There is no hole for a distributor. No timing or vacuum advance if you just let it run on the ICM alone. You could get timing advance by running a PCM but then why not just include the injectors.
The 3800 engine was specifically designed for EFI, a self correcting engine management system optimized to compensate and adjust for all driving conditions. If it were possible or practical to install a carburetor on this engine, you would need radical modifications to the intake manifold to make it fit. Then you would need an electronic ignition controller for the spark timing, a new low pressure fuel pump and quite possibly a modification to the deck lid to clear the carburetor. With EFI GM has already done all of the work.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Why would anyone ever want a carb engine over a fuel injected? You will literally be wasting money on converting it, and then you will be wasting even more cause your gas mileage will be awful.
Carbureted engines are completely out dated and are useless in today's society.
You just GAVE the reasons WHY. NO COMPUTER AT ALL ! 1 wire for the HEI, 1 fuel line. No problems with "WHY isn't this and that "WORKING" ! I have 3 computerized cars, they all are fine (Most of the time) but it always Something to do with the electronics. I have had the same 2 NON Computer cars for 40 years, No Computers, No Problems with anything ! the fuel mileage in the city is NOT that much different, and I believe the only thing that holds down the highway mileage is the lack of Overdrive in the 1970s cars (I Am installing overdrive). just stating that the more electronics Go In, the MORE there is to Screw Up. funny that its never the Computer, always something "Going to" the computer. Tell me a carbureted small block Chevy swap is Not a "Whole Lot easier" than a 3.8 . 1 wire, 1 fuel line. and I DO HAVE a 3800SC that I completely did myself. the question of the whole post was, I was wondering if the front timing cover from say a buick 350 could be adapted to the 3.8 because the buicks used the distributor in the timing cover, not in the block. I am always wondering "What Ifs". Thanks for "educated" info.
Why would anyone ever want a carb engine over a fuel injected? You will literally be wasting money on converting it, and then you will be wasting even more cause your gas mileage will be awful.
Carbureted engines are completely out dated and are useless in today's society.
And it's a violation of federal law to use a carbed engine in a Fiero.
I wouldn't entirely say they are outdated and useless in today's society, but installing one in a daily driven street car makes no real sense.
Originally posted by 2.5: Unless you know how to work on one.
Well, if you can't learn to work on an EFI engine, then you surely can't learn to convert an arbitrary engine designed for EFI to run on a carb/distributor instead. You'll have to use some engine that already has a distributor gear, or has an after market kit available to convert it to a carb setup.
I have the 4.9, an EFI engine, converted to HEI and carb. Trouble free, goes like the wind. More hp even detuned.
Arn
Caddy 4.9 has a distributor though. Series II 3800 is OBD-II and has no distributor or provisions for one.
You have a dyno of the more HP while "detuned" with this engine? Or you just think it makes more because it sounds louder and you personally perceive it to be faster, and so it must make more HP?
you seem to be the only one that "Gets it". Maybe I'll look into the 4.9 more. Thanks. I know a 1986 3.8 in a grand national Used a HEI, the front cover with the dist and oil pump fit both 8 cyl and 3.8 . I realize that the 3.8 in the GN is somewhat different from a 3800, will a cam Interchange so as to have the dist Gear ? don't know. I "CAN" work on fuel injected engines, doesn't mean I "LIKE" to. you'd be amazed at what I've converted.
you seem to be the only one that "Gets it". Maybe I'll look into the 4.9 more. Thanks. I know a 1986 3.8 in a grand national Used a HEI, the front cover with the dist and oil pump fit both 8 cyl and 3.8 . I realize that the 3.8 in the GN is somewhat different from a 3800, will a cam Interchange so as to have the dist Gear ? don't know. I "CAN" work on fuel injected engines, doesn't mean I "LIKE" to. you'd be amazed at what I've converted.
The old 3.8 is quite different from the 3800. The timing covers don't interchange (you can do a quick image search for both to compare).
I "get it" too. You're an older person pining for the simpler days of 50+ years ago. But the population, and technology, have both exploded, so those simpler days are gone.
As for working on carbs or EFI, I can do both and far prefer working on modern EFI engines. Sure, they are more complex, I guess, but I can connect my phone to my truck with Bluetooth and see in real time exactly what is happening with any of the systems in the vehicle. Heck, I can even control the radio, door locks and windows, from my phone. All the fancy James Bond and Knight Rider "remote controlled" car stunts are actually 100% technologically feasible today. Modern technology also makes for much more efficient engines, and more compact packaging, which is giving us some very nice options for engine swaps into our Fieros. With fewer hoses and mechanical cables to run everywhere, engine bays can look much cleaner, everything weighs less, and it's easier to reach many of the components for maintenance. I can open my phone and see what's wrong, if anything is, very quickly. I don't have to spend some time figuring out if it's fuel or spark, and then if it's fuel, if it's the carb, or the pump, or something else. I don't need to pull the carb off and start pulling every tiny piece apart to find a tiny needle deep inside it somehow got bent. Instead, I get immediate reporting of issues with individual fuel injectors, the fuel pump, or whatever else might be at fault for whatever issue.
You can like what you like, but if you want to run a 3800 with a distributor and carb, you're going to have to do a lot of custom work to make it happen. And it's illegal for street use anyway.
A 4.9 is easily doable (still illegal though), as it has a distributor already. An LSx V8 is also doable, as there are conversion kits available, since it's popular for drag racing and such, but still illegal for street use.
right, I am old, and would I go back to the 50s -70s if I could ?, In a NY Second !!! technology is wonderful, for certain things. you can tune your car with your phone, That's something else I can do very well without (cell phones) they've turned our kids into idiots that can't do anything without them. God help us all when the communications satelites go down. as for" Illegal", "Illegal", Take a POLL here and see just how many people give a rats ass about running a carb where injection WAS being Illegal. if anyone really cared, the whole hobby would be dead. I asked a simple question if it COULD be done. It can't, OK I'll do something else. I appreciate opinions, but Stop PLEASE Throwing the LAW into it, I don't Care.
It could be done if you use an ignition other than a dist. I remember a long time ago seeing a crank pulley set up with ignition triggers that would work similar to a dist. I too miss the simplicity of swapping carbed engines, but what I don't miss is the constant adjusting and fiddling to keep them running. I also don't miss constantly changing fouled plugs, and engines that would barley make it to 100,000mis. I do think that a lot of the electronics that they put on cars now is BS, anti-lock brakes being at the top of my list, but even for all it's quirks fuel injection is the way to go.
Originally posted by dobey: ... And it's illegal for street use anyway. ...
Right. And so is my (and most everyone else's) SD4, and probably half of Archie's swaps and, technically, probably most Fieros that aren't in California or New England - due to the cats being shot, or just removed, or any number of "tweaks" that have been done that make them no longer compliant. And we're just talking about Fieros. How many other cars have been converted to carbs. A couple "brazilian". Nobody cares.
Having said all that... Will a "carbed and distributored" 3800 be easy to build? Nope. Is it possible? Absolutely. Is it a good idea? Depends on your skill level, budget, and what you want. Check out BubbaJoe's stretched frame Northstar build. Northstars didn't come with distributors or carbs, either. That thing is a freakin' work of art.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-12-2015).]
Originally posted by benoitmalenfant: ... Most of them don't like change...
I don't either, but I'll roll with it. If I don't sell my SD, I'll likely be buying a wideband O2 to help with the carb tuning. To heck with just "reading plugs" when the technology is available to get it spot-on.
right, I am old, and would I go back to the 50s -70s if I could ?, In a NY Second !!! technology is wonderful, for certain things. you can tune your car with your phone, That's something else I can do very well without (cell phones) they've turned our kids into idiots that can't do anything without them. God help us all when the communications satelites go down. as for" Illegal", "Illegal", Take a POLL here and see just how many people give a rats ass about running a carb where injection WAS being Illegal. if anyone really cared, the whole hobby would be dead. I asked a simple question if it COULD be done. It can't, OK I'll do something else. I appreciate opinions, but Stop PLEASE Throwing the LAW into it, I don't Care.
Being illegal does make a difference. Caring about other people also helps. Some of us live in states that have strict tailpipe emissions requirements. Some states like California will do both a diagnostic and visual inspection on your engine. New York, NJ, CT, MA, IL parts of Pa and 20 other states have similar laws. If you do not pass your registration is revoked and your auto insurance policy is automatically invalidated. If you are involved in an accident with an invalid or revoked registration you go to jail. I'd say that's enough reason to be concerned.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: ...Some states like California will do both a diagnostic and visual inspection on your engine. New York, NJ, CT, MA, IL parts of Pa and 20 other states have similar laws...
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
...probably most Fieros that aren't in California or New England - due to the cats being shot, or just removed, or any number of "tweaks" that have been done that make them no longer compliant. ...
Nobody cares.
Edit - Perhaps not that nobody cares. It's just that it's not an issue to the people who live in states that are have decent air quality without the draconian measures that the "peoples' republick" states employ. Aside from that, most of the highly modded cars don't get driven much, anyway. Even without the emissions controls, they still probably run cleaner than a lot of the so called "emission controlled" cars.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 05-12-2015).]
I don't know of any intakes, including marine for a series 2 or later for carb. Look at the 4wheeler sites. I though I saw a 4bbl intake around the rock climber sites for 3800s. You "might' be able to highly modify a 4.1 intake to work on a pre series but I think the passages won't work for a "series engine". You "might" be able to get a 3.8 timing cover to work on a series 1. You will have a very hard time getting a cam for it to drive the oil pump and distributor if you could get the balancer to work with the timing cover. The crank is going to be short in that cover.
You could. Use a FWD mid/late 80s 3.8 machined to take 4.1 rotating parts (if you wanted). 4.1 intake for a Quadrajet. A long while back took a 1964 small block Buick 300(310). Aluminum heads/cast iron block. Using a 3.8 water pump. With a 3.8 distributor, after installing a v8 pick up coil, Dropped it in the engine after using the round 3.8 forward intake bolt. Just a 2 barrel Rodchester. With a 350 turbo and rear out of a stripped Nova that was sitting down the street. And stuffed it in a 1978 LUV truck. Had the drive shaft shortened to 48 inches and had to mount the radiator in front of the core support. Drove it that way for over 100,000 miles. Drove it to the junk yard after 3rd went out. It was weighed less than 2200LBS. Would tow a full size pick up and do high 12s. Back in the late 80s. And passed state emissions. If time and money were not a problem I would like to use a later LandRover/Buick small block in a Fiero.
[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 05-12-2015).]
I am completely against carbed engines. Unless it is an numbers matching car, there is no reason NOT to go fuel injected. Sure, you don't have to worry about wiring as much, but it isn't nearly as reliable. Don't believe me? Well than why do modern cars not use them? Why do cars from 10 years ago not use them? Cause they are out dated and unnecessary.
The old 3.8 is quite different from the 3800. The timing covers don't interchange (you can do a quick image search for both to compare).
I "get it" too. You're an older person pining for the simpler days of 50+ years ago. But the population, and technology, have both exploded, so those simpler days are gone.
Dobey, I don't understand why you have such a bad rating. It seems like some people just don't accept facts
I'm an older guy that tried his best to resist learning about efi systems and stick with carbs. I'm really good with carbs but found I wasn't really able to tune a carb to run sideways in a Fiero. Sure the car went like a road runner on crack but the AF meter told a different story. It was easy to make it fast but pretty impossible to make it run clean. It also had on fuel spill over issues. I decided it was time to learn something new. It's actually good for us old guys to learn new stuff. I bought an aftermarket efi and amade some wiring mistakes which later reared their ugly head. I had to learn how to figure out what was wrong. I'm pretty comfortable around efi now and have a lot cleaner running car. I fought it for a long time. Us old guys can be pretty stubborn.
Well, if you can't learn to work on an EFI engine, then you surely can't learn to convert an arbitrary engine designed for EFI to run on a carb/distributor instead. You'll have to use some engine that already has a distributor gear, or has an after market kit available to convert it to a carb setup.
Could ask someone who knows about EFI too I suppose.
With fewer hoses and mechanical cables to run everywhere, engine bays can look much cleaner, everything weighs less, and it's easier to reach many of the components for maintenance. I don't have to spend some time figuring out if it's fuel or spark, and then if it's fuel, if it's the carb, or the pump, or something else. I don't need to pull the carb off and start pulling every tiny piece apart to find a tiny needle deep inside it somehow got bent. Instead, I get immediate reporting of issues with individual fuel injectors, the fuel pump, or whatever else might be at fault for whatever issue. .
We all have our preferences. The first point I dont understand at all, compare for example a 1966 V8 underhood to a 2014 V6, or even a 2000, I think the older is easier to work on. The only reason it could weigh less is aluminum block and heads, internals vs Iron. With wiring many new cars tech weigh more. If you are talking about sheetmetal and frames tech did accomplish some great things. Fiero spaceframes were quite a leap. Fuel or spark is simple enough. Carb or Fpump or filter, thats about it for fuel on a carbed engine...pretty simple. Unless an internal engine part failed which is not super common. EFI systems have an Fpump and filter too, and alot more of other parts. Reading the computer on your phone is pretty new. For many years what happened was taking it to a shop to have them charge you to tell you its this code, it could be these 3 or 4 things, which one would you like us to try, by the way you will get charged for each one. Or if a guy wanted he could measure ohm resistance at home on most of each of those 4 things and replace the sensor. Of which some sensors cost half of what a new carb would. Sure I can appreciate newer technology when it works. But I can understand when someone would like it simpler.
Why not use the original 231 block? It was the original 3.8 and guys were getting over 300hp out of them back in the 70s with a carb.
Edit- looking at some of the condescending and just outright ******* comments in this thread it's no wonder this forum is so much less active than it used to be. Some of you might think about stepping away from the keyboard and checking your egos. Geeze. WTF?
[This message has been edited by Taijiguy (edited 05-13-2015).]
Originally posted by zzzhuh: I am completely against carbed engines. Unless it is an numbers matching car, there is no reason NOT to go fuel injected. Sure, you don't have to worry about wiring as much, but it isn't nearly as reliable. Don't believe me? Well than why do modern cars not use them? Why do cars from 10 years ago not use them? Cause they are out dated and unnecessary.
Fuel Injection isn't exactly new technology either. Chevy had fuel injection on the C1 Vette in the 50s. So yeah, there are also 50-60 year old cars that didn't have a carb.
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto: right, I am old, and would I go back to the 50s -70s if I could ?, In a NY Second !!! technology is wonderful, for certain things. you can tune your car with your phone, That's something else I can do very well without (cell phones) they've turned our kids into idiots that can't do anything without them. God help us all when the communications satelites go down. as for" Illegal", "Illegal", Take a POLL here and see just how many people give a rats ass about running a carb where injection WAS being Illegal. if anyone really cared, the whole hobby would be dead. I asked a simple question if it COULD be done. It can't, OK I'll do something else. I appreciate opinions, but Stop PLEASE Throwing the LAW into it, I don't Care.
Technology is wonderful for everything. Carbs are still technology. Just because they don't have electronics and don't talk to the Internet, doesn't make them not technology. Cell phones didn't turn kids into idiots. Idiots turned kids into idiots.
I don't care if you (or some arbitrary number of others) don't care if it's legal or not. I care, and it's worth mentioning. This isn't a private conversation between you and I. It's a public forum where anyone can read it. It's something that needs mentioned, for reference for anyone else reading this thread.
Hobbies die. People caring about air quality and being mindful of how what they do to their cars affects not only themselves, but the world around them as well, is not going to kill the hobby of modifying cars, though. People spitting straight into the winds of change will. I try to be mindful of how I modify my cars, and how those modifications will impact the environment and those around me. It might take me a bit longer to accomplish major things like an engine swap, as a result, but I think it's worth it.
As for it being doable to carb a 3800 or not, of course it's doable. Pretty much anything is doable, as long as you have the skills, tools, and materials to do it. If you've got the skills, it's not terribly hard to design and make a custom timing cover, and timing gear, to add a distributor. It just takes a decent grasp of the math involved, a decent 3D designing program, a 4/5-axis CNC mill, a big block of aluminum for the cover, and decent steel and maybe a CNC lathe for the timing gear. Sheet metal intakes are easy enough to fab up to add a carb. Et voila, a carbed 3800.
I'm an older guy that tried his best to resist learning about efi systems and stick with carbs. I'm really good with carbs but found I wasn't really able to tune a carb to run sideways in a Fiero. Sure the car went like a road runner on crack but the AF meter told a different story. It was easy to make it fast but pretty impossible to make it run clean. It also had on fuel spill over issues. I decided it was time to learn something new. It's actually good for us old guys to learn new stuff. I bought an aftermarket efi and amade some wiring mistakes which later reared their ugly head. I had to learn how to figure out what was wrong. I'm pretty comfortable around efi now and have a lot cleaner running car. I fought it for a long time. Us old guys can be pretty stubborn.
I am in love with EFI would hate to ever own a car with a carb. However, I think it sounds like a cool project. You could gut the blower case, cap both ends, cut a hole in the top and weld a plate on top for a 650 or 750cfm carb. Then use a blow through turbo. Or maybe you could adapt a cog drive 4-71 or 6-71 blower and put the carbs on top, sticking out of the deck lid. That would look sick.
I'm sure there are relatively easy ways to run the ignition with the crank sensor or something.
When you look at guys making big HP numbers on V8's, like in Hot Rod and Car Craft, you'll see maybe one in 5 or so running carbs. I think carbs work pretty well at peak HP but not so good doing other stuff. Having said that, I still hate them. It seems like every time I've tried to run a Holley I blow out the power valve or something. Seems like I've always got a vacuum leak too.
well, in the end, I will Have to use a computer to run the 4t65e-HD trans, so I guess I might as well have it run everything. was just "wishfull thinking". right now I'm still in the middle of designing and building the body, so I've got plenty of time to decide on what engine and electronics.
Caddy 4.9 has a distributor though. Series II 3800 is OBD-II and has no distributor or provisions for one.
You have a dyno of the more HP while "detuned" with this engine? Or you just think it makes more because it sounds louder and you personally perceive it to be faster, and so it must make more HP?
This dyno run was it's lowest in the detuned format. I haven't spent the money to record the highest at full tune. At full tune it should be up to the stock torque and likely another 5-7 hp.
A lot of hate towards carbs, even NACAR ran them until '12. FI is cool, but for some of us, there is *nothing* like the sound of the secondaries kicking open on a big V8. I'm running and Edelbrock my 383 until the time comes when I can *afford* to go FI. It's not just a matter of efficiency and/or learning curve or being modern, at least for some of us, there's a cost factor as well. I can buy a few carbs for the price of a single complete FI setup.
Originally posted by Arns85GT: This dyno run was it's lowest in the detuned format. I haven't spent the money to record the highest at full tune. At full tune it should be up to the stock torque and likely another 5-7 hp.
So, it seems like you have roughly the same torque curve as stock, but moved up slightly in the RPM, so you lost low end torque, and picked some up in the higher end. Stock max HP is around 4100 RPM, so moving the powerband up will give you a higher HP number, but it doesn't necessarily mean you make more power. You're making the same power as stock, but in a different range, due to the difference in flow presented by going with the 500 CFM carb and the spacer.
But still, throwing a 2BBL on a 4.9 is fairly simple, given it's already running a distributor. A 3800 is a completely different thing.
A lot of hate towards carbs, even NACAR ran them until '12. FI is cool, but for some of us, there is *nothing* like the sound of the secondaries kicking open on a big V8. I'm running and Edelbrock my 383 until the time comes when I can *afford* to go FI. It's not just a matter of efficiency and/or learning curve or being modern, at least for some of us, there's a cost factor as well. I can buy a few carbs for the price of a single complete FI setup.
There's a big difference in the cost of throwing a carb on a 50 year old SBC that came with a carb to begin with, and trying to stick one on a 3800 which was designed without a distributor or carb. This thread isn't about whether carbs have a purpose or not. NASCAR is wildly different from street cars. And an SBC is wildly different from a 3800. Single plane (or even some dual plane) intakes for SBCs can be had for very cheap, because there are literally millions of them just lying around. There aren't for a 3800. Likewise, used carbs can be had pretty cheap as well, for an SBC. What you are not paying for in an EFI setup though, you're paying for in other areas, to get an SBC swap into a Fiero. When comparing a 3800 to an SBC, the 3800 complete swap will still almost always cost less, even with the full harness/ECM, due to the cost of the V8Archie kit to swap an SBC. Some people will get lucky and find a car with a swap kit already installed for very cheap, or will find someone that has one that never got used, and they just want to get rid of it for cheap; but those are rare situations.
