Someone on here installed some on either a 4.9 or N* . I don`t remember which but talk about a bundle of snakes. They were custom made. The pre-made ones I have seen look like they would stick out too far and hit at least on the firewall side.
Doing a engine swap on a Fiero which is being converted into a kit car, I extended the chasis in the engine compartment in order to put a bigger engine in and to have the exact length of the car replica.
Doing a engine swap on a Fiero which is being converted into a kit car, I extended the chasis in the engine compartment in order to put a bigger engine in and to have the exact length of the car replica.
Does that mean you're going longitudinal for the engine? Also, which engine?
That Northstar sounds weird. I don't think 180 degree headers make much sense on a Northstar, given the firing order.
I don't think they are necessary on an LSx engine (or on a classic SBC with the firing order changed to be the same as the LSx) either. With a little design work, a nice set of Tri-Y headers should be able to get the same sound, and with a simpler exhaust routing.
That Northstar sounds weird. I don't think 180 degree headers make much sense on a Northstar, given the firing order.
I don't think they are necessary on an LSx engine (or on a classic SBC with the firing order changed to be the same as the LSx) either. With a little design work, a nice set of Tri-Y headers should be able to get the same sound, and with a simpler exhaust routing.
That Northstar sounds weird. I don't think 180 degree headers make much sense on a Northstar, given the firing order.
I don't think they are necessary on an LSx engine (or on a classic SBC with the firing order changed to be the same as the LSx) either. With a little design work, a nice set of Tri-Y headers should be able to get the same sound, and with a simpler exhaust routing.
No kidding? It sounds weird. You should be a doctor or politician, with your ability to recognize a N* with equal length, long tube, 180 headers sounds different than normal Northstars. How does the N* firing order make 180 headers any more, or less, beneficial? I'll answer that for you, although it alters their specific design slightly, they are just as beneficial as they are on most every other American V8.
Of course they aren't necessary. Neither is a V8. But they are still hugely beneficial, and you'll never match the sound or performance gains wth any other set of headers or manifolds. Not even with your shitty tri-Y's. But you've probably never designed, or built, headers.
Originally posted by RobertGT: No kidding? It sounds weird. You should be a doctor or politician, with your ability to recognize a N* with equal length, long tube, 180 headers sounds different than normal Northstars. How does the N* firing order make 180 headers any more, or less, beneficial? I'll answer that for you, although it alters their specific design slightly, they are just as beneficial as they are on most every other American V8.
Of course they aren't necessary. Neither is a V8. But they are still hugely beneficial, and you'll never match the sound or performance gains wth any other set of headers or manifolds. Not even with your shitty tri-Y's. But you've probably never designed, or built, headers.
And obviously you design, arrange, and build headers for a living, with that comment. Maybe a basic reading comprehension course could help though.
That Northstar sounds weird, because the headers aren't made correctly for it. It doesn't sound like a typical 180 degree header engine either. It sounds like the primaries are paired wrong to make 180 degree headers. I never said whether they were or were not beneficial, or whether they were or were not necessary.
And I don't have any "shitty tri-Y's" as you so eloquently put it. Nor did I mean the typical tri-y header config that generally comes as tri-y headers for an SBC.
Actually, yes, I do. First thing you've been right about yet.
N* firing order is 1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8. So we'd want to pair 1-7-4-6, and 2-3-5-8. N* has even cylinders on the front bank, odds on the back and arranged from balancer to flex plate. Seems to me they were actually designed/built properly.
[This message has been edited by RobertGT (edited 03-12-2014).]
I think that N* sounds nice, but needs more cam. I agree a little with both of you on this one, here's the thing, yes, tri-y's or 4-1's won't match a well designed 180 setup, but there's more to the header then primary length and pulse match, bends also make a difference in impedance in each primary, so, while a well designed 180 will perform really well, it's much harder to build one that will make the most of the design, whereas a 4-1 or tri-y is easier to optimize in the given space. as with almost all automotive engineering, the biggest problem lies in the packaging.
------------------ 1st class A**hole.
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
Actually, yes, I do. First thing you've been right about yet.
N* firing order is 1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8. So we'd want to pair 1-7-4-6, and 2-3-5-8. N* has even cylinders on the front bank, odds on the back and arranged from balancer to flex plate. Seems to me they were actually designed/built properly.
Building on this... The Northstar firing order and the LS1 firing order ARE THE SAME, except that the LS1 has the left bank forward while the Northstar has the right bank forward. That's why the pairs are reversed relative to the LS1.
Tri-Y and 180 degree collectors are not even close in functionality.
But 180-degree headers for both of them will be routed the same. On the LSx, to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses, you'll need cylinders 1-7-6-4 on one header, and 8-2-5-3 on the other. With the NorthStar, you'll have cylinders 1-7-4-6 on one header, and 2-3-5-8 on the other.
Let's look at the SBC too. The firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. So to get even exhaust pulses, you'll need to have cylinders 1-4-6-7 on one header, and 8-3-5-2 on the other.
Interestingly enough, all three of these engines will need the same four cylinders grouped together on either header to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses.
But 180-degree headers for both of them will be routed the same. On the LSx, to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses, you'll need cylinders 1-7-6-4 on one header, and 8-2-5-3 on the other. With the NorthStar, you'll have cylinders 1-7-4-6 on one header, and 2-3-5-8 on the other.
Let's look at the SBC too. The firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. So to get even exhaust pulses, you'll need to have cylinders 1-4-6-7 on one header, and 8-3-5-2 on the other.
Interestingly enough, all three of these engines will need the same four cylinders grouped together on either header to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses.
I never said the routing for 180 degree headers would be significantly different between them. I was pointing out that the firing orders were not the same, though Will said they were.
I did say the firing order on the LSx engines does lend itself to having very nice tri-y headers, if they are designed properly. And I think with the proper design, it might be possible to get them to sound as good as 180 degree headers.
We all know 180 degree headers in a Fiero is a nightmare to fit. And then a nightmare when you have to do any work, like change the plugs (though at least the N* solves that problem with the plugs in top of the heads).
Originally posted by dobey: I never said the routing for 180 degree headers would be significantly different between them. I was pointing out that the firing orders were not the same, though Will said they were.
I realize that. But there was something I wanted to point out, as well.
Eh... I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet.
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
But 180-degree headers for both of them will be routed the same. On the LSx, to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses, you'll need cylinders 1-7-6-4 on one header, and 8-2-5-3 on the other. With the NorthStar, you'll have cylinders 1-7-4-6 on one header, and 2-3-5-8 on the other.
Let's look at the SBC too. The firing order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. So to get even exhaust pulses, you'll need to have cylinders 1-4-6-7 on one header, and 8-3-5-2 on the other.
Interestingly enough, all three of these engines will need the same four cylinders grouped together on either header to get even 180-degree exhaust pulses.
Yeah, specifically, the outer two from each bank will be paired with the inner two from the other bank.
quote
Originally posted by dobey: I did say the firing order on the LSx engines does lend itself to having very nice tri-y headers,
What makes you say that? The best that can be done with a Tri-Y design is to get one of the secondaries to have evenly timed pulses, while the other one will have consecutive pulses... I'm slightly curious about how well such a setup would work if the consecutive secondary were larger than the timed primary, since the consecutive pulses are the factor that make conventional headers sub-optimal for cross-plane V8's.
It's interesting that this subject is being discussed. I built these headers 10 or 15 years ago and I could never get the heat out of the engine compartment. The rear window got too hot to touch. I've got the engine out and am looking at the Sanderson CC1-34 shorties. Yes, using the shorties may cost a little bit of power but I'll sacrifice that for practicality.
I saw your old page on hotrodders.net IIRC... That's a lot of heat way up high in the engine bay, especially with the main exhaust pipes coming around the front of the engine and following the stock routing.
I would do everything I could to keep the 180s on that setup, going to the Sandersons like everyone else would be a huge waste. Have you considered wrapping the pipes? That'd help tremendously, did that on my turbo car.
Originally posted by Will: What makes you say that? The best that can be done with a Tri-Y design is to get one of the secondaries to have evenly timed pulses, while the other one will have consecutive pulses... I'm slightly curious about how well such a setup would work if the consecutive secondary were larger than the timed primary, since the consecutive pulses are the factor that make conventional headers sub-optimal for cross-plane V8's.
Parings of 1-7, 8-2, 6-4, 5-3. With appropriately sized primaries and secondaries, and matching length and curvature for pulse timing in the available space to package the headers and secondaries. It would be similar to the exhaust on that car from Taiwan with the weird exhaust on the 2.8. I think it would sound and flow very good, but I haven't figured out and done all the math yet, and am nowhere near close to doing the exhaust for my LS4 swap.
Each primary collector is X _ X _ _ _ _ _ Each secondary collector ends up with X _ X X _ X _ _
That's not equally timed. The primary collectors still act like consecutive pulses, as the exhaust valve events are 180 degrees apart, while being 260+ degrees in duration. A 180 degree collector has the same pulse spacing, but because it collects 4 pipes it's larger than the primary collector for 2 pipes. The secondaries still end up with consecutive pulses. I don't know what weirdness the Taiwan guy set up.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-14-2014).]
Before I jumped ship to the LS(x) platform, I had these mocked up for my old SBC swap. I wanted to keep the clutter of snakes hidden with nice streamlined pipes visible from above.
Probally best you didn't use those pipes. Those run awefully close to the distributor. My bet is it would cause some hiccups.
I mocked it up with the large HEI distributor, but my engine used the small remote coil one. So there was plenty of room for some metal heat shielding. My longer term plans were to convert to the EFI Connection 24X where the distributor just becomes a cam sensor and it used the LS1 ecm with remote mounted coils. Then heat wouldn't be any issue.
Old swap:
EFI Connection 24x distributor on another SBC (HSR with the upper plenum flipped):
