I, for one, would much rather do a little fabrication to swap in a stock, more modern engine to get 200 whp, than to go through the process of rebuilding/modifying an engine and porting iron heads to get there. Porting heads is not something I consider cheap to pay someone to do, nor fun in any way to do myself.
If at some point down the road after the swap was complete I decided that I wanted more power, the capability is there. You? You're already tapped out. All of those modifications that you've done to yours could then be done to the 3500, and significantly more power would be had. I just don't see any benefit to what you've done compared to a full swap.
I like the fact that you've done what you've done because I'm glad that the data is available. IMO, it just further justifies the benefits of starting with an engine that has more potential.
What isn't modern about my engine? I'm running a fresh rebuilt 3400 block with TDC pistons with DIS and a '7730 which is the default setup for a full 3400/3500 swap. I'm even using the stock roller cam. How is my setup less 'modern' than any other run of the mill 3X00 swap? Most people put in USED motors where as all my parts were new.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-23-2014).]
Why on the 5252 dyno sheet does the torque and hp not cross at 5252?
It's crossing at a lower rpm?
The dyno shop didn't take the time to put the two graphs on the same scale. On one side, the scale goes to 250 for HP, on the other it goes to 270 for torque.
What isn't modern about my engine? I'm running a fresh rebuilt 3400 block with TDC pistons with DIS and a '7730 which is the default setup for a full 3400/3500 swap. I'm even using the stock roller cam. How is my setup less 'modern' than any other run of the mill 3X00 swap? Most people put in USED motors where as all my parts were new.
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
In the grand scheme of things:
I made 187 rwhp and 249 ft*lbs with an untuned average a/f ratio of 11.5:1 and a huge intake neck restriction with a distributor and Fiero ECM.
I was talking about your original setup, I had not realized you went to DIS. Never the less, that wasn't the point I was making.
$1400 head porting puts you close full swap territory costwise. Again, I just don't think you saved much work or cost at all and in the end have an engine with less potential.
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 01-23-2014).]
The dyno shop didn't take the time to put the two graphs on the same scale. On one side, the scale goes to 250 for HP, on the other it goes to 270 for torque.
Originally posted by Silicoan86: I was talking about your original setup, I had not realized you went to DIS. Never the less, that wasn't the point I was making.
$1400 head porting puts you close full swap territory costwise. Again, I just don't think you saved much work or cost at all and in the end have an engine with less potential.
Look at it from my perspective. In 2005 when I 'planned' this: There was no documented '7730 ECM swap. A 3400 full swap was rare, if non-existent, and while there were some aftermarket cams for the 3400, none with published specs and I only saw a 5hp gain in the original vehicles that dyno'd the change. So I stuck with the free stock cam which is still a big upgrade over the typical Fiero cam upgrade (HT260). Again this is 2005... My previous 3.4 with 260 cam dyno'd at 149.8 rwhp.
Also, I was able to just throw money at this swap at a regular machinist and regular mechanic for top quality work. I did no physical work myself. It was a simple means to an end. My engine broke the "150rwhp barrier" that most people hit, though Orief built a 205rwhp 3.4 with an H272 cam with heads that flowed a 'mere' 165/135 cfm...which does have more lift than the stock 3400 cam.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 01-23-2014).]
The dyno shop didn't take the time to put the two graphs on the same scale. On one side, the scale goes to 250 for HP, on the other it goes to 270 for torque.
Just have the shop email you the run data files. Dynojet has a viewer for download on their website which allows you to generate your own graphs if you have the run data files.
I agree about the 3.4TDC having very little support. There are cam regrinds available and there is some part swapping between the early and late versions, but other than that, it is what it is. (220HP and a glorious sound )
However, with the advent of vendors like WOT-TECH and Milzy... I would say that the 3100, 3400 and 3500(LX9) have the most aftermarket support.
All though it first appears that the TDC has very little aftermarket support, and that is the case, it doesn't mean the motor isn't worth touching. Most every component that is available for the OHV motors but not the TDC does one of two things. It either increases flow, or reduces driving losses. Increasing flow is great, don't get me wrong, but the TDC starts at a point tough to get an OHV motor at. So there may not be cams out for it, but it takes the biggest came made to get to a stock TDC in terms of performance. Heads are the same, except the TDC heads can be ported also. Mine flow 325/227 at half inch, which is pretty spectacular and untouchable by a 660 2-valve head. And the only valve train component the TDC has are lifters, of which 48g lightweight replacements are available. So the parts that can't be easily modified are the exhaust manifolds. Intakes can be, and have been several times.
So what aftermarket parts does the OHV have that make it so desirable? Can they match a TDC's flow out of the box? And what about if the TDC gets a head job? I don't think I've seen a turbo TDC make under 400 at the wheels, and if I have it's been a while. Mine does well over 400 at 8.7psi.
All though it first appears that the TDC has very little aftermarket support, and that is the case, it doesn't mean the motor isn't worth touching. Most every component that is available for the OHV motors but not the TDC does one of two things. It either increases flow, or reduces driving losses. Increasing flow is great, don't get me wrong, but the TDC starts at a point tough to get an OHV motor at. So there may not be cams out for it, but it takes the biggest came made to get to a stock TDC in terms of performance. Heads are the same, except the TDC heads can be ported also. Mine flow 325/227 at half inch, which is pretty spectacular and untouchable by a 660 2-valve head. And the only valve train component the TDC has are lifters, of which 48g lightweight replacements are available. So the parts that can't be easily modified are the exhaust manifolds. Intakes can be, and have been several times.
So what aftermarket parts does the OHV have that make it so desirable? Can they match a TDC's flow out of the box? And what about if the TDC gets a head job? I don't think I've seen a turbo TDC make under 400 at the wheels, and if I have it's been a while. Mine does well over 400 at 8.7psi.
Stock TDC and stock 3500 make essentially the same power.
That's a nice flow number at .500 lift, but can you get over .400 lift with a reground cam?
Series 8217 has a blue printed TDC with modded intake manifold and abbreviated exhaust putting down ~220 at the wheels. While not extensively modded, it's still mid-pack compared to what the current pushrod engines are putting out. The TDC has gone to 250ish at the wheels with cam timing changes, but that's still not range topping.
*IF* real cams were available, it would a fantastic engine. The same is true of the Northstar.
The TDC is also ~100 lbs heavier than an aluminum head pushrod engine.
All though it first appears that the TDC has very little aftermarket support, and that is the case, it doesn't mean the motor isn't worth touching.
I never said that. Silicoan86 up there is a good friend of mine and he owns flames4me's old car, neither of us think the TDC is not worth touching. His car makes me want to do the TDC instead of the 3500 I already have sitting on a stand in my garage. But that would be stupid, cause I already have all these parts and an engine on a stand in my garage... A bird in the hand, as they say...
Wasn't I the one that said:
quote
Originally posted by carbon: Don't let people tell you that a swap is worthless if it's less than a Supercharged 3800... a 3.4DOHC or a Quad4 swapped Fiero with a manual transmission is an absolute blast to drive on roads. Not to mention the soundtrack...
Oh yeah, I was...
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-24-2014).]
Originally posted by Will: That's a nice flow number at .500 lift, but can you get over .400 lift with a reground cam?
Why yes, indeed you can. (I know, I know....only slightly...on the exhaust cam...and no where near .500 )
SLR Cam specs: INTAKE: Lift: 396 Duration: 220
EXHAUST: Lift: 411 Duration: 228
Here's a good thread about the results those cams had on a Mustang dyno - end results were 230hp and 216 ft-lbs with the cams and an underdrive pulley on an otherwise stock crate motor. I'd love to have seen what it could have done with a short runner intake and a set of tuned headers.
It is unfortunate that the TDC seems to be going away. I think the way most people see it at this point, is that the TDC and the 3500 have very similar power capabilities but the 3500 is lighter, simpler (timing belts seem to be frightening voodoo to most GM enthusiasts), and much more plentiful at this point so it's essentially starting to phase out the TDC as a swap option. As much as I enjoy mine and love to see others swapping them as well, you have to admit that it's hard to look past the 3500's benefits, especially when you see dyno charts like Superdave's.
[This message has been edited by Silicoan86 (edited 01-24-2014).]
Why yes, indeed you can. (I know, I know....only slightly...on the exhaust cam...and no where near .500 )
SLR Cam specs: INTAKE: Lift: 396 Duration: 220
EXHAUST: Lift: 411 Duration: 228
Here's a good thread about the results those cams had on a Mustang dyno - end results were 230hp and 216 ft-lbs with the cams and an underdrive pulley on an otherwise stock crate motor. I'd love to have seen what it could have done with a short runner intake and a set of tuned headers.
It is unfortunate that the TDC seems to be going away. I think the way most people see it at this point, is that the TDC and the 3500 have very similar power capabilities but the 3500 is lighter, simpler (timing belts seem to be frightening voodoo to most GM enthusiasts), and much more plentiful at this point so it's essentially starting to phase out the TDC as a swap option. As much as I enjoy mine and love to see others swapping them as well, you have to admit that it's hard to look past the 3500's benefits, especially when you see dyno charts like Superdave's.
wow, that's pretty nice power and torque for a mostly stock engine! I also like how on the dynograph the operator posted all of the atmospheric conditions too!
------------------ 1st class A**hole.
we're in desperate need of a little more religion to nurse your god-like point of view...
Since it would seem that the bottle neck for big power on 3.4 push rod motor is the heads and intake. Why would nt it work to take the heads from a 3400 or 3100 with aluminum heads and intake and put them on the 2.8 or the 3.4 PR. I have seen on some camaro and firebird sites that this not only bolts up, but makes good power right out of the box. Then if you P&P the aluminum head and intake you would have even more power. I havnt been messing with Fieros very long, but this seems like it would give you the best of both worlds with basically just bolt ons. Am I missing something? Is there some reason this wouldnt work with the Fiero.? Thanks Van
Since it would seem that the bottle neck for big power on 3.4 push rod motor is the heads and intake. Why would nt it work to take the heads from a 3400 or 3100 with aluminum heads and intake and put them on the 2.8 or the 3.4 PR. I have seen on some camaro and firebird sites that this not only bolts up, but makes good power right out of the box. Then if you P&P the aluminum head and intake you would have even more power. I havnt been messing with Fieros very long, but this seems like it would give you the best of both worlds with basically just bolt ons. Am I missing something? Is there some reason this wouldnt work with the Fiero.? Thanks Van
Yes you could do this in a Fiero. However in an F-body/S-10 the mount locations are different and the starter is on the opposite side, which is their excuse for sticking with the RWD block. In a Fiero a 3x00 already has the starter on the proper side and the mount that bolts to the engine block only needs a very simple mod to work. If you swap the whole block you also get the benefit of a roller cam and stronger bottom end. Even with a longitudinal RWD vehicle, making mounts for a FWD block is pretty easy and the starter isn't as big of a deal as it's made out to be. Just people afraid of something that isn't 100% bolt on.
What about bolting the 3400 heads and intake on to the 2.8 fiero motor. It seems that if the intake and head not flowing well is the problem, that even the 2.8 would see significant increases and you wouldnt even have to pull the motor if you didnt want to. Although it would probably be easier. I have seen numbers that would suggest the aluminum heads flow as well as the best P&P iron heads. If that is true, you should be able to clean up the aluminum heads and intake, put in some larger injectors, re tune and get a pretty good power bump. Any thoughts? Van
What about bolting the 3400 heads and intake on to the 2.8 fiero motor. It seems that if the intake and head not flowing well is the problem, that even the 2.8 would see significant increases and you wouldnt even have to pull the motor if you didnt want to. Although it would probably be easier. I have seen numbers that would suggest the aluminum heads flow as well as the best P&P iron heads. If that is true, you should be able to clean up the aluminum heads and intake, put in some larger injectors, re tune and get a pretty good power bump. Any thoughts? Van
If you just bolted on the heads you would end up with around a 12-13:1 compression ratio. Most people doing a 'hybrid' swap out the pistons at the same time. At that point you might as well just pull the engine.
)
A bird in the hand, as they say... 
