Greetings PFF members,

Both for community help as well as to garner some assistance, I'm going to write about my journey towards getting my non-CA '84 through the Smog test and registered in CA. I just moved from the East Coast, and in order to register my car, I need to have squeaky-clean emissions. So far I've had two smog tests, and I've failed both of them. Here are the results for the first test:


Also failed per leak in fuel evap system.


As you can see, my Oxides of Nitrogen (NOX) are very high. Between the first and second test I performed the following changes/repairs:

- Vinegar radiator soak and water flush of coolant system. I did the flush by pouring water into the system, running the engine, and draining it a few times over. I was still getting junk out of it when I stopped, but I know it's cleaner than it had been. I drained it by opening the stop **** on the bottom of the radiator as it's difficult to remove and reattach the radiator hose over and over again, but it seems like the coolant system is inherently difficult to flush because of all the ups and downs. Any tips for easier flushing?
- I found that my radiator fan is nonfunctional, but I did not have time to repair it before the test. I thought it was a faulty relay, but it seems to be bad connections/intermittent function on the part of the radiator motor. A new one is coming via Rockauto
- Added a few gallons of premium gas
- Replaced CTS because old one was suspect (although inconclusively)
- Regapped spark plugs to .065" (plugs are autolite with about 3k miles on them, new autozone wires at the same time, although cylinder one has an older wire currently)
- Fixed leak in fuel evap system
- for some history, Engine was rebuilt ~30k miles ago, head was replaced in June and has about 3k miles on it.
- The first time I heated the engine but didn't go on the highway. This time I went on the interstate for a few miles immediately prior to the test. Both times engine was running hot.

The second attempt:



I brought my papers to a mechanic who was kind enough to take a look for me to give me some pointers. Dirty combustion chambers are unlikely considering the low miles on the engine. He informed me that the EGR valve is designed specifically to reduce NOX, so high NOX might be because of a malfunctioning EGR. I found that my EGR opens and closes relative to manifold vacuum, but I do not know if it is opening the correct amounts at the correct rpms. While inspecting my EGR, I also found that my Thermac motor is broken and I have a vacuum leak at the temperature sensor inside the air cleaner. (new sensor is somewhat expensive at ~$40) Question; is EGR function (non-ecm controlled) determined entirely by manifold vacuum and unaffected by temperature? throttle position? I could not find this in the manual.)

My next steps will be:
- Replace radiator fan
- Flush coolant system a couple more times
- Perform EGR functional check with mityvac
- Check for more vacuum leaks

Thanks for reading. I will continue to post as I make more changes & repairs. Any ideas/help/pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Michael

He's correct about the EGR. I have hard that the Duke EGR (at least the 88 - probably the 84 as well) also responds to exhaust back pressure. How that all "works together" is a mystery to me, however.
If you push up on the EGR valve with the engine idling, does it make the engine run rough? It should. If not, the passages in the manifold may be clogged with carbon.
Advanced ignition timing can also cause high NO.

Generally, if the engine has a spark rattle (ping) it will probably have high NO, too. Overheating will contribute to that as well.

Some people claim that you can add a half gallon of Naptha or alcohol to a tank of gas, and it will magically make it pass. (Either one will tend to cool the combustion.) But it's kind of a "shot in the dark".
My 4.9 passed after the EGR was removed. At first I thought that it was because of the Naptha that I added to the gas, but I realized that my timing ring had probably slipped, and I was running really retarded ignition timing. After I passed smog, I was able to add nearly 10 degrees to the "base" timing before I got any ping. To this day, it's still set "by ear".

Guessing Catalyst is bad/weak. You likely need new cat approved for sale in CA. I would start w/ that.

Vacuum testing OE EGR won't work... Is Negative backpressure type and use vac and exhaust pressure to activate.
Many Aftermarket are Positive types and can pass EGR vac test.
See my Cave, Emissions and
www.howstuffinmycarworks.com/EGR_valve.html
http://www.tomco-inc.com/Tech_Tips/ttt27.pdf
http://www.tomco-inc.com/Tech_Tips/ttt26.pdf

Ignition timing Will effect emissions.
More plug gap can cause problem. .060 is already big on HEI system.

How much and how old is the gas?
If gas over 90 days old, drain old gas and use new 87 octane. Higher octane can hurt testing. (Save old gas and use later. allot just use that w/ several tanks.)
If you ping/knock w/ 87... first check timing. See my Cave, Fuel & Knock
ethanol can/will make gas to go "stale" enough to cause emissions issues, even hurt engine performance. Wet weather and EVAP issues can cause this even faster. Ethanol, like Brake Fluid, will draw water from the air.

"Flush coolant system a couple more times" is unlikely to help emissions.
Leaking coolant inside engine or wrong sealers/etc used can Poison the cat and/or O2 sensor.
Intake manifold can leak coolant to #4 cyl. If that happens, You might find #4 plug is different color vs 1 2 3.
If you use sealant on that gasket or install w/o a gasket.... can be a problem now or in future.
Head and manifold expand at different rated. Mounting Hardware and gasket allows for this. Felpro is best and made so is resistant for leaking coolant into #4 cyl.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

While I was casing a problem on my 84 I removed the throttle body to put another one on, I found the EGR passages under the throttle body were plugged with carbon. maybe worth the few minutes to pull the TB and check it out. Good luck.

Good timing, I need to get my Michigan 84 SE through Cali emissions soon, too.

quote Originally posted by johnt671: While I was casing a problem on my 84 I removed the throttle body to put another one on, I found the EGR passages under the throttle body were plugged with carbon. maybe worth the few minutes to pull the TB and check it out. Good luck.

I was just going to mention that. According to my mechanic, it's common for a carbon like washer to buildup on the egr or egr tube that attaches to the intake manifold. Allso it shoud be noted, that there is a metal tube that attaches to the rubber intake, make sure its not split at the connection point.Fuel injection cleaner and an air filter can help.

Thanks much for the replies. There's a lot of good stuff there. When I manually opened the egr at warm idle nothing happened to the idle. Hopefully clogged is exactly my problem, per Raydar and John's suggestion.

Interesting about the carbon buildup effectively making a restricting washer. I'll check for that.

I also never knew much about pinging. I just did some research, so I know what to listen for if I am experiencing any. I found this video about ping. If I have an issue with pinging, is it likely to be present when not under load?

Gasoline isn't old
Catalytic converter is new, CA spec

I'm first going to check the throttle body egr passages for restrictive buildup. I'll try to get some pictures up about what I found. I'll also search for detailed throttle body schematics.

Thanks much for the help.

Michael

Edit: prematurely posted

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 12-14-2014).]

Yep, living in San Jose.

Ah, a bit far. I'm in orange county. Hopefully my writeup helps. Care to post your numbers on this thread when you get your test(s) done and tell about anything you may have to do to pass? Good luck!

Michael

And cove EGR passages it is! Here is a photo of my throttle body and the completely clogged passageway impeding egr function:

To repair requires a new set of gaskets. Do any solvents dissolve carbon buildup?

Michael

I sprayed some throttle body clear on a paper towel and slipped it in the opening, and gently sprayed the cleaner on the carbon and soaked with paper towel it up a few times. It broke up easy and after I had the passage clean, I sprayed into the intake to break any small pieces down that may have fallen into the intake.

[This message has been edited by johnt671 (edited 12-17-2014).]

Those NOx numbers are VERY high for a car with a new cat. Although a properly functioning EGR will help, it's unlikely EGR is going to have a big effect on NOx emissions during an emissions test. Going back to 87 octane is good advice, and adding alcohol won't hurt. I think you likely have a bigger problem though - carbon deposits in the engine (I mean, look at your EGR!) and possibly a weak fuel system (running lean, raising EGTs). I would strongly consider running some Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner through there - it's basically the same stuff as GM Top Engine Cleaner, but the GM stuff isn't available anymore. It's good stuff - does wonders with carbon deposits.

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: Although a properly functioning EGR will help, it's unlikely EGR is going to have a big effect on NOx emissions during an emissions test.

Why is this?

My engine is pretty clean. Rebuild was ~30k miles ago and I replaced the head in June. Only other big issue that I'm aware of is bad radiator fan motor--> engine running hot. I'm hopeful that replacing the fan motor will cool things down significantly properly.

What do you mean by "weak fuel system"?

Would Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner run much risk of clogged the cat?

Thanks for your input.

Michael

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: Those NOx numbers are VERY high for a car with a new cat. Although a properly functioning EGR will help, it's unlikely EGR is going to have a big effect on NOx emissions during an emissions test.

My 88 with a 3.4 "crashed and burned" on NOx with the EGR disabled in the chip. (The guy who burned the chips got his files mixed up. It was supposed to be enabled.) As soon as I swapped in a chip with the EGR enabled, it passed with flying colors.
Of course, that was just one case.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-18-2014).]

Picture above is EGR "port?" I don't have notes for 86 & down for EGR

EGR exhaust can get hot.
Most cars never run EGR to Carb/TB/TBI for that reason.

quote Originally posted by Fierology:What do you mean by "weak fuel system"?

Low fuel pressure caused by a weak pump or a clogged filter, or clogged injectors resulting in low flow or poor atomization. The latter scenario can cause havoc on a fuel injected car, as you end up with fuel that doesn't fully burn which the O2 sensor sees as a rich mixture and then lean things out more. You can end up with very high EGTs that result in high NOx output.

quote Would Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner run much risk of clogged the cat?

Should not. It's "cat safe" and used by Chrysler dealers on modern cars. I've used it numerous times on various cars and never had a problem.

Get that fan fixed, make sure you don't have any vacuum leaks (false air -> lean running), and check your fuel pressure.

My EGR port is nice and clean now. Before testing I'm going to:

--> replace the radiator fan (Anyone have a non-a/c harness plug to sell?)
--> run Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner
--> check for any other Vacuum Leaks

I talked to the mechanic at the shop/smog station, and he told me that if the car is under load on a dyno at 15/25mph that the egr should be operating even though it's vacuum operated.. I hope he's right. I really want to test it before and after the Mopar Cleaner, but that costs a lot more if it doesn't pass.

Thanks again, and I'll continue to update on the progress,
Michael

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 12-19-2014).]

quote Originally posted by theogre: You likely need new cat approved for sale in CA. I would start w/ that.

Definitely.

If you are in the LA area, go to Remedy Radiator on Valley Blvd. (Rosemead i think). He will pull your radiator, hand-clean the tubes and re-install at a very reasonable price.

Just passed the smog test here in San Jose, with my Federal Emissions Michigan car. You know you're in for some fun when they pop the hood looking for the engine. They had obviously never done a Fiero before. Also had to show them how to pop the decklid, find the catalytic converter, and open the gas cap door. Also pointed out the car was RWD so they wouldn't try pulling it onto the rollers with the front wheels on it, and put it into the wall.

Results:



This is a fairly new engine with ~23,000 miles on it since installed in 2006, and a catalytic converter from ~2005. I also replaced all the fuel and EVAP stuff a few years ago when I replaced the fuel pump.

Only ran into two problems:

-Thermac pipe had come disconnected at the point under the air cleaner, reattached it.
-Gas cap wouldn't hold pressure, even though it's a 2 year old Stant unit. Walked down the street, bought a new one, and it passed. Gas cap is tested separately off the car with a tester.

Total cost was $58.00 for the test and $10.86 for the gas cap. There's an additional $10 charge for pre-95 vehicles to test the EVAP system.

This is quite the money making scam, like the pump jockeys in NJ.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK:Be aware that certain parts of california have different limits than others. LA is the strictest.

There are three programs - enhanced, regular, and none. Most metro and their surrounding areas are enhanced, most of the central valley is not, and most of the far north has none. There is a map on the BAR's website. Over time, enhanced areas have grown and regular and no check areas have shrunk. I think pretty much all of SoCal is an enhanced area now, until you get out into the desert.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ:This is quite the money making scam, like the pump jockeys in NJ.

I'd check your math. There is not much money in smog shops, as the state regulates maximum charges. Assuming you can smog two cars an hour per tester you're making $100/hr - two cars an hour is ambitious on older cars. It took them 50 minutes to test my XR4Ti on Saturday. That is less than or equal to what most regular auto shops charge, and those shops don't have to buy $20k/ea dynos. If you're in Lancaster you'll make a living, but if you're in downtown LA or SF you need to have some volume or a sideline business to pay the rent. It's an annoyance for the consumer, but it's hardly a racket.

Edit: I'll add - You're new to CA so I guess you get a pass, but if you were in LA 15 or 20 years ago you'd appreciate what the program has done for this state, especially in LA. Driving over the Grapevine into Valencia in the '90s was an unpleasant experience. You wouldn't know how bad it was then based on how good it is now.

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 12-29-2014).]

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: I'd check your math. There is not much money in smog shops, as the state regulates maximum charges. Assuming you can smog two cars an hour per tester you're making $100/hr - two cars an hour is ambitious on older cars. It took them 50 minutes to test my XR4Ti on Saturday. That is less than or equal to what most regular auto shops charge, and those shops don't have to buy $20k/ea dynos. If you're in Lancaster you'll make a living, but if you're in downtown LA or SF you need to have some volume or a sideline business to pay the rent. It's an annoyance for the consumer, but it's hardly a racket. Edit: I'll add - You're new to CA so I guess you get a pass, but if you were in LA 15 or 20 years ago you'd appreciate what the program has done for this state, especially in LA. Driving over the Grapevine into Valencia in the '90s was an unpleasant experience. You wouldn't know how bad it was then based on how good it is now.

With newer vehicles, all you do is hook up an OBD II reader to the car, and charge people $45. The equipment must pay for itself quite quickly. I also had to go to three shops before I found one that could do pre-96 cars.

The program probably isn't all that effective on actual pollution. Most cars put out hardly anything anymore. All the biggest polluters, are exempt from testing, like pre-75 vehicles and pre-97 diesels, and large trucks. THOSE are where the vast majority of the pollution comes from, and they get a free pass. 15 or 20 years ago, vehicles on average produced a lot more pollution, especially the larger trucks that are now out of service.

That and a number of other factors are far more likely to be the problems:

-HOV lanes that can only be used by a few people, causing congestion on the rest of the lanes on those freeways/highways

-Not enough lanes on any highway for the amount of traffic, causing people to be constantly in traffic idling during the rush hours

-Poorly timed traffic lights, constantly having to stop at each one wastes time and fuel.

-Front license plates increasing drag on the front ends of cars. Getting rid of these eyesores would be a great green initiative.

The problems with California could be easily fixed, if people here could pull their heads out of their asses for a minute and stop thinking (VERY incorrectly) that they're the most advanced civilization in the country. Nobody seems to realize California is, in fact, the laughing stock of the country?

According to the map, I am in an 'Enhanced' smog check area, so it did meet LA standards.

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov...s/Program_Areas.html

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ:The problems with California could be easily fixed, if people here could pull their heads out of their asses for a minute and stop thinking (VERY incorrectly) that they're the most advanced civilization in the country. Nobody seems to realize California is, in fact, the laughing stock of the country?

It's a terrible place for sure... gotta wonder why you're here...

[This message has been edited by thesameguy (edited 12-29-2014).]

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: It's a terrible place for sure... gotta wonder why you're here...

It's all Tesla's fault..... how ironic..

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: It's a terrible place for sure... gotta wonder why you're here...

I'm here because work begged me to come, and it should look good on a resume. That and I like working with these guys, and the projects I work on. The only good thing about California is the weather. The cost of living here is INSANE, and it feels like it's one law away from becoming 'zee soviet socialist people's republic of kalifornia'. Steal from the almost-rich and redistribute to the poor, THEN take all of it away from both of them, while the uber-rich point and laugh. A state with GREAT potential, ruined by politicians and sheeple who think they're smart.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: This is quite the money making scam, like the pump jockeys in NJ.

Wrong. "Pump jockeys" have little to do w/ gas prices in NJ and NJ Law makes self-serve illegal.
NJ gas is often cheaper in many areas than PA NY and DE and all allows self-serve. Areas in NJ w/ higher prices often have higher taxes from county/city, higher zone pricing, etc. Before current price drop, Many time DE and PA drivers go to NJ fill up. Big trucks SUV and RV can save more than enough money even bridge tolls added to gas price. When I drive in NJ, I fill up the tank in NJ before I go over DE river bridges.

But, you waste time waiting for the guy to get off his ass and get to your car, running back and forth with the cash or credit card, and hoping he remembers to put the gas cap back on and tighten it. Many times I had a guy who didn't speak basic English, and didn't know what 'high octane' or 'premium' or '87 octane' were, depending what car I was driving. HUGE waste of people's time, to create worthless jobs, doing something you can legally do in 48 other states. My father and I drove to New York, and were thrilled we could pump our own gas again. Don't get me started on new england toll roads.

Sounds like you're not gonna be happy anywhere buddy. Best of luck with that.

Traverse City was great, except for the snow and the complete lack of real jobs.

I was there a few days ago....No Snow!

Lots of jobs if you want to run a brew pub or a wine tasting bar......

Yeah, our areas have the same thresholds, both "enhanced."

I second the Ogre that, while I didn't like having someone else pump my gasoline, NJ was cheaper than PA when I was living there. I definitely would fill up before crossing back into PA.

I'm going to try smog test again once I run the Mopar combustion chamber cleaner through.

WINALDL Help?
I was also trying to use WINALDL to help diagnose, but I couldn't understand what ecm function to have it on. I'm under the impression that the '84 ECM is #1226156, but I didn't find that as an option when choosing ecm type in the winaldl window. Any help on aldl diagnostics would be great. I searched but couldn't find the answers.

Thanks,
M

I got WINALDL to work once, it was a real PITA.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-119329.html

I don't think WinALDL supports the 84 Fiero. Think it skipped the 87 and 88 Duke, too.
Been a long time since I looked, however.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: With newer vehicles, all you do is hook up an OBD II reader to the car, and charge people $45. The equipment must pay for itself quite quickly.

Don't forget to factor in that the city of LA has 3 million people; 11 million in LA county so that's about a zillion cars.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: All the biggest polluters, are exempt from testing, like pre-75 vehicles and pre-97 diesels, and large trucks. THOSE are where the vast majority of the pollution comes from, and they get a free pass.

Definitely.

quote It's a terrible place for sure...

Agreed.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: ... it should look good on a resume. The only good thing about California is the weather.

Definitely again but don't forget about the beach when you can find a place to park

quote Originally posted by thesameguy: Sounds like you're not gonna be happy anywhere buddy.

Probably not true. After more than 10 years there, I can assuredly tell you that there are much better places.

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: I like working with these guys, and the projects I work on.

Good luck

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-01-2015).]

quote Originally posted by RWDPLZ: I got WINALDL to work once, it was a real PITA. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-2-119329.html

When I plug in I get a data stream, and the figures that I understand (rpm, speed, temperature,...) seem to be correct. But I also am getting ping values (I didn't think the '84 had a knock sensor) and other data that I don't understand. Does the program have to be on a certain mode to interpret the data correctly?

-Michael