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egr valve washer size-confused by maybenot
Started on: 11-03-2013 11:00 AM
Replies: 28 (2661 views)
Last post by: theogre on 11-12-2013 11:42 AM
maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
hi guys,
bought a new egr valave from rock auto, it is from Standard. the washer selection chart does NOT have my old number-17085897
i searched forums,and again bloozeberry is informative. however, my old valve has same part number as his, but alas my
"kit" does not have that number washer. i double checked rockauto site in case they or i made mistake when ordering.
no, the correct replacement egr is the one i received. i checked standards website in case they might be customer friendly and possibly posted an up to
date chart on website but no luck.
i put in an email to them but would like to put everything back together today. i drive car daily.
i also dont have a micrometer to check like BB's thread in how-to.
thanks
85 v6
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fierogtlt1
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Report this Post11-03-2013 11:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierogtlt1Send a Private Message to fierogtlt1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This is the page from Ogre's Cave.

Many replacement EGR valves are of the universal type and come with metering washers that are affixed to the valve prior to installation on the car. These washers MUST be staked in place. Do not depend on the gasket to hold them. If the washer comes loose it will screw up the metering allowing more exhaust gas flow than it's supposed to. The washer could even fall into the motor and cause major damage.

To stake them down place a punch or the corner of a chisel in the base of the EGR valve next to the washer seat. Hit the punch to dent the valve base and force metal toward the washer. Do this in at least 3 locations around the washer.

Record the number of the original valve to both the sticker included with the valve and a permanent location on the vehicle or in some other place you can find it again. The label often fades. You'll need the number if you ever have to replace it again.

Example: Installing an EGR on a V6.(PFF thread)

To select the correct washer...

You need the stamped # into the OE EGR shell... (Engine list has two #? Use either. GM uses an alternate # in production runs.)


Engine

22P Part #

Stamped/alt EGR #

84-88 L4 17110478 17084743
85-88 V6 17110813 17085897

Thanks to Bloozberry for alternate # for V6.
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theogre
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Report this Post11-03-2013 11:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
See my Cave, Emissions

Some instructions have either/both numbers.

If pack doesn't have correct washer...

If needed, Make a block that seal exhaust and tube from a can and reinstall old unit.
then deal w/ RA...

------------------
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)


The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 11-03-2013).]

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post11-03-2013 12:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you have a ruler marked in 32nds of an inch, use the washer with a hole 11/32" in diameter... that comes out to 0.344".
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sleevePAPA
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Report this Post11-03-2013 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sleevePAPASend a Private Message to sleevePAPAEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Pfft, no orifice washer, EGR DC set 100%= 1.5 MPG increase
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 03:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
thanks guys, i did read the cave and searched archives and how-to first and neither of those numbers show up on the conversion chart included with my valve.
on the bottom of the paper is copyright 1982 !!!!?????
i will try to dig out a ruler and go from there.
i suppose i can reuse the old one with the new gasket to get me running again.
the kit came with the right washers for the kit, just nowhere is those 2 numbers, gotta call rockauto tomorrow i guess.
thanks
johnny
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 03:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

maybenot

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can i run it with no washer?
never heard of that
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Bloozberry
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Report this Post11-03-2013 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sleevePAPA:
Pfft, no orifice washer, EGR DC set 100%= 1.5 MPG increase


It's not an issue of MPG, but rather one of emissions and emission test results. Pffft.

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Bloozberry
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Report this Post11-03-2013 03:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Bloozberry

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quote
Originally posted by maybenot:
can i run it with no washer?
never heard of that


The washer is there to restrict the amount of exhaust gasses that are allowed to mix with intake air when the EGR opens. If you run with no washer, then when the EGR valve opens, you'll flood the intake air stream with exhaust gasses and likely stall the engine, or at the very least get poor performance.
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
tried tofind one at 11/32 and after trying to figure out 32nds again...none of the washers are that size. the largest one is about 1/4 inch.
so i got a bad or old kit from rockauto.
can i just throw on the old valve with new gasket?
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Max The Chainsaw
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Report this Post11-03-2013 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Max The ChainsawClick Here to visit Max The Chainsaw's HomePageSend a Private Message to Max The ChainsawEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you need 11/32, get an 11/32 drill bit and drill out a smaller washer. Should work.

Max
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 05:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
brilliant! great idea.
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Bloozberry
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Report this Post11-03-2013 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
To answer your previous question about whether you can just use a new gasket and the old valve, it isn't that simple. The old valve doesn't have a properly sized hole in it either... it relies on the proper gasket which has an integral calibrated orifice in it to restrict the amount of exhaust gasses. The trouble is that it's hard to find the correct gasket. The aftermarket companies came up with a way to make the EGR kits universal by throwing in a one-size-fits-all gasket, along with the dozen or so orifice washers that you have to stake in place. So no matter which EGR valve you use, you still need either a properly sized gasket with an integral, calibrated hole, or the calibrated washer.
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-03-2013 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i understand, thats why the original gasket felt like metal...rusty thin broken ,metal,but still metal. makes sense.
especially cause i kept looking to see if i could find that ones washer to reuse it and could not find one.
on a different note, the new one came with a retaining ring to use on the washer instead of punching it in.
that should hold, right?
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Report this Post11-03-2013 08:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've never seen one with a retaining ring but I'm sure it will work just fine. Good luck!
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theogre
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Report this Post11-03-2013 10:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by maybenot:
can i just throw on the old valve with new gasket?

If old unit works then yes.

If dead etc then block exhaust and intake if needed to make sure both are sealed.

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NiotaFiero
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Report this Post11-08-2013 12:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiotaFieroSend a Private Message to NiotaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If I block both ends of the egr tube, is there anything else that needs to be removed or plugged or anything? And if the catalytic converter is removed, is the 02 sensor necessary?

[This message has been edited by NiotaFiero (edited 11-08-2013).]

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Report this Post11-08-2013 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by NiotaFiero:
If I block both ends of the egr tube, is there anything else that needs to be removed or plugged or anything?


From a mechanical perspective that's one way to stop the EGR from functioning, but keep in mind that the ECM uses a different fuel delivery schedule after it commands EGR. The ECM won't know you've disconnected the EGR. I'm pretty sure I've read here on PFF that a re-programmed chip will keep the ECM from leaning out the fuel too much at cruising speeds after it commands EGR for those that have removed it.

 
quote
Originally posted by NiotaFiero:
And if the catalytic converter is removed, is the 02 sensor necessary?


Absolutely necessary. The O2 sensor on the Fiero is upstream of the cat so it doesn't "know" whether the cat has been removed or not. The O2 sensor is arguably the most important sensor to keep your engine running properly.

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 11-08-2013).]

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NiotaFiero
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Report this Post11-08-2013 07:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiotaFieroSend a Private Message to NiotaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:


Absolutely necessary. The O2 sensor on the Fiero is upstream of the cat so it doesn't "know" whether the cat has been removed or not. The O2 sensor is arguably the most important sensor to keep your engine running properly.

. If the 02 sensor is bad, will it cause the car to run rich? My 2.8 has a always run with a rich gas smell even though it idles and runs smooth.

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Report this Post11-08-2013 09:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BloozberrySend a Private Message to BloozberryEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, because when the ECM detects no signal from the O2 sensor it can no longer work in closed-loop mode, meaning it doesn't calculate how much fuel to squirt in, it uses a look-up table instead which is purposefully rich since running lean is much more harmful to the engine. You should get a trouble code stored if your O2 sensor isn't working though. Your Service Engine Soon light would remain on unless the bulb is burnt or has been removed.
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maybenot
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Report this Post11-09-2013 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
quick update,
driven over 120 miles the last few days and it works as planned.
my kit didnt come with right sized washer, drilled correct size hole in supplied washer, reinstalled,check for gasket leaks and test drive.
thanks for the help folks, next up the heating dilemas.
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Report this Post11-10-2013 01:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just FYI I also used one of those universal valves, the engine ran poorly with the washer it specified so I used a smaller orifice. Maybe my EGR vacuum solenoid wasn't calibrated correctly?

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maybenot
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Report this Post11-10-2013 02:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maybenotSend a Private Message to maybenotEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
did the smaller washer fix it?iask because i dont think they need calibrated, maybe it is a vacuum leak or issue with the solenoid. the minisdcule vacuum nipple broke on mine and i had to add a tee to one of the lines going to it.
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post11-11-2013 11:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, the smaller washer fixed it. The washer it called out was providing too much EGR flow and creating some drivability problems.
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donuteater306
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Report this Post11-11-2013 02:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for donuteater306Send a Private Message to donuteater306Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This thread is one of the reasons why I prefer OEM parts. It's also a reminder to me of how lucky we are to have this forum. I wouldn't have known which size to drill out one of the washers (assuming my kit didn't come with the right one). Someone else's experience just saved the rest of us. So, thank you.

Unfortunately, It looks like from now on, we're gonna be stuck with only universal EGR valves available for our cars. I searched Amazon, AC Delco sites, RockAuto, Ebay, and our local Delco distributors with no luck.

My local Chevy dealer did a national parts search and found a NOS valve at an obsolete parts house in New York. They confirmed the part number on the valve and said that it's their last one, but that the box is damaged. Asked if I still wanted it? YES PLEASE!!! $40 + shipping. I am now returning the $65 AC Delco 214-1415 universal valve to Amazon, which, btw looks like a re-badged, and less expensive Standard valve.

How rude of GM to stop making parts for my 26 year old car!
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theogre
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Report this Post11-11-2013 06:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by donuteater306:
How rude of GM to stop making parts for my 26 year old car!

GM/ACdelco haven't made parts since GM gave all parts division to spinoff Delphi (Wiki).
Delphi quickly went bankrupt.
Delphi now make many parts in China and elsewhere.
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NiotaFiero
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Report this Post11-11-2013 07:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiotaFieroSend a Private Message to NiotaFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Yes, because when the ECM detects no signal from the O2 sensor it can no longer work in closed-loop mode, meaning it doesn't calculate how much fuel to squirt in, it uses a look-up table instead which is purposefully rich since running lean is much more harmful to the engine. You should get a trouble code stored if your O2 sensor isn't working though. Your Service Engine Soon light would remain on unless the bulb is burnt or has been removed.
. Okay, I guess my 02 is fine since I get no codes and the ses bulb is good.
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post11-12-2013 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

GM/ACdelco haven't made parts since GM gave all parts division to spinoff Delphi (Wiki).
Delphi quickly went bankrupt.
Delphi now make many parts in China and elsewhere.


I've never had an issue with the quality of Delphi parts. However, I fail to see the reason to buy AC Delco parts now, they are all farmed out to other companies and marked up.
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Report this Post11-12-2013 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by masospaghetti:
I've never had an issue with the quality of Delphi parts. However, I fail to see the reason to buy AC Delco parts now, they are all farmed out to other companies and marked up.

I don't buy AC either.
ACDelco, NAPA, and a few others are to car parts as Kmart/Sears Kenmore is to appliances. (Kmart bought Sears... Not other way like many think.)

 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:
If old unit works then yes.

Oop... I forgot that OE types had the "washer" built-in to the gasket. If you have one like that then No.
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