I talked to Ryan today and he said that I should use the LS1 MAF and get the Knock sensor from the Shelby Series 1 4.0.
So, this is the confusing part, who do I listen to, are you using the N* MAF and Knock sensor ??
I know everyones build is a little different but I don't want reinvent the wheel or spend many $$$$ trying to tune it.
the MAF isn't really a huge deal, when you tune the car (or have it tuned) the tuner will fine tune the MAF table. the knock sensor is tricky though, because you can't exactly call up the dealer and get a part number for a shelby series 1. I would run the OBD2 N* sensors and call it a day. FWIW, Orielly's lists the 2000 N* knock sensor as an interchange with the 01-02 Aurora 4.0.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
I talked to Ryan today and he said that I should use the LS1 MAF and get the Knock sensor from the Shelby Series 1 4.0.
So, this is the confusing part, who do I listen to, are you using the N* MAF and Knock sensor ??
I know everyones build is a little different but I don't want reinvent the wheel or spend many $$$$ trying to tune it.
Like Eric said, the Aurora and Northstar use the same knock sensor. I haven't had mine retuned with the OBDII knock sensor. I'll share info when I do.
Ryan is probably asking you to use the LS1 MAF because he has tables he's pretty sure will work with that sensor... which means he can deliver you a working PCM. It's still best to have it dialed in on the dyno, however.
The Northstar MAF bolts directly to the throttle body, so it's much easier to package and has better response than the remotely mounted LS1 sensor. Northstars with that MAF are closer to the 3800's than LS1's in terms of the MAF/MAP balance in the tune for that reason. The more closely coupled MAF makes the engine easier to tune.
When AJ put my LS1/Shelby program together, we started with the LS1 MAF. On his final tune, we switched back to the Stock N* MAF. We used the stock N* knock sensor for both tunes.
The OBDII Northstar doesn't have a hose barb... it's just flat with the holes for the three screws that hold the MAF housing on. The MAF housing has the barb for the 3.5" intake hose... since you have to bolt up the Northstar MAF housing anyway (or do *extra* work not to use it at all), it doesn't make any sense not to use it.
Originally posted by Captain Tuna: It was stated earlier that all one has to do is just swap a Holley for and LS1 ECM. I think I'd like to see a wiring diagram of the LS1 with a pinout of the input/output plug? I don't think it's quite that simple. Anyone got a diagram they can share?
sorry, just got around to this. this is a connector face diagram for a 2001 Trans AM if you need something more specific, LMK and I'll see what I can do....
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
sorry, just got around to this. this is a connector face diagram for a 2001 Trans AM if you need something more specific, LMK and I'll see what I can do....
'1998 Oldsmobile Shelby" is the application to look up for diagrams and emissions info.
'1998 Oldsmobile Shelby" is the application to look up for diagrams and emissions info.
unfortunately, my data source doesn't have the Shelby info specifically.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
What you need is a Windows machine that runs XP and has a SERIAL port. I suggest that you go to eBay and try to pick up an old Dell latitude laptop. Many of these have been refurbished and some still run XP. These old Latitude series computers can be had for $50 or less. I keep two or three around for this purpose. Forget that they run XP and it's no longer supported. It will only be used to run the Commander Software and not be connected to the internet. Many newer laptops don't have serial ports. As far as the Commander PRO series software running on Windows 7 or later computers, I can not say. I suggest also that if you have the Commander 950 and it is not the PRO version, you can send it to Alan Johnson for an update. I have also been advised that it is also a good idea to run the Wide Band O2 sensor if you plan to run closed loop. If both our engines are set up the same way, perhaps we can exchange tuning and setup programs. I presume you will be running a manual?
OK. Got the Latitude laptop computer off of eBay. So now I get to be a Windows XP student. Gets here on Friday. Perhaps its time to learn how to tune, eh. My Commander 950 was set up by Alan for the 272 cams and for closed loop(that's what it says in his handwriting on the back of the computer) so I guess I'll have to discover what his 272 tune is and save it before I start messing around with the 950 computer and tuning. I will use this same laptop computer for my Roland sign cutter as well. Ought to be interesting. Have to get the University teaching semester out of the way before I can get to this though. Thanks for the pointers for the windows stuff.
[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 03-24-2015).]
Wanted to ask if anyone has upgraded to the CHRFab 272 cams and if so what to expect as far as performance, tuning requirements and if the fuel economy hit was that noticeable?
I have the 272 reground cams from CHRFab running on an LS1 shelby program. No gains over stock VIN 9 N*. I would imagine that a talented tuner could gain something more than what I have using the same shelby program.
BUT they were made and used for CHRFab's tuning context. The previous owner that I bought the 272 cams from, used his Holley tune and was just above 350HP. He upgraded to the 288's and netted 400 HP on his Holley tune.
[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 04-12-2015).]
I have 288's on the shelf along with an extra set of L37 cams. I'm going to drop the L37 intakes into the exhaust locations on my engine to have dual pattern 266's... then I'll swap in the 288 intakes, then the 288 exhausts. I want to sneak up on a high output without losing much low end torque. Once I have that optimal package identified, I'll decide if I want to go further.
BMW S38's also like more intake duration than exhaust. I read a build thread in which a guy had something like 294 intake and 266 exhaust duration and pushed mid-high 300's from a 3.6 liter inline six. It has throttle per cylinder, so it's even fairly civilized with that big cam.
WILL- I think with the higher compression pistons you have you should not lose much if anything on the low end. If anything it will probably feel like stock on the low end after you do the cam shaft upgrades. I'm daily driving mine and hope to do so for the next two years and really don't want to upgrade cams at the moment but I haven't redone the heads yet so if one of them goes and I have to have those done I will do the cams at that time regardless. I'm just wondering how it will affect everyday drive-ability and fuel economy plus I really like my tune and don't want to have to have that redone either b/c of the cams. That's why I also want to know if I could do the 272's with my current tune and maybe add a N/A water meth kit to augment any potential extra fueling needs if necessary to maintain a decent A/F ratio. I think the current tune is slightly rich anyways, but I'll find out for sure in a month or so when I take it to the dyno and see what it's really putting out.
I know you're not talking to me since you mentioned Holley, but I'm already at 312. I want 350 from my next round of mods--which will be ported Aurora heads and a Y2K intake manifold--but I'm not sure I can get there without cams.
I have russ544's 272 grind tune for the Holley commander 950 pro in which he dynod at 305hp to the wheels or so. Pm me if you want it.
I will keep you in mind if/when the time comes. My Fiero budget is suspended for the next half year or so. Retiring from the Army and have to get a house sold and then a house bought first...
Let's just say that attempt #1 didn't work so well. I'm hoping attempt #2 goes better this weekend. If all else fails I may just drive out to see you so you can have a "no dummy this has to go there and that goes there" moment at my expense
I have 1st gear, but still can't launch hard b/c the TQ converter stall speed is ridiculously low. The Auroa TQ Converter stall speed would be idea, but I'm not sure if I can use it b/c I have the earlier 4T80 with the vicious clutch. So, does anyone know if I can and which one I need? I think JB1 said he was doing this maybe?
I have 1st gear, but still can't launch hard b/c the TQ converter stall speed is ridiculously low. The Auroa TQ Converter stall speed would be idea, but I'm not sure if I can use it b/c I have the earlier 4T80 with the vicious clutch. So, does anyone know if I can and which one I need? I think JB1 said he was doing this maybe?
Good Deal ! Yes I am working on getting the Aurora TQ converter in mine along with the 3.71 trans... I am expecting shift issues and looking for an STS mem-cal, The Aurora uses a smaller TQ converter with a higher stall.. have you tried launching hard while rolling out? or only holding the brake and trying to launch? I remember reading something about torque management and about holding the brake would cause reduced torque, and it was suggested to try launching after rolling out a bit and keeping foot off the brake,,, I will look more into it... As far as you being able to run the same Torque converter , from what I have found and read the 4t80e is pretty much the same through all the years around 2000 or 2001 the wiring changed, FieroSTS said he has ran the 2000 4t80e with a 95 pcm with no issues... He was the one who suggested that if I needed a new trans to look into the Aurora...
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87GTseries 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft) (series II swap in progress) 85GT Northstar/ 4t80e Northstar Rebuild
[This message has been edited by jb1 (edited 08-04-2015).]
Holding the brake and trying to raise the rpm's is futile. The stall speed is stupid low. It just bogs for a sec and then takes off. The best way I have found so far is to just floor it without holding the brake. It's aggravating though b/c I know I'm losing at least .5 on everything. If my pcm can run the later years 4T80E then I may just get a rebuilt one of those with the aurora tq converter. I have to do some more research... Thanks for the input
Turns out the case half seal on my '95 Aurora block is trash. Surprise, surprise. It's begun leaking like a sieve, so I'll absolutely have to fix it.
I found this, which has a few good pictures, but lacks details. I know I need to replace the oil manifold plate and use a bead of GM's #12478521 RTV to reseal everything as per the GM TSB. I only hope I can pull the bottom end apart without having to disassemble half of the car.
I see a mention of a 'new' oil manifold. What does this mean to me and my '95 block? Do I need to buy a certain plate so that it will fit?
What else should I be replacing? Anything else to look out for? Thanks for the help.
P.S. I broke the handle off of my oil dipstick. Where the hell do I find a new one?
Turns out the case half seal on my '95 Aurora block is trash. Surprise, surprise. It's begun leaking like a sieve, so I'll absolutely have to fix it.
I found this, which has a few good pictures, but lacks details. I know I need to replace the oil manifold plate and use a bead of GM's #12478521 RTV to reseal everything as per the GM TSB. I only hope I can pull the bottom end apart without having to disassemble half of the car.
I see a mention of a 'new' oil manifold. What does this mean to me and my '95 block? Do I need to buy a certain plate so that it will fit?
What else should I be replacing? Anything else to look out for? Thanks for the help.
P.S. I broke the handle off of my oil dipstick. Where the hell do I find a new one?
Not having an issue with the heads, just the case half seal.
Sorry about that. I though they had the entire rebuild there. If you search You Tube there is a video on there somewhere with the entire engine overhauled. They take it all the way down and build it all the way back...
No worries...appreciate the help. I'll see if I can find that video.
For what it's worth, I crawled under there yesterday and it sort of looks like I'll have enough clearance to pull everything apart without removing the engine, cradle or transmission. So that's nice...
Also, somebody asked about the Shelby diagrams. Here they are. I have high-res GIFs as well as a PDF list of the two PCM connectors and their corresponding pinouts, if somebody would like them in an e-mail.
[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 08-05-2015).]
Turns out the case half seal on my '95 Aurora block is trash. Surprise, surprise. It's begun leaking like a sieve, so I'll absolutely have to fix it.
I found this, which has a few good pictures, but lacks details. I know I need to replace the oil manifold plate and use a bead of GM's #12478521 RTV to reseal everything as per the GM TSB. I only hope I can pull the bottom end apart without having to disassemble half of the car.
I see a mention of a 'new' oil manifold. What does this mean to me and my '95 block? Do I need to buy a certain plate so that it will fit?
What else should I be replacing? Anything else to look out for? Thanks for the help.
P.S. I broke the handle off of my oil dipstick. Where the hell do I find a new one?
The oil manifold plate, stud headed bolts, windage tray and oil pickup all changed as a group in '96 or '98. Expect to pay a bit over $100 for an oil plate.
For the case halves, you want Loctite 518 - anaerobic gasket replacement. Use replacement seals with dabs of RTV at the ends, as instructed by the book, but run a very small bead/thin film of the anaerobic sealant on either side of the rubber seal. As you can see from the photos at the link above, my case half isn't leaking.
Found the #12581822 Oil Plate, the #12586450 Windage Tray and the #3546580 Pickup Tube on GMPartsDirect.com Decent prices, even. The oil plate is only $89. Are these part numbers sounding correct? I can't seem to find the bolts listed anywhere. I thought they were Torque-To-Yield, but maybe not. The thread is M10x1.5, according to TimeSert. How long are they? Grade 8, or are they some kind of special alloy?
[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 08-11-2015).]
Found the main bolts after a few days. They're still available brand new from GM (GMPartsDirect again).
The non-studded bolts are #3542310 at $2.09 apiece and the stud-head bolts are #3542311 at $1.54 apiece, so the bolt with more material is cheaper. Go figure. You also need to buy 5 at a time as they only sell 5-packs. Well, looks like I found all of the parts I need to get this done.
...and about the oil dipstick. It would seem that the part number for my 1995 AURORA dipstick is #12554201, which cross-references specifically with '98-'99 Caddies with Northstars, and has been discontinued by GM. It's pictured and numbered on GMPD's diagram, but it just isn't there in the parts listing below. It is available elsewhere on the internets, from $30-$50. Ouch. Having said that, if I look up a 1995 Cadillac El Dorado (with the 4.6L Northstar, obviously), I find part #3533045 for the dipstick. It's only $13, so I think I'll buy one just to find out. Something about 618MM long in the specifications...anybody care to measure their '96-'99 4.6L dipstick?
[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 08-11-2015).]
As long as the dipstick and the tube match you should be fine...
Edit: I don't know the part numbers right off... but if you get everything to match the same year (say, '98 or '99) then it should all work out. I'm pretty sure they were still using the early style parts in '95, but not sure that '96 was the transition year.
The main bolts are 10mm, and there is a time sert kit for the main bolt holes. It's not as necessary as the head bolt holes, but can help if you tear the engine down in the future.
GM does the 5 pack thing with spark plug hole o-rings... which makes WAY less sense than main bolts. You can buy two main bolt packs to convert an engine or four to start from scratch... You have to build 5 Northstars (or pull the cam covers 5 times) before you don't end up with extra o-rings.
...Accountant logic
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-11-2015).]
As long as the dipstick and the tube match you should be fine...
Edit: I don't know the part numbers right off... but if you get everything to match the same year (say, '98 or '99) then it should all work out. I'm pretty sure they were still using the early style parts in '95, but not sure that '96 was the transition year.
Sweet. I just looked up a 1998 Eldorado on GMPD and found all the appropriate parts. All of the literature I read claimed '96 as the transition year, but I wanted to be safe. The main bolt part numbers came from deep within some Caddy forum...I just used TmeSert's chart to look up the thread before I had found the proper bolts. Thanks for the reassurance...I'm going to order everything tomorrow and try to kill this menace next weekend. Wish me luck.
quote
Originally posted by Will:
GM does the 5 pack thing with spark plug hole o-rings... which makes WAY less sense than main bolts. You can buy two main bolt packs to convert an engine or four to start from scratch... You have to build 5 Northstars (or pull the cam covers 5 times) before you don't end up with extra o-rings.
...Accountant logic
True, but you only need 19 in total of the normal bolts...you still need the one stud-headed bolt in the center main for the pickup tube. I'll have one bolt left over from my purchase of two 5-packs. Oh well.
[This message has been edited by 1986 Fiero GT (edited 08-12-2015).]
True, but you only need 19 in total of the normal bolts...you still need the one stud-headed bolt in the center main for the pickup tube. I'll have one bolt left over from my purchase of two 5-packs. Oh well.
Heh... true. I had 9 on the shelf so I didn't have any extras.
I just wanted to make a quick comment on people saying that the northstar build is rediculously expensive to do. Im pretty far into my swap now and I dont see many more purchases in the future and im only into it for roughly $1000. Thats including buying an entire 99 deville( which I scrapped and got half my money back), megasquirt 2, mshift trans controller, ns300l inserts for head bolts, head gaskets, all pipes and collectors for 180 degree headers, and the rest of the exhaust. Yes it can be expensive but it doesnt have to be.
------------------ Whether you think you can, or you can't, your right (henry ford)
I've got bunches more cash into my build, but then I didn't start with the whole Oldsmobile and I had to buy every single tool that I used because this was my first large scale project. I only paid $300 for this motor, but I definitely got a $300 motor. It runs fine now, but at the very least the case half (and probably the current oil manifold) are leaking like a sieve. I'm spending about $150-$200 to fix the current leakage issues because of all of the parts that are required to be replaced to 'upgrade' your oil manifold as it's a use-once part, required to be replaced. If I really get curious and pull the heads to inspect some stuff, it'll cost me at least $1,000 to put it back together what with the inserts, seals that are required and any damaged parts that I may have to replace.
For what it's worth I did have the valve covers off at some point, and the motor looked beautiful from there. No real appreciable cam wear or damaged valvetrain components.
I just don't trust those damn head bolts.
Still, the Northstar is such a cool motor and sounds amazing at 7K right behind your head. It's worth it to deal with a few little quirks.
Heh... true. I had 9 on the shelf so I didn't have any extras.
There's a lot of paranoia on the Cadillac forums about reusing old main bolts because of stretch 'n' snap. I suppose I could just measure them to be sure. You didn't have any issues with your main bolts, did you Will? I mean, you've been in there at least twice now, right?
