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Car starts/runs only after you spray in Starting Fluid, why? by sk8rfiero
Started on: 08-08-2013 01:53 AM
Replies: 18 (6774 views)
Last post by: 92wastheyear on 08-08-2013 10:36 PM
sk8rfiero
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Report this Post08-08-2013 01:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sk8rfieroSend a Private Message to sk8rfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I am putting my '85 4cylinder back on the road after sitting nearly 5yrs and can not get the car to start without the help of starter fluid 95% of the time. Once running the car is drivable (30min test drive completed)We have emptied all the "old gas", installed a new fuel pump and filter in the tank along with the filter up near the intake . The car has a full tank of gas & we have also added a fuel injector clean into the tank after experiencing the problem. The throttle body injector is spitting out gas when we turn over the engine but as mentioned it takes a spray of Start Fluid to get it to begin running. Has anyone experienced this before or have any ideas?????

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-08-2013 03:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Is the fuel pump priming? How is the fuel pressure?
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sk8rfiero
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Report this Post08-08-2013 09:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sk8rfieroSend a Private Message to sk8rfieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Honestly , I didn't pay attention to if it was priming because it was spraying fuel out of the injector. So its possible for it to be spraying but not enough to start the car but enough to have it run once started?
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Gall757
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Report this Post08-08-2013 09:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, it is possible. The 4 cylinder normal fuel pressure is 12 to 15 lbs.. but it can run at about 9 lbs.....not very well, but still run.
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theogre
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Report this Post08-08-2013 10:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:
Yes, it is possible. The 4 cylinder normal fuel pressure is 12 to 15 lbs.. but it can run at about 9 lbs.....not very well, but still run.

Spec is 9-13 PSI. All Years. Per SM, Alldata, etc

Sound like relay is iffy or iffy connection, iffy grounds, etc...

when key on, engine NOT running
Check bat volts at battery.

Back probe C502 to read volt. Should be close to battery volts when ECM trying to prime the pump..
Pin A blk wire ground
pin C Tan/Wht wire V+

C502 on firewall that disconnects fuel tank.

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crashyoung
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Report this Post08-08-2013 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashyoungClick Here to Email crashyoungSend a Private Message to crashyoungEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Does the pump run when you first turn the key to on?
I suspect the starting fluid allows the oil pressure to build and trigger the fuel pump...
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rod0708
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Report this Post08-08-2013 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rod0708Click Here to Email rod0708Send a Private Message to rod0708Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i think crash is on the right track.oil pressure does cut the fuel on.try a new oil pressure switch.had about the same problem with mine 2 yrs ago.mine would just have to turn over a lot longer before it would start.if im remembering correctly which may not be the case because i cant hardly remember what i ate for lunch yesterday.LOL but i think thats right
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IFLYR22
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Report this Post08-08-2013 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IFLYR22Click Here to Email IFLYR22Send a Private Message to IFLYR22Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by crashyoung:

Does the pump run when you first turn the key to on?
I suspect the starting fluid allows the oil pressure to build and trigger the fuel pump...


This was my first thought.

Have you check the wires/connections at the relay? Have you swapped the relay?
The dark green with white stripe wire is from the ECM, and it triggers the relay. Black with white stripe is the ground. Orange with white stripe is from the fuse panel. Tan with white stripe is to the pump.
With a friend or whomever you trust, have them turn the key to on, but not to start. Have your hand on the relay while they do that. You should feel the relay click. If no click, swap the relay with another one (the windshield washer pump relay is a good one to try, if you do not have one next to the fuel pump relay).

-Dave

[This message has been edited by IFLYR22 (edited 08-08-2013).]

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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by rod0708:

i think crash is on the right track.oil pressure does cut the fuel on.try a new oil pressure switch.had about the same problem with mine 2 yrs ago.mine would just have to turn over a lot longer before it would start.if im remembering correctly which may not be the case because i cant hardly remember what i ate for lunch yesterday.LOL but i think thats right


Would this also be true on the 2.8??


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Gall757
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Report this Post08-08-2013 02:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Gall757Send a Private Message to Gall757Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The 2.8 has a 'cold start injector' which adds another layer of complexity, but yes, the fuel pump can be activated either by the relay (turn the key), or by oil pressure.
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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 02:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Gall757:

The 2.8 has a 'cold start injector' which adds another layer of complexity, but yes, the fuel pump can be activated either by the relay (turn the key), or by oil pressure.


This is what caught my eye initially :

 
quote
rod0708: "......try a new oil pressure switch.had about the same problem with mine 2 yrs ago.mine would just have to turn over a lot longer before it would start"


My 87GT has been doing this for the last few days. My Oil Pressure Sender is likely bad (but has been for a while...and has been on my to-do list). Would replacing something like possible clear up the hard start issue....or should I be looking at the Cold Start Injector?
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Report this Post08-08-2013 03:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
No no no - The oil pressure switch acts as a back up to the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump relay runs when you first turn the key to on (for 2 seconds) so you have fuel pressure right away for starting. If the RELAY fails however after you crank the engine for a bit usually the oil pressure switch will close turning on the fuel pump and the engine starts right off.

The oil pressure switch will supply voltage to your fuel pump whenever there is oil pressure. To test, start the car and then turn it off right away. The fuel pump most likely will run for a bit after you turn the key off. That is because you still have oil pressure. So if your Fiero is doing this, then you know the oil pressure switch is working. Note also - once your oil is warm the fuel pump will turn off much much quicker. Don't be surprised if it runs 30 - 45 seconds after turning the engine off when cold, if your oiling system has good oil pressure.

If the oil pressure switch were to fail you would most likely not notice it unless you were trying to. It also would not cause a delayed start.

If your oil pressure is low, you might need more than cranking to build up enough oil pressure to turn on the switch and thus the pump. This is my first thought however the fact you are getting some spray from the injectors makes me wonder. Many times people find that when this happens is when the engine is hot. So you crank for a bit when cold at home and then the engine pops off because the oil pressure built up. Then you drive to the gas station and the car won't start because the oil is thinner and not turning on the switch. The car cools and when you come back it starts up like it did at home.

Again that can be caused by the relay not turning on the fuel pump. Turn the switch to on and the fuel pump should run for two seconds. Just bump the starter and it should come on again for two seconds and then turn off. If that is happening, then your relay IS working. If not you need to troubleshoot why the ECM via the Relay isn't turning on your fuel pump. In order of likelyhood #1 - Bad relay - #2 Bad relay socket - #3 Bad ECM (Yes they can and do fail in just the fuel pump relay control output)

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If you are having a delayed start problem, listen for the fuel pump. If the fuel pump isn't running look at the relay. If the fuel pump IS running you could then look at the cold start injector. The cold start injector was only used on the V6s. Many people remove the cold start injector however and experience little to no change in starting.

Also the cold start injector would only come into play for the first start. If you have problems after you have driven within the past 1/2 hour and you have problems it can't be caused by the cold start injector not injecting fuel.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 08-08-2013).]

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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Also the cold start injector would only come into play for the first start. If you have problems after you have driven within the past 1/2 hour and you have problems it can't be caused by the cold start injector not injecting fuel.



So the cold start inject is strictly for "cold" starts. I have an errand to run I will note what happens and post in here.

PS It is pretty hot outside now....does that make a difference?
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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 07:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by 92wastheyear:


So the cold start inject is strictly for "cold" starts. I have an errand to run I will note what happens and post in here.

PS It is pretty hot outside now....does that make a difference?


Ok. Back from the store with two gallons of milk, a gallon of lemonade, a pack Kraft Singles for my worthless children. When I went out to the car to start the trip...I turn the key on (but didn't try to start it). I could hear the pump prime. I bumped the starter once again...and it primed again. When tried to start the car....it cranked 3-4 times...failed start. I tried again and it started with a big puff of of blue-ish smoke (that was a first). The smoke quickly dissipated and the car (as usual) drove beautifully all the way to Safeway (no smoke). By the time I got there the car was fully warmed up and sitting at about 190-200*. I went in and shopped for about 15-20 mins. When I started it up to come home, it primed and started quickly (also no smoke).

If I comprehended what Phonedawg was saying in his very good comment, it sounds like I should be looking at the Cold Injector and associated paraphernalia ....rather than the oil pressure switch.


PS ...What was the smoke?
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KY87fierogt
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Report this Post08-08-2013 09:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KY87fierogtClick Here to Email KY87fierogtSend a Private Message to KY87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Bluish smoke=oil?? I believe
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KY87fierogt
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Report this Post08-08-2013 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KY87fierogtClick Here to Email KY87fierogtSend a Private Message to KY87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Worn rings? Have you tried compression test...cold?
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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by KY87fierogt:

Worn rings? Have you tried compression test...cold?


Wouldn't that cause it to smoke all the time?This is the first smoke I have ever seen from this car, plus it seemed to be associated with the hard start, but not the fact that the engine was cold. because as soon as the car started, the smoke came out, dissipated and that was that. It was running while cold and not smoking at all
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crashyoung
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Report this Post08-08-2013 10:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crashyoungClick Here to Email crashyoungSend a Private Message to crashyoungEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cold start injector when cold, did you check for voltage and pulses?
Blue smoke from oil leaking past the valve stems?
Mine does the same at times, the valve seals are going bad.
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92wastheyear
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Report this Post08-08-2013 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 92wastheyearClick Here to Email 92wastheyearSend a Private Message to 92wastheyearEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by crashyoung:


Blue smoke from oil leaking past the valve stems?
.


Any idea why it would pick that moment to show up?
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