I spoke with Justin at FS this morning about my 84' SE's L4 engine's recent lack of throttle response and poor MPG. He suggested the EGR, as the car sat for 17 years etc. The current unit appears to be OEM, so I took it to O'Reilly's to have the ECM read, which gave the following codes:
14-I flushed the coolant, added a thermostat as there wasn't one installed, refilled with Dexcool, gauge never reads over 160 since. 54- PO replaced the fuel pump, cleaned tank before I bought it. Never reset the ECM?
The new EGR didn't come with washers as referenced here Ogre's Emissions It's a BWD branded unit.
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks: 14-I flushed the coolant, added a thermostat as there wasn't one installed, refilled with Dexcool, gauge never reads over 160 since.
You replaced the green stuff with the red/pink/orange dexcool? Are you absolutely certain you got all of the old antifreeze out first? Mixing them can result in bad corrosion problems.
You replaced the green stuff with the red/pink/orange dexcool? Are you absolutely certain you got all of the old antifreeze out first? Mixing them can result in bad corrosion problems.
Let it drain for an hour, flushed with clean water till it ran clear, the coolant pipe hex bolts looked seized, I didn't want to open a can of worms that day. But the gauge has read 160 since I added a thermostat and flushed, I'm thinking the sensor is bad. It only read 220 when there wasn't a thermostat installed, which was right after I bought it, then discovered there wasn't one installed.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-20-2014).]
How do I get the right EGR bolt off? Workshop manual just says take the EGR off, no diagram or sequence. Wrench hits the dog bone or the valve cover, which has to come off to replace the gasket while I'm in here.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-20-2014).]
I got it off, took some odd angle finagling but it's off. The stock EGR looks the exact same as the BWD replacement, I do not see any washers. Maybe that's in reference to a later model L4?
Got the valve cover gasket replaced, the EGR, PCV, new plugs/wires. Had to order new crankcase breather element, runs much better but has ever so slight hesitation on take off. I checked all the vacuum lines and connectors, all are securely connected. I'll have the codes read again tomorrow to see if some/all have cleared, I left the Positive disconnected for 20 mins to clear ECM.
The plugs were pretty white tipped, and corroded on the base. Guess he replaced those some time back, the plug wires looked pretty cheap as well.
Originally posted by mckaymotoworks: The plugs were pretty white tipped, and corroded on the base. Guess he replaced those some time back, the plug wires looked pretty cheap as well.
Running lean/hot. Probably had (or still have) a blown head gasket and/or cracked head, from overheating. Do you get white colored smoke out of the exhaust while it's running? Bubbles in the coolant overfill tank?
Not to get ahead of myself, but if the head is cracked, what are the chances of locating a SD4 head? I'd like to build the 150hp version if I wind up getting that far into it. Not interested in doing a swap, no time or space for such a project. How hard is it to source the needed SD4 parts?
Or would a Quad or Eco Tec swap be easier. Not looking for massive HP, I like peppy, spirited with great handling.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-21-2014).]
Oil looks fine, see no evidence of coolant nor smell any.
However, I did add coolant a few days ago to the empty reservoir, when the car is running it's leaking from the driver's side, opposite of the tank. But I do not see any evidence of coolant in the engine area. I'll have the system pressure tested, see if I can find the source of the leak. As stated, only happen when I fill the reservoir.
Car did well on the commute yesterday, 50 miles, then the sluggish performance reappeared on the drive home. Feels like the car is running too rich. I have yet to replace the O2 or temp sensor which I will this weekend. I stopped by to have the codes read to see if any had reset and which ones were still shown. Young guy did not know how to use the machine correctly.
So I reset the ECM last night, performance was back as I expected since the codes were cleared. Went to another O'Reilly's, no codes were displaying at that time. Lasted for about 20 miles this time, sluggishness is now back. Obviously the O2 and temp sensor need replacing, but with the code 51 referencing the ECM, how can I test it to eliminate or determine if I need to replace it?
Car did well on the commute yesterday, 50 miles, then the sluggish performance reappeared on the drive home. Feels like the car is running too rich. I have yet to replace the O2 or temp sensor which I will this weekend. I stopped by to have the codes read to see if any had reset and which ones were still shown. Young guy did not know how to use the machine correctly.
So I reset the ECM last night, performance was back as I expected since the codes were cleared. Went to another O'Reilly's, no codes were displaying at that time. Lasted for about 20 miles this time, sluggishness is now back. Obviously the O2 and temp sensor need replacing, but with the code 51 referencing the ECM, how can I test it to eliminate or determine if I need to replace it?
Please double check your codes and read them at home, or on your travels. You only need a paper clip to do so... it is free and more exact than the odd codes you are getting from the store. We need the list of new codes. A bad O2 sensor or temp sensor will cause issues, but knowing exact codes you have will help. Otherwise, you are shooting in the dark and spending money on things that don't need replacing.
If the ECM can't be read, the car should go into a "limp mode". Others can tell you how to check the ECM and wires going to the ECM and that may be where to start. You could have a bad power supply, or ground, or just a bad connection. Did you unplug the ecm connections and plug them back in? Also, is your battery connected properly (good, tight connections)?
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 03-25-2014).]
Does the car have all the original exhaust equipment on it? Maybe bad cat and/or muffler?
Yes, forgot to mention that but do suspect that as well. Almost everything on this car is original, so I'm just working out the kinks in order of importance. Can't decide to replace it with the Ocelot system since I plan to rebuild later, or just stick a big box replacement on it for now.
I'm sure the cat is clogged some at the very least, but with my ECM reset test and the performance coming back for a short time, I also know that something is setting the ECM into running the car rich, which seems to be a bigger issue at the moment with a complete replacement of the exhaust the very next, or at the same time.
Yes, forgot to mention that but do suspect that as well. Almost everything on this car is original, so I'm just working out the kinks in order of importance. Can't decide to replace it with the Ocelot system since I plan to rebuild later, or just stick a big box replacement on it for now.
I'm sure the cat is clogged some at the very least, but with my ECM reset test and the performance coming back for a short time, I also know that something is setting the ECM into running the car rich, which seems to be a bigger issue at the moment with a complete replacement of the exhaust the very next, or at the same time.
If it drives well for 50 miles, then the cat is probably fine. The cat in the 4cyl is not the same as the V6, which once it melts, it clogs up the exhaust as it breaks apart.
Please double check your codes and read them at home, or on your travels. You only need a paper clip to do so... it is free and more exact than the odd codes you are getting from the store. We need the list of new codes. A bad O2 sensor or temp sensor will cause issues, but knowing exact codes you have will help. Otherwise, you are shooting in the dark and spending money on things that don't need replacing.
If the ECM can't be read, the car should go into a "limp mode". Others can tell you how to check the ECM and wires going to the ECM and that may be where to start. You could have a bad power supply, or ground, or just a bad connection. Did you unplug the ecm connections and plug them back in? Also, is your battery connected properly (good, tight connections)?
Battery is tight, that's the only way I have found yet to reset the ECM. I looked for the ECM connector itself detailed in an older post Ogre responded to, but I couldn't find it by appearance, and that thread never mentioned where it was exactly. Also had difficulty locating it in the workshop manual. I read about the paperclip test and can do that this weekend. We did get it to read the other day after pulling the connector in and out a few times, but agree it should be easier, maybe there is a short and the paperclip method would be more accurate in this case.
If it drives well for 50 miles, then the cat is probably fine. The cat in the 4cyl is not the same as the V6, which once it melts, it clogs up the exhaust as it breaks apart.
That's good to know, just went through that with my wife's 07' Galant. I replaced that PITA cat/header combo and the secondary cat. It looked like the bottom of a grill at the end of summer when we cut it open. Regardless, it will need to be replaced at some point, but obviously there are more pressing issues that I need to get to the bottom of.
My reset trick did not work for the ride home. Total slug, and the ECM via paperclip keeps reading 12 repeatedly. I sprayed some DEOX-5 , still no go. Just Flashes 12x3, then 12 again repeatedly.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-25-2014).]
My reset trick did not work for the ride home. Total slug, and the ECM via paperclip keeps reading 12 repeatedly. I sprayed some DEOX-5 , still no go. Just Flashes 12x3, then 12 again repeatedly.
If it only flashes 12, then there are no codes stored in the ECM.
Does it only run poorly when hot? Or does it run poor at times from total cold start too (after it's been sitting for several hours for example)?
It's seemingly running rough regardless. As I said, I replaced the EGR, new plugs, wires and it was running quite well until about 70 miles later. That ECM reset trick I was using the past few days no longer worked at all on the ride home after I left positive disconnected for a few hours.
I looked over vacuum lines, all still connected as before. Racking my brain to think what could have changed, even the previous temp sensor code is no longer displaying as before, which I've longed suspected due to the low reading.
im not sure if its okay to use dex cool in that old of a gm vehicle... I have heard that if you mix the dex cool with standard green they can gel.
ALSO: the coolant temp sensor IS a very important sensor, it can cause the widest range of unusual characteristics to happen, including the throwing of other codes. replace that first so your ecm can adjust the air/fuel mix accordingly, along with an O2 sensor.
I flushed the old coolant out with the hose, till clear water ran out the drain. Then let it drain another hour before mixing 70/30. But you're right that sensor does need to be replaced and I've read up on its importance with the ECM as you've described.
My reset trick did not work for the ride home. Total slug, and the ECM via paperclip keeps reading 12 repeatedly. I sprayed some DEOX-5 , still no go. Just Flashes 12x3, then 12 again repeatedly.
You didn't drive with the paper clip in, did you? With the paper clip in and running, the car will not advance the timing.
Ok, take paper clip out, take it for a short drive and see if you get new codes.
Or at least run it in the driveway. If you are not getting any new codes, then you have a fuel delivery issue, or even a bad spark (wire/plug/cap) (or egr). The car's computer is working and the sensors are working.... at least that is what the ecm thinks. Now, you could have a bad sensor and the computer doesn't see it as bad, but let's work through this...
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 03-26-2014).]
I have a 50 mile commute this morning, I'll test it when I get to work though it seems a code should have thrown on the way home yesterday since it started again with the symptoms yesterday. Find it really odd the ECM reset worked even two times, then no longer. Diagnostics is fun.......said no one ever.
If you don't get any codes, then I would check the plugs/wires and egr. Also check the fuel spray pattern.
I can't remember... is this an '88? If so, you could have a bad coil module. I had one crack that caused the car to run bad, but only in snowy weather. I doubt this is the case, but something to look at if everything else checks out.
84' SE. I replaced the wires and plugs Friday with ACDelco bits, but will check plugs when I get home. Dist cap is newer, appeared in good shape, rotor button looked brand new. PO told me he recently swapped bit I have a ACD backup
How do you check spray pattern? He said he replaced pump and filter due to sitting for 17 years. I've put about 2k on it since then.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-26-2014).]
Check that the wires are good, and connected properly. Check the plugs. I had an '84 that ended up having a bad wire (mis-fire), even though the wires were new.
Spray pattern.... should be a nice cone shaped spray, not dribbling out when you give it a little gas. But let's focus on ecm codes before checking these areas.
It's always the simplest of things. one of the plug boots had come off, good call. So back to where I started after EGR, but the car is still not fully up to snuff. I checked the ALDL, no codes still. Though much better, when I floor it, the car isn't very responsive even for what I think a 2.5 with 3 speed slush box would normally give if fully functional. I do expect something as it did sit up for 17 years, I think what kind of shape I or any object would be in from sitting around inactive that long.
If I have enough daylight when I get off, I will do a compression test. How do I check spray pattern, air cover off with the butterfly open?Also, what are the chances it's the TPS? Sometimes it doesn't sound like the RPM's match the throttle I am giving it. Seems to shift early or late or maybe I am nuts.
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-26-2014).]
EGR test... when running, pull up on the underside of the top (with gloves on) and if the car stumbles/stalls, it is probably fine. If no change, then EGR is screwed up. Now, I think you replaced it and maybe it is the wrong setup.... I will have to go back and re-read.
As for the spray pattern, just take air cleaner lid off and watch the spray pattern at idle and when moving the throttle.
You can just keep an eye on the Check Engine light, as that will light up when you have a code. If it does, check it and let us know what it is.
[This message has been edited by jaskispyder (edited 03-26-2014).]
Of course it's not, I expect that. :-) But something seems off in it's throttle response, maybe the cable stretch issue? I can check the butterfly position when I look at spray pattern.
Also, what are the chances it's the TPS? Sometimes it doesn't sound like the RPM's match the throttle I am giving it. Seems to shift early or late or maybe I am nuts. It's the one mechanical sensor correct?
[This message has been edited by mckaymotoworks (edited 03-26-2014).]
Im having the exact same problems! Replace the Tps and let me know what happens thats the last thing I have to check I will see about replacing it myself tomorrow and give you an update!
Injector has a nice fan spray pattern. Car sounds like it a revs a ton more manually pressing the throttle linkage as opposed to the pedal. Not referencing the open throttle body noise, but the engine itself. I'll have to wait till the wife is home to operate the pedal to see if the butterfly is completely vertical when fully pressed. Have to wait till this weekend to do compression test, but motor sounds healthy when revved.
The transmission and the throttle feel out of sync to me. I've driven some pretty slow cars, but this one feels dangerous at times trying to pass traffic. I can't see that being a big seller, I do understand the car was for economy and not a road rocket. But something feels amiss. I think 20+ cars of all varieties in my past gives that some credibility. Including a Fiat Spider 124.....
Not that thankfully, just feels like the gears aren't shifting to the proper spot to match the RPM's/speed. The more I stare at this TPS, it does seem the TPS could be the culprit.
