'85 duke auto.

Okay I've been having this problem recently. When the car has been sitting for a few hours or a day or few _sometimes_ (most of the time it fires up normally) it just won't crank. There's no solenoid click, the lights don't get dimmer, just the "bulb test" lights up okay. Just no reaction at all from the solenoid/starter. Tried wiggling some cables under the dash, tilting the column in different ways - always cranks hot, sometimes won't crank at all when cold. When it's hot it always starts. When I jump the starter with a screwdriver when it wouldn't crank from the key it starts perfectly.

I've removed the starter yesterday, cleaned it up, tested it on a bench - works perfectly. Put it in the car, drove all day - everything was fine. Fired up this morning no problem, wouldn't crank when returning from work after sitting for a few hours.

What should I look into?

EDIT: Battery is new, cranks very strong (when it does). When I mean cold I don't mean low temperatures outside, it was actually about 20 degrees celsius (about 70 F) - just that the engine was cold.

EDIT2: I'm thinking ignition switch. Though it doesn't really fit with hot/cold starting - I guess if it was goind bad it wouldn't start randomly - also hot?

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 06-15-2015).]

Sounds like the ignition switch on the steering column. I had this issue once on my 1986 jeep Comanche (same crappy 2.8 engine). Had to replace the ignition switch to resolve the issue.

I see one more component I haven't checked. The gear selector switch. Could that go bad too? Does that sound more reasonable with the hot/cold symptoms?

I've posted it but just to clarify it's an '85 duke auto.

Sounds like the ignition switch out of adjustment to me, have you tried tilting your column up and trying when this happens?

Had the same problem when I owned a 2.8L. No start, but with screwdriver jumping the solenoid the engine turned over. In my case I replaced the starter and everything worked fine afterwards. I think that the solenoid was defective. Now a different engine but same switch-still working.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Mike,

Yeah, tried tilting like I said in the first post - nothing.

Dennis,

What did "no start" mean in your situation? Did the solenoid click? Or was there no reaction at all?

quote Originally posted by cebix: Mike, Yeah, tried tilting like I said in the first post - nothing. Dennis, What did "no start" mean in your situation? Did the solenoid click? Or was there no reaction at all?

I believe that I was jumping the solenoid with the screwdriver so that seemed to prove that it wasn't working. Don't remember hearing any clicks. After changing the starter assembly everything worked fine again and continued to do so. Your problem is either the solenoid or the ignition switch. Both are easy to replace. BTW, Duke and 2.8L use the exact same starter.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Going to check that tomorrow. What about the gear selector switch? It's in series after the ignition switch. Do they go bad too?

EDIT: Again to add, benchtested the solenoid and it works great. Also I don't have any aftermarket alarms or immobilisers, the circuit is straightforward from the service manual.

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 06-16-2015).]

When you measured this voltage was the purple wire still connected to the solenoid?

Yeah.

10V at the solenoid should be enough to pull it up. If you are up to it you could try replacing the solenoid on your starter.

It's cheaper than a whole starter - http://www.rockauto.com/cat...249208&parttype=4188

Will order one, thanks. Tomorrow I'll try to repair mine, look inside, maybe it needs some grease. I have a spare used one but it has repair marks too so maybe it'll work till a new one comes.

Im also going along with the bad solenoid crowd. I dont mess with those, I just replace the whole starter. What usually seems to happen if you fix it the other component fails soon afterward.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-16-2015).]

I have cleaned and greased the starter. It works great on the bench. The brushes are good too. Cranks strong. The solenoid works too on the bench. It just doesn't when the engine's cold and the solenoid is not jumped.

quote Originally posted by cebix: I have cleaned and greased the starter. It works great on the bench. The brushes are good too. Cranks strong. The solenoid works too on the bench. It just doesn't when the engine's cold and the solenoid is not jumped.

If funds are limited, you can try a new solenoid. A starter needs to generate high torque to crank the engine over. It can operate on the bench and not have enough power to turn the engine over but if it works with the screwdriver jumping the solenoid it is likely good......for now.

Is all the wiring good and adequate ? If thats all good, id still replace the starter. Maybe you know someone that has one you can try ?

I don't know about wiring. Maybe there's some resistance in the line but I bet on the solenoid. Gonna tear it down and see what I can fix.

As of now it starts again with just the key...

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 06-18-2015).]

quote Originally posted by cebix: As of now it starts again with just the key...

Check the battery cable connection to the starter. The bolt where it connects might be loose.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I had a similar issue. It ended up being the Body Ground next to the factory battery location. I used jumper cables to test. Battery to Engine did nothing but connecting an additional body ground fixed the problem. After that I just looked at all the factory grounding points and found the one next to the batter had corroded/rusted.

[This message has been edited by Tweeter (edited 06-20-2015).]

I've just had the starter out a week ago like I said earlier and tightened down and sanded all the connections. It was acting like in this thread before I took it out. Ground straps are also good. I'm betting still on the solenoid itself, I didn't have the time yet to get it worked out but I'll post when I'll do.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Im also going along with the bad solenoid crowd. I dont mess with those, I just replace the whole starter. What usually seems to happen if you fix it the other component fails soon afterward.

Just to say why,

I have had what is called a flat spot, dead spot on the starter in a couple of cars over the last 40 years that did that, hit the starter or solenoid and it would start right up with the key.

But there is also the possibility it is just the ignition switch, not the one you put the key in, the one at the bottom of the steering column bolts may have loosened up or the switch itself could be on its way out. Just take the 4 bolts out of the column that hold it up and drop it onto the seat and you should be able to see if the switch bolts are lose, just by grabbing the switch and seeing if it will move then or when you turn the key.

But it also could be something as simple as a worn out part in the solenoid or starter that when it got hot didn't make contact.

Good luck I hate hunting down electrical problems, I would rather pound my balls flat with a sledge hammer than hunt down an electrical problem.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't



Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I've repaired the steering column some years ago and the ignition switch looked good then. I still don't think it's the switch because of the reason that when the engine's hot it _always_ starts.

Also when it wouldn't start from the key and I jumped it for a second (engine didn't start) I tried the key again and it still didn't start. Jumped it for a normal time and it starts.

[This message has been edited by cebix (edited 06-21-2015).]

quote Originally posted by cebix: I've repaired the steering column some years ago and the ignition switch looked good then. I still don't think it's the switch because of the reason that when the engine's hot it _always_ starts. Also when it wouldn't start from the key and I jumped it for a second (engine didn't start) I tried the key again and it still didn't start. Jumped it for a normal time and it starts.

Heat affects different metal differently it is possible when the engine gets hot so does the starter and even the solenoid , the contacts inside may be moving when the engine is hot. That direct connection with a screwdriver may just be all that it needs to make contact, can you see if any of the terminals on the starter are lose?

Steve

Nope, everything's tight. As I said before, a week ago I cleaned the connections too.

Sounds like a bad solenoid to me. Although it wouldn't hurt to check the big fat electrical connector on top of the transmission. If that comes loose, the engine won't start, because the wiring for the park/neutral safety switch goes thru there.

As I said before - there is voltage on the solenoid when turning the key to crank in P or N, so I guess that switch is good.

quote Originally posted by cebix: As I said before - there is voltage on the solenoid when turning the key to crank in P or N, so I guess that switch is good.

Missed that, more likely forgot it, if you have power to the solenoid then it is most likely the solenoid. and unless you are strapped for cash I would replace both the solenoid and the starter at the same time.

Steve

Just because I gotta be different... :P
My daughter's 88 2.5 had a similar problem that took me a long time to diagnose. The car would start 95% of the time with no issue. But when it didn't want to, no click, no nothing. Starting it with a screwdriver always worked though.

What it turned out to be was the battery cable. On the + side you have the main cable that goes to the starter. Then there's the smaller wire that runs to the C500 area. The previous owner had replaced the battery terminals with a clamp-on style that cinches down around the core of the exposed cable. The smaller wire was terminated into a ring terminal and it wasn't making a good connection. It was placed between the body of the battery terminal and the plate that gets squeezed by the bolt. I moved the terminal to the outside of the battery terminal assembly so that the ring terminal made contact with the head of the same bolt. With a good connection, no more problems with the starter.

That wire feeds the ignition switch and then the starter solenoid. I would always get good voltage everywhere, all the way to the solenoid on the purple wire but because of the bad connection it wouldn't carry the amperage load across it.

So check the small wire coming from the + battery terminal.

I redid the connections when replacing the battery a month ago... maybe something has come loose there. Will check it.

Got the starter and solenoid rebuilt. Cranks good so far. We'll see how it goes.

To close the thread I think I can say it was the solenoid. No "no crank" situation yet since the rebuild.