for how many cores, that debate has been going on for a while, and I think it could go either way. Most feel if 1 core is good, 2 is better, 3 is way better, and 4 is really great. But with Aluminum radiators, you can get more surface area and fin area with two 1" cores vs three 5/8" cores. I think this is why Champion says it can cool more HP with two. I know a lot of folks just go with 3 cores, because bigger is better, right
You mean a Lincoln Mark VIII fan? 33 amps? Something is wrong. None of OE Alt will handle 33amps for fan and everything else. 33a will fry most relays/switches too. Ford E fans should be about same watts as GM... ~150w draws ~10a at 14v.
nothing is wrong, that fan is a 2 speed monster, known to move mountains of air.. most never make it to the yard, are pulled when car shows up..
Well, I pulled the plug and ordered the American Eagle 2 core radiator. Should get it next week. It is 1/8" thicker than the 3 core, so may have some slight fitment problems ( maybe with the fan??). We'll know once I try, and I'll post back. I Chose the 2 core after some more research indicating that the airflow over the 2 core is increased vs the 3 core, and since the fan is not a monster ( yet ) thought the additional airflow would be a benefit. I've had good experience on my Elky with the 2 core, and It was also a little cheaper
Fan upgrade may have to wait until I get the 3800 installed. Stock 2.8 alternators were 70 or 100 amps, and I fear that I have the 70 amp version based on the load I currently see on the meter when everything is running ( AC, FAN, etc). If it were the 100, I might try the MarkVIII fan. The 3800 comes with 140 amp, and I'll likely use the stock 3800 alternator at this point.
Originally posted by darbysan: Well, I pulled the plug and ordered the American Eagle 2 core radiator. Should get it next week. It is 1/8" thicker than the 3 core, so may have some slight fitment problems ( maybe with the fan??). We'll know once I try, and I'll post back. I Chose the 2 core after some more research indicating that the airflow over the 2 core is increased vs the 3 core, and since the fan is not a monster ( yet ) thought the additional airflow would be a benefit. I've had good experience on my Elky with the 2 core, and It was also a little cheaper
Fan upgrade may have to wait until I get the 3800 installed. Stock 2.8 alternators were 70 or 100 amps, and I fear that I have the 70 amp version based on the load I currently see on the meter when everything is running ( AC, FAN, etc). If it were the 100, I might try the MarkVIII fan. The 3800 comes with 140 amp, and I'll likely use the stock 3800 alternator at this point.
The width change should only affect the core, not the tanks so it shouldn't be a problem as the core width will just be closer to that of the tanks.
That's what I think too. Only problem I could forsee was the fan getting too close to the core, and a couple of washers and some foam gasket should solve that if it's an issue.
We have had very good results using the PROFORM 16" fan and the stock ( but modified) Fiero shround. Cut the 'X' off the shroud that supports the fan, trim the nubs off of the edge of the PROFORM and they two units mate together like made for each other. I believe forum member fierosound or sourmug came up with this mod and has a thread.
Thanks for the link. I had reviewed that mod, and thought it might have some merit. My situation is somewhat unique in that I routinely deal with Ambient Air of 115+ with 5% or less humidity. Temps coming off the road ( like at a stop light) can easily soar to 125. With the AC on full, it takes a lot of cooling power. I know the 3600+ cfm of the MarkVIII can work, but not sure if there is enough airflow path after the radiator to accommodate that much flow. Going to a lower CFM fan is a gamble somewhat that a lower CFM fan will also work. So many companies claim CFM's that just are not factual that it makes it hard for me to come to a decision. Used to be able to make decisions a lot quicker when I was younger, but I guess that was because is was smart and knew everything. As I get older, it sure takes longer.
New Radiator arrives on Monday, so I'll start with that and see if there is much improvement. I'll do a flush at the same time, and change out the antifreeze.
Any recommendations on what antifreeze to use?
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) T460e.
Thanks for the link. I had reviewed that mod, and thought it might have some merit. My situation is somewhat unique in that I routinely deal with Ambient Air of 115+ with 5% or less humidity. Temps coming off the road ( like at a stop light) can easily soar to 125. With the AC on full, it takes a lot of cooling power. I know the 3600+ cfm of the MarkVIII can work, but not sure if there is enough airflow path after the radiator to accommodate that much flow. Going to a lower CFM fan is a gamble somewhat that a lower CFM fan will also work. So many companies claim CFM's that just are not factual that it makes it hard for me to come to a decision. Used to be able to make decisions a lot quicker when I was younger, but I guess that was because is was smart and knew everything. As I get older, it sure takes longer.
New Radiator arrives on Monday, so I'll start with that and see if there is much improvement. I'll do a flush at the same time, and change out the antifreeze.
Any recommendations on what antifreeze to use?
Does your car have an extractor vent in the hood or similar? Pressure builds up under the hood and traps hot air, which can be detrimental to cooling in situations such as yours. having a hood vent to allow the hot air to escape more quickly will help a bunch, and reduces the amount of air heated by the radiator/condensor from passing back to the engine bay. If you don't, and don't want to cut the hood, you can also do the stealth venting system, in the area behind the headlights:
This helps let some air escape, but it doesn't have as big an effect as a larger vent through the hood, directly behind the radiator fan.
Yea, I'm thinking I may have to do the hood vent. Adding lots of CFM flow through the radiator won't happen unless there is a corresponding outflow. Taking it one step at a time.
Update ( SUCCESS!): I installed a 2 core American Eagle ( Champion) radiator yesterday. No major fitment issues, as previously suggested by Champion. The core is thicker than the 3 core, but it fit with only mods to the rubber supports top and bottom, and some clearance work on the filler side of the mount bracket. I also cut the two bottom AC condenser bolts off to provide bottom clearance. No issues with fan install. I did clean the contacts on the fan connector- they were a little corroded.
Went for a test drive. The day before, temp kept climbing until it hit the red, and the light came on. Today, temp came up to Thermostat Open temp (195), and then slowly climbed up to 205 ( which is normal. Thermostat usually opens slowly and allows a climb of about 10 degrees). Outside temp was about 108, and the AC was on. AC actually felt colder- maybe more airflow over the coils?? Temp needle held steady, varying less than 5 degrees. I had calibrated the gauge yesterday with my laptop and Tunerpro RT. Need to give it a real test when it hits 115, but so far I am very happy!!!
PaulJK came over as well yesterday. He had bought the 3 core Champion. Here are some of the differences I noted. The 2 core had 1.375" inlet and outlet. The 3 core had 1.250" inlet and outlet. Stock tanks on both our cars had 1.31" inlet/outlet. Hoses for both cars seemed to fit OK and sealed OK. The 2 Core took just a little more grinding around the filler inlet for clearance, but I think it actually fit the shape of the bracket on the driver's side better than the 3 core. The 3-core has a step down shape on that side that sort of sticks out a bit. Had some trouble fitting the 3 core into the car, until we cut the AC condenser bolts. I think that is a must with the size of these cores. I know Paul had some cooling issues on the ride home, so we haven't solved his problem yet. He has a 3800 SC in his, and may need more work to bled air out of the system.
------------------ '87 GT in process, including GA / Seville brakes, Poly Suspension, '95 3800 Series 1 SC ( 225 hp ) T460e.
Paint it black, not just a cosmetic thing. Paint it lightly. Too thick and you add thermal resistance. Believe it or not black will transmit heat better in a static air test(ie when no air is moving over the radiator). It offers no benefit or loss when air is moving through it(if the paint is light). Not a big difference but any bit helps when you see temps like Nevada
Water jets: some guys, more the tuner crowd, use sprayers to cool down their intercoolers. A small water reservoir with window washer jets hidden in front of the rad spray lightly on it when you hit a switch. It doesn't take much. The evaporating water off the rads surface absorbs heat in the process making a noticeable difference. This works best with moving air and should work well in an airid climate like Nevada. Obviously it's not preferable to a well working cooling system.
I have recently installed the eagle 2 core and I was a tight fit. I had to use spacers under top bracket when bolting it down and had to grind a little out at the cap opening just to keep it from rubbing on the radiator. Link to my build. It's not long you will find the radiator part quickly. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127948.html
I have recently installed the eagle 2 core and I was a tight fit. I had to use spacers under top bracket when bolting it down and had to grind a little out at the cap opening just to keep it from rubbing on the radiator. Link to my build. It's not long you will find the radiator part quickly. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127948.html
Grinding around the radiator cap seems to be standard protocol, for either the 2 or 3 core. It doesn't take much, but is needed. We had trouble with Paul's 3 core fitting, and would have needed spacers like you talked about, but discovered that the bottom edge of the radiator was hitting the bolts that hold the bottom of the AC Condenser. Cut those off, and the radiator fit right in. Might want to check those bolts to see if it helps your fit.
Any pics?
