Pennock's Fiero Forum
  Technical Discussion & Questions
  Won't start, no compression

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Email This Page to Someone! | Printable Version


next newest topic | next oldest topic
Won't start, no compression by BOBBY D
Started on: 11-22-2014 02:30 PM
Replies: 30 (484 views)
Last post by: JohnWPB on 12-03-2014 12:54 AM
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 02:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
4 cyl,
Got the car for free. Won't start. PO tells me water pump went and he blew a head gasket.

Got the car home, oil is black. Try to start , turns over but nothing. Check I get spark, I spray starting fluid, still won't start. Check compression, very little to none, I thought the gauge was bad. Get new gauge same results. Pull the engine apart. Get the head off.

Gasket looks good but there is a very bad valve in the head, permenately open.

Anyone think one bad valve could have kept the engine from starting?

Any other things to check before I put it back together?
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Gall757
Member
Posts: 10938
From: Holland, MI
Registered: Jun 2010


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 90
Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 03:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you tested all 4 cylinders, and all 4 have bad compression, then one valve cannot cause all of that. Do all 4 cylinders and piston tops look the same? I would closely examine the other valves.
IP: Logged
NW-Fiero
Member
Posts: 446
From: Pierce County - WA
Registered: Aug 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NW-FieroSend a Private Message to NW-FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Age of engine (miles)? Rings could also be leaking. Head could be warped depending on extent it was run with bad water pump.
IP: Logged
NW-Fiero
Member
Posts: 446
From: Pierce County - WA
Registered: Aug 2008


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 03:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NW-FieroSend a Private Message to NW-FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

NW-Fiero

446 posts
Member since Aug 2008
Age of engine (miles)? Rings could also be leaking. Head could be warped depending on extent it was run with bad water pump.

------------------
Mark
' 85 2m6 3.4PR
In the Great Northwest!

IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32180
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 567
Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 03:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Take off Oil lid, look at rockers, moves or not when try to start car?
No move then cam gear is dead.
See my Cave, Cam Gears

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ditto, timing gear.
IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 05:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Took the valve cover off, every thing moves when starting. As in all the rockers go up and down in a sequence that appears to be correct. Engine has 130,000 miles. Took the head off already. Pistons look good. No holes or anything.

I did find oil in the antifreeze when disconnecting hoses.

IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36251
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BOBBY D:

Check compression, very little to none, I thought the gauge was bad. Get new gauge same results. Pull the engine apart. Get the head off.


Kind of late now (with the head off), but did you try doing a compression test after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder?

[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 11-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-22-2014 11:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

Kind of late now (with the head off), but did you try doing a compression test after squirting a bit of oil in each cylinder?



I did not because the reading on #4 was 0, and #2 was 30. Being that bad I assumed it wouldn't be the rings.

Not exactly true, I did squirt some sea foam in each cylinder when I tried to start it.

[This message has been edited by BOBBY D (edited 11-22-2014).]

IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36251
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post11-23-2014 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by BOBBY D:

I did squirt some sea foam in each cylinder when I tried to start it.


I don't know for sure, but that might've washed off any residue of oil that remained on the rings... and made the compression worse.

I've had good luck (three times so far) putting about a tablespoon of ATF in each cylinder and letting it seep down for a day into the rings before trying to start an engine that's been sitting for years.
IP: Logged
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-23-2014 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Patrick:

I don't know for sure, but that might've washed off any residue of oil that remained on the rings... and made the compression worse.

I've had good luck (three times so far) putting about a tablespoon of ATF in each cylinder and letting it seep down for a day into the rings before trying to start an engine that's been sitting for years.


That trick also worked on a 1940 flat head that had been sitting for 40 years, and seized. ATF and a big pipe wrench.
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
Arns85GT
Member
Posts: 11159
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jul 2003


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 202
Rate this member

Report this Post11-23-2014 12:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I had an engine with no compression, at least not enough to start it. After looking at the options to save it, it went to the recyclers.

Another working used engine is just way cheaper and way less of a PITA.

Arn
IP: Logged
olejoedad
Member
Posts: 17911
From: Clarendon Twp., MI
Registered: May 2004


Feedback score: (5)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-23-2014 02:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for olejoedadSend a Private Message to olejoedadEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bob, you have a PM.
IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 09:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well, I got every thing torn down. Timing was dead on. I am going to assume that the overheating caused the bad valve. Took a straight edge to the head and it is slightly warped. Going to reokace the head with a new / used one. New water pump and put it all back together and see what is what.

If it won't go, a good forum member has a good low milage replacment motor.
IP: Logged
theogre
Member
Posts: 32180
From: USA
Registered: Mar 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 567
Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Overheating can cause:
Dead/dying rings and pistons
crack/warped heads and/or block
blowing head gaskets

Usually does not cause valve issues.

use NEW head bolts! Many OE ones are weak and can break.

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

IP: Logged
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Valve issue could have been caused by engine sitting a long time with that valve in the open position. But since the head will be replaced it's not an issue.
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 551
Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 02:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by tebailey:

Ditto, timing gear.


Yup. perfect symptoms. Just because rockers are moving, dont mean they are when their supposed to. Chains can jump a few teeth.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-24-2014).]

IP: Logged
Patrick
Member
Posts: 36251
From: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 458
Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 02:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PatrickSend a Private Message to PatrickEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Chains can jump a few teeth.


No timing chain on a duke.
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 551
Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Never owned one, sorry. Belts slip, or gears strip then...?
IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-24-2014 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I pulled the cover and the gears line up. Not a timing issue. May have had the wires installed wrong, but I doubt it. I had the diagram out in the garage when I put the new plug wires on.
IP: Logged
jaskispyder
Member
Posts: 21510
From: Northern MI
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (22)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-25-2014 08:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Never owned one, sorry. Belts slip, or gears strip then...?


One gear is fiber and it doesn't slip, it strips... If the valve train is moving the gears are fine (well, good enough to run the vehicle at that moment).
IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-25-2014 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've seen a lot of Dukes with stripped gears, however that doesn't seem to be your problem. Since you have the heads off I would suggest putting some thin oil or trans fluid into the cyls and see if it drains straight through. If it does your rings are shot.
IP: Logged
rogergarrison
Member
Posts: 49601
From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio
Registered: Apr 99


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 551
Rate this member

Report this Post11-25-2014 11:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Every engine I ever had that spun like no compression had slipped time...granted everything I had has a timing chain. Ive never heard of an engine that spun free with any other problem other than something like all broken pistons or no cylinder head. Even extremely worn cylinders or rings will have SOME compression especially if you crank it a few minutes. You could squirt some oil down the plug holes and try cranking it to see if that gives it any compression. If it was a cracked block or head, it would have to be a pretty serious hole that would be obvious.
IP: Logged
jaskispyder
Member
Posts: 21510
From: Northern MI
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (22)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-25-2014 11:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rogergarrison:

Every engine I ever had that spun like no compression had slipped time...granted everything I had has a timing chain. Ive never heard of an engine that spun free with any other problem other than something like all broken pistons or no cylinder head. Even extremely worn cylinders or rings will have SOME compression especially if you crank it a few minutes. You could squirt some oil down the plug holes and try cranking it to see if that gives it any compression. If it was a cracked block or head, it would have to be a pretty serious hole that would be obvious.


He checked the gears visually, no issues, he pulled the head.

IP: Logged
jaskispyder
Member
Posts: 21510
From: Northern MI
Registered: Jun 2002


Feedback score:    (22)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 205
Rate this member

Report this Post11-25-2014 11:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jaskispyderSend a Private Message to jaskispyderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

jaskispyder

21510 posts
Member since Jun 2002
How the timing gear should look... and align (notice dots).



Stripped gear... for other posters...

IP: Logged
Dennis LaGrua
Member
Posts: 15139
From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A.
Registered: May 2000


Feedback score:    (13)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 328
Rate this member

Report this Post11-26-2014 09:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have found that it is far less expensive and time costly to replace a blown engine than to try and rebuild it. Many people who have done engine swaps typically have taken out perfectly good engines and some may have them for sale. Ask around, check the mall. That would be the most economical solution.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

IP: Logged
Arns85GT
Member
Posts: 11159
From: London, Ontario, Canada
Registered: Jul 2003


Feedback score: (1)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 202
Rate this member

Report this Post11-26-2014 12:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Arns85GTSend a Private Message to Arns85GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree Dennis. However, a guy has to learn on his own oft times.

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 11-26-2014).]

IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post11-29-2014 08:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well I have everything back together. Change the oil in the mornining and put a new set of plugs and wires in it and we should be running.


I figured out why it wouldn't run or sputter or anything at all. I opened the manual and not only read but this time I comprehended where cylinder number 1 was. I had it in reverse order. Lol.

IP: Logged
BOBBY D
Member
Posts: 472
From: mentor, ohio, USA
Registered: Feb 2011


Feedback score: (3)
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post12-01-2014 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BOBBY DSend a Private Message to BOBBY DEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Went together easy and started right up.
IP: Logged
tebailey
Member
Posts: 2622
From: Bay City MI
Registered: Jan 2013


Feedback score: N/A
Leave feedback

Rate this member

Report this Post12-01-2014 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for tebaileySend a Private Message to tebaileyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Sounds like you need a new compresion gauge. If the readings you listed were right it wouldn't be running.
IP: Logged
JohnWPB
Member
Posts: 5181
From: West Palm Beach, Florida
Registered: May 2009


Feedback score:    (21)
Leave feedback





Total ratings: 144
Rate this member

Report this Post12-03-2014 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JohnWPBClick Here to visit JohnWPB's HomePageSend a Private Message to JohnWPBEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Something definitely strange going on..... reversed wires / mixed up wires has absolutely nothing at all to do with compression. If you truly had no compression when you started, swapping plug wires would do absolutely nothing to change the compression.

There is some other factor here for sure......

IP: Logged
PFF
System Bot

next newest topic | next oldest topic

All times are ET (US)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Back To Main Page

Advertizing on PFF | Fiero Parts Vendors
PFF Merchandise | Fiero Gallery | Ogre's Cave
Real-Time Chat | Fiero Related Auctions on eBay



Copyright (c) 1999, C. Pennock