Ok, so I have posted in the past about some issues I have with shifting, and have read the other threads, but I can't quite resolve the issue I am having. So, I figured I would piece together a time line of my clutch / shifting issues and see if you folks can help me pin point the issue because I was not able to locate this exact problem in other threads.

Before I start though, I do require to do a proper bleed, but I don't think this is the complete answer to my cars problem, which is an 86 GT by the way.

1. Bought car in 2006-ish
2. Shortly after, car became hard to shift
3. Replaced slave (FS), bled, worked fine
4. A year later or so, the clutch starting slipping, replaced clutch, worked fine
5. Replaced gear shift with with a RD short shift, worked fine
6. Starting having issues with shifting again, bled, worked fine
7. in 2009, the shifter got stuck in 2nd gear, drove it home with 4-ways on, parked it
8. Deployed to Afghanistan.
9. Year and a half later, I came home and sent the car to a Fiero "expert" to rebuild the car (waste of money / rip off)
10. After numerous breakdowns due to the above person's "work", pushed car into backyard, tore it apart (including engine), and redid everything and more myself
11. Found leak in the master, replaced master and slave with RD's products, replaced clutch pedal with aftermarket from the FS, bled (no improvements made)
12. Due to lack of time, car sat for another year. Moved out of town, flat bedded car out, now starting to work on her again

Here's the issue I am finding now. With the engine on, it will not shift into any gears whatsoever. With the engine off, the car shifts through all gears up front, and at the back manually, all except into second gear.

If I shift into 1st, 3rd, 4th or reverse with the engine off, the car will move front or backwards once the engine has started.

Is she hung up in second gear? I did have the cables detached in the back as I was working on the engine, so is there a chance that these cables are off a hair and now not allowing 2nd to disengage? Plus, I would assume I still have a little air in the system as well (have a vacuum pump now, will try that this time around). I bench bled the MS and SS before installing them but, I could have missed some air bubbles. I have inspected the line throughout and the only leak I could find was from the master, which is no longer due to it's replacement. Cleaned out the pennies under the shift assembly as well so I see no physical obstructions whatsoever.

The trans-axle did develop a leak sometime ago and I never could find the source for it. I do not have the ability to drop the engine out so all work I have had to do has been from over the top, or underneath as she rests on cinder blocks.

I apologize for yet another clutch / shifting thread, but I can't get this figured out and it's frustrating me to no end...I miss driving this car!

Rich

Not sure about the actual clutch if there is problems with that or not, but I just had to bleed mine this week.
My car would go half easy in gears with the engine off but it would be a lot harder when it was going and reverse would just grind. So I bled mine and I filled up the master cylinder bottle about 6 times, I wanted to get a good flush. Also when it's bled, take the rod on the slave and push back in the slave clylinder to get any air between the bleeder and the slave cylinder piston. Measur what you are getting for movement on the slave, I think it should be about 1 inch of travel, I was getting a half inch, now I get 3/4 of an inch but she works fine so I am leaving it alone. Measure first!!

You might need to adjust the rod length on the master. I had to play with the rod length a bit on mine, after installing Rodney's master and slave cylinders to fix my leaks. If you have the rod too long, you could be overthrowing the slave, which can cause it to fail sooner and result in the clutch not disengaging properly, and if it's too short, you may not be getting enough movement at the slave, causing the clutch not to disengage.

As for the issue with 2nd gear, it could be that the gear is damaged, making it more difficult to disengage, once it is engaged. The only way to know for sure, is to take the trans apart. It might just be easier/cheaper to find another one though, and replace it.

quote Originally posted by dobey: As for the issue with 2nd gear, it could be that the gear is damaged, making it more difficult to disengage, once it is engaged. The only way to know for sure, is to take the trans apart. It might just be easier/cheaper to find another one though, and replace it.

That's what I am afraid of. I'll check the rod length on the Master and bleed the system again, trying all the DIY (for me anyway) alternatives now before the second option...replacement.

Let's take a couple of things step by step.

First, be sure you have no leaks at the pushrod end of your master and slave cylinders. You can determine that by popping the rubber boots off and feeling for fluid. Both can deceive you if just using a visual inspection. Both master and slave, especially the slave, are prone to develop pitting in the bore when sitting for long periods of time. That can cause fluid leaks.
Next, if you have good master and slaves, then:: Check that the master pushrod is oriented correctly. The curl on the pedal end of the pushrod should be oriented like so:


If you have an 85 or 86 4-speed or any of the 85-88 Isuzu 5-speeds, your (Edit to add "Slave cylinder") pushrod should be about 5 3/4 inches long. If you have one under 5 inches, you have the wrong one. That would be for the Getrag 5-speed.

Third, be sure your cables are adjusted correctly. Remove the shift knob and shift surround console and locate the alignment hole in the side of the shift handle. It's just beneath the front to back pivot point. Get a drill bit that fits into it, then move the lever into the 1st gear position and insert the drill bit to hold it in place.
Go to the rear and locate the cable with the ball stud. You can have a helper move the shift front to back to identify the cable.
Loosen the nut sufficiently to wiggle the transmission shift lever so that it settles into a position. Tighten the nut on the ball stud, remove the drill bit. Replace the shift surround console and shift knob.

Fourth, time to bleed the system. Be sure to have at least a full small can of Dot 3 or 4 fluid on hand.
Jack up the left front so that the wheel is several inches off the ground. Remove the master cylinder cap and it's rubber insert. Remove the rubber insert from the cap. If your fluid is black, absorb everything with a soft lint-free cloth or paper towel and refill the reservoir to the very top.
Replace just the cap, leaving the rubber insert out for the moment.
Fifth, go to the rear and open the slave cylinder bleeder. Capture the fluid in any manner you choose, but you must have access to the bleeder to close it at the proper time.
Let the fluid flow, occasionally giving the side of the slave a good slap with a heavy tool. This will dislodge any air bubbles lodged at the pushrod end of the slave.
Keep an eye on the fluid level in the master, topping it off when it nears the bottom.
Run at least 3 full reservoirs of fluid through the system, while occasionally giving the slave a couple of whacks with the heavy tool.
On the final fill, allow the fluid to drop down to the FULL mark then quickly close the bleeder on the slave.
Replace the rubber insert into the reservoir cap and install both onto the reservoir.

These steps will eliminate or identify any problems outside the transmission. If the problem isn't resolved, then it would be internal.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-30-2013).]

Ok, I'm going to take a stab at this again tonight.

As an FYI, I have Rodney's late model clutch master with small diameter banjo (the reason I have the late model is that's the style that was in my car originally, even though Rodeny's site says generally my car should have the early style), his slave cylinder and his Comp II shifter, which doesn't have the hole to line everything up.

So tonight, I'll take a look at the master cylinder and push rod and bleed using the tips you gave me fierofool, as I have not tried all of what you posted when bleeding, then re-bleed and see what happens after that. If it gets me nowhere, I'll throw on the stock shifter and try and line up the cables again. Will post my results.

There was a difference in the bore of the Isuzu and Getrag slaves. This would require a different bore on the masters as well. Maybe Rodney has modified his to compensate, but I'm of the understanding that using second generation masters with first generation slaves could cause problems. I can't say from experience, so maybe someone else can answer that one or give Rodney a call. He's very helpful.

To clarify my original post, and I'll correct it there, too, the pushrod length I refer to is for the Isuzu or Muncie slaves, not for the master cylinder.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 09-30-2013).]

Ah ok, thanks for the clarification. So my master should be good, unless there is a leak (I'll check as you mentioned I should)

Hopefully will have good news to post tomorrow.

Mine is the 4 speed by the way, I didn't answer that question yet.

So, I'm assuming it's an 85 or 86 V6. If you have a Rodney master with the fluid line attaching at the front of the master, it's the style used on the Getrag equipped cars.
You should have a slave of this style for the 4-speed that mounts to the 4-speed bracket.
http://rodneydickman.com/ca...h=61&products_id=237
It uses a long pushrod, is mounted on the drivers side of the mounting bracket and has studs on the mounting bracket. The two styles weren't offered together from the factory. It might be a good idea to check with Rodney to see if he's made his versions compatible.

It's an 86 V6. The original master in the car had the reservoir closer to the driver, so that's what I replaced it with. I'll get in contact with Rodney then, as the slave I have is this. http://rodneydickman.com/ca...h=61&products_id=237

I managed to make adjustments and the car now shifts through all gears with the engine off. Bled it, and went to start her up to try it with the engine running but...she doesn't start now! This car will be the death of me!

[This message has been edited by neph (edited 09-30-2013).]

By your description, you have the Getrag master with the correct slave for your transmission. Either your car was changed to a 4-speed or someone bent the fluid line to connect to the Getrag master.

Is it possible you may have bumped the neutral safety switch on the pedal when checking for fluid leaks underneath the dash? Does it turn over, or is there no power to the starter?

I'll check that switch tonight as I was fussing about under the dash last night (no leaks found). I guess it's possible though, as I am not the original owner of the car. I don't suppose the VIN would tell me anything about the transmission would it? I have to remove the master anyway and to a better bench bleed as it appears there is air still in there. The rest of the line and the slave seem ok. I used to have about 1/2" travel on the slave push rod, now I have full travel as of last night.

As for the not starting issue, I think it's mainly due to the year and a half old gas that was sitting in the tank. I'll be replacing the battery cables tonight as they are in dire need of replacing (may as well do it now), then get on the not starting problem. It's turning over, but it's puttering until the engine floods. It's baffling as I had it purring like a kitten two days ago. The engine has always run well, it was just a major shifting issue with this car. I thought it might be vacuum, but I replaced my lines with stainless steel a couple of years ago and everything is connected and in the right place. It simply didn't start the next day (last night). I put a fuel stabilizer in the day before then added a bit more fuel so perhaps that did something? (Sea Foam as that's all I had on hand)

I'm hesitant to take it in some place to have it looked at again as I wasted thousands on it when I had the funds and ended up doing everything over myself. I am yet to see a Fiero in my area so there isn't much in the way of Fiero expertise around here, that I know of anyway.

Now this is turning into a double topic thread :P I should have just started a build thread on my car years ago and kept everything under one topic.

[This message has been edited by neph (edited 10-01-2013).]

If you have full travel on the slave pushrod, you probably don't have any appreciable amount of air in the system. I've replaced 2 masters and never bench bled any of them. I used the gravity bleeding method I described and it got all the air out of the system.

For the cranking, if it cranks over, then the neutral safety switch wouldn't be an issue. That kills power to the starter unless the clutch is depressed. If it putters when cranking, try holding the accelerator all the way to the floor when cranking. This is flood-clear mode. Hold it there until the engine begins to rev up. Flooding could have fouled the plugs.

If we keep encountering issues and it starts to look like a build thread, Cliff will move it to the Construction Zone.

Ok. I'll see if I can get what nasty gas is left in there out tonight and put in some fresh stuff and see what that does.

My car is not really a "build" project, but rather a "restoration" with a few tweaks. Trying to keep it as original as possible. Have years of progress photos, non all to interesting, but we shall see.

Look at your RPO Code decal on the front fender wall. If you have M17, it was a 4-speed. If it has MM5, it was a 5-speed from the factory.

Thanks, I'll check that tonight

quote Originally posted by fierofool: Look at your RPO Code decal on the front fender wall. If you have M17, it was a 4-speed. If it has MM5, it was a 5-speed from the factory.

I thought the Getrag RPO was MG2?

Dobey, it could be. My RPO Code doesn't specify Getrag for the 5 speed. I did note that it lists the MG2 5 speeds as a Muncie, along with the 4-speeds as Muncie. Could be because the Getrag was built in the Muncie plant. I don't know what the 'provisions' notation is on the MM4 and MM5. So, the MG2 or MG3 may be the Getrags.

MD9 3-speed automatic transmission (THM125C)
MG2 Transmission, manual, 5-speed (Muncie) 3.61 ratio
MG3 Transmission, manual, 5-speed (Muncie)
MM4 Transmission, manual, 4-speed, provisions
MM5 Transmission, manual, 5-speed, provisions
MT2 5-speed manual transmission (Isuzu) 3.35 ratio
MV9 3 speed automatic transmission (THM200C)
MX1 3 speed automatic transmission
MY7 4-speed manual transmission (Isuzu)
MY8 4-speed manual transmission (Muncie) 3.32 ratio
M17 4-speed manual transmission (Muncie) 3.65 ratio
M19 4-speed manual transmission (Muncie) 4.10 ratio

Edit: I just checked my 86 SE and 87GT with Getrags and they have MM5 RPO Codes.

[This message has been edited by fierofool (edited 10-01-2013).]

I noticed last night that the Chilton manual lists the 5 speeds as Muncie as well and 4 speeds as Isuzo, no mention of a 4-speed Muncie... I'll see what my code is tonight.

Neph, to put your mind at ease I have an '86 GT. It has 76,000 kms now and I've just replaced the original clutch master and slave with Rodney's units.

Originally my car had the early style pedal (with the large pin), the late style master (fluid line at the end of the master) with the Muncie 4spd. The Muncie 4 spd came fromt he factory on V6 cars and the Isuzu was on the 4cyl cars.

I replaced the clutch pedal with a late style steel one that I found in the junk yard, it had the recall part number on it and has the small pin instead of the original large pin.

From Rodney I ordered his late style master with small banjo (to match my new pedal) and a 4 spd slave. I bench bled the master, I made triple sure it was blead fully, installed it then vacuum bled the slave the system is working very well. Granted I've only had it out for one night since then but the difference from before the parts swap was night and day. My car had sat for a long time before I started driving it and I believe the master and slave cylinders pitted and ate the seals because I was having to bleed about every 3 weeks with occasional driving to make sure I could shift properly.

I just wanted to let you know that you're not crazy if you have the 4 spd with the late master as that's what I had from the factory as well. It seems our cars are bastard child brothers, proabably came off the line close to each other right before the 5spd started going in. Good luck, I hope you can get it worked out.

[This message has been edited by Ry86GT (edited 10-01-2013).]

Maybe it's a Canadian thing then :P

But ok, so now I know my car is not some sort of pieced together jobby as I have the same layout as yours, and still currently do as I have Rodney's replacements in there now. Very reassuring. I've also replaced the clutch pedal with the Fiero Store's aftermarket, hence the small banjo as well.

Once she's running again I'll do a proper bleed and hopefully I'll have this licked. Wan't to drive her at least once before the snow starts!

[This message has been edited by neph (edited 10-01-2013).]

Neph, in the first sentence under the picture I posted of the slave, I incorrectly identified the length of the Isuzu 5-speed/Muncie 4-speed slave as being 5 3/4 inches long. I just measured the pushrod for another PFF thread and it's actually 5 1/2 inches long. That's the original factory length.

Ok, I'll double check that. I put her up on blocks last night and pulled the tires. Figured since I want to get under it to replace the fuel filter and battery cables, I would finish the poly's at the same time. Going to double check the clutch line for leaks as well. Won't get to this until the weekend though, so little time...ugh

Update

Car is up on blocks. Did some other work while she was raised but finally got back to my main issue. Managed to find the sweet spot for the cables so I can now shift through all gears...sort of.

With the car running, the right rear wheel ever so slightly starts to spin as if it were in a forward gear. I can't get it into reverse and first through fourth is a little tough, but doable. When switching through the gears the speedometer starts going up.

So, does this tell me the clutch is still engaged in a forward gear? Would trying to get the gremlins out of my clutch line / cylinders (for the millionth time) possibly solve this? Or is the issue in the clutch / transmission?

I was thinking of throwing the wheels back on and attempting to go for a spin first to see if that sorts the issue out but...rather wait for opinions to come in before trying that option.

Without resistance on the wheels, in your scenario with the rear wheels off the ground, it's possible for the wheels to rotate, just from the inertia of shafts turning inside the transmission. With your foot off the clutch pedal, if you can put on the brakes with the car running and in neutral and you don't stall the engine, then there is nothing engaged.

Fine adjustment of the shifter cable and a good system bleed may well eliminate any other problems.

Ok, so there is nothing engaged then as I can release the clutch, press the brake etc and it doesn't stall. That's a bit of a relief!

Will fiddle with the adjustments and do another bleed tonight (as long as the girlfriend doesn't make me paint the shed tonight!)