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Yet another 3800 Series 2 Swap underway by DPoppelll
Started on: 08-07-2013 11:08 PM
Replies: 24 (981 views)
Last post by: DPoppelll on 08-29-2013 08:08 PM
DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-07-2013 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I'm starting a L67 Swap for my '84 Fiero. I picked the engine (and trans) from a '99 Riviera. Living in CA, it's going to take as whole lot of work to get this swap legal and smog ready. Lucky for me I'm a student worker at one of the Smog Referee stations, so I've got a great resource for information on how to make the swap pass.

Now for the questions:

My first problem is that I can't seem to get any good information on F23 vs F40 transmission swaps. I'm leaning towards the F40 only for the fact that it's pretty cheap on eBay. I wouldn't be opposed to buying an F23 from a salvage yard (I've become a frequent flyer at Pick Ur Part's 50% off days), but I'm not sure what all I'll need to make the trans compatible with the Fiero and really what car I could pick one from.

Secondly, are there any sites that provide performance engine parts that are C.A.R.B. compliant? I've been on ZZP performance's site, but I can't find any information on the site that refers to the CA legality of these parts.

Just for fun I'll post some of the pictures of what I've got.

First... The customary engine bay shot. They made me smile for it.
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Then, of course, I had to be ridiculous.
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

out with the old. The engine was in decent shape, but the electrical was terrible and I figured why not swap it all?


the new engine... my advice; don't bring yours home in a closed vehicle like a Blazer. It came with the SC but I removed it to reduce the weight for when we hand lifted (legs almost gave out) the engine out of the car.


New engine starting to be disassembled. Looks pretty clean inside, but we'll see when the heads come off.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Supercharger disassembled. The coupler is shot but those are cheap.




and me now, more hair, more dirt, more 3800 engine.


It's a slow build, since I'm still in school, but I'm in school for an Automotive degree so I have great access to shop tools.

More posts to follow. hope you enjoy the ride as much as I will.
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-08-2013 03:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have been told to pass CA smog you have to retain the stock (3800) transmission (All 3800 SCs were auto) and you also must maintain all the smog and evap from the 3800 car. That means the 3800 fuel pump, fuel sender to the PCM, 3800 purge and 3800 vent solenoids, and the pre cat O2 sensor and the post cat O2 sensor.

What do the senior smog people say about that?

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-08-2013 12:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

I have been told to pass CA smog you have to retain the stock (3800) transmission (All 3800 SCs were auto) and you also must maintain all the smog and evap from the 3800 car. That means the 3800 fuel pump, fuel sender to the PCM, 3800 purge and 3800 vent solenoids, and the pre cat O2 sensor and the post cat O2 sensor.

What do the senior smog people say about that?


To pass smog the vehicle is supposed to have the stock exhaust configuration OR a C.A.R.B. approved exhaust before the cat. West Coast Fiero sells a set of headers that, when used in conjunction with their cold air intake, cat back exhaust system, and catalytic converter, is C.A.R.B. approved. As far as the fuel pump is concerned theres no way to inspect it without doing some disassembly, which is a no-no at a referee station. But basic rule of thumb is that all smog components from the engine are to be included in the swap. For the engine I have that includes pcv, evap, cat, egr, spark control, o2s, computer emissions control, MIL light, and even a fillpipe restrictor. The boss sys that the transmission isn't a problem as long as it doesnt set a code or a not ready monitor. Fuel pump isn't a major concern if the engine uses a return fuel system. I'll probably try to get it approved with the stock auto trans just to keep the computer stuff in line.

If i forgot anything i'll catch it after work, busy day today.
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-08-2013 12:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A correctly programmed PCM for the SC S2 MT swap won't set a code.

That's the way they are being done.

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-08-2013 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

A correctly programmed PCM for the SC S2 MT swap won't set a code.

That's the way they are being done.


So now the all important question: F23 or F40?

Did a bit of research and it has been said the the F23 is cheaper in terms of the complete swap, but it aeems that the F40 is more readiy available since pontiac went under. Any ideas on where to look for the F23?
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-08-2013 03:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Keep in mind with either the F23 or F40 you will be using a 24,000 PPM VSS and thus you will need to run the speedo signal through the PCM. Not a big deal but just something to remember if you make your own harness.

If I make it then I include it. Also if you make your own I do sell the speedo buffer that allows you to do that at http://reddevilriver.com
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Report this Post08-08-2013 03:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sco77Click Here to Email sco77Send a Private Message to sco77Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Will definitely be following this build.

------------------
86 Fiero GT 4spd - (pending L67 swap: VS cam, GenV) Build Progress eta: 8/13
98 GTP - Some mods

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-08-2013 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Keep in mind with either the F23 or F40 you will be using a 24,000 PPM VSS and thus you will need to run the speedo signal through the PCM. Not a big deal but just something to remember if you make your own harness.

If I make it then I include it. Also if you make your own I do sell the speedo buffer that allows you to do that at http://reddevilriver.com


Where the interior is concered, I'm going to be swapping in the firebird dash. I already bought the instrument cluster and will be using that. Does your harness work with that speedo? I was looking at another build that used your harbess and I really liked it. When that time and money comes you'll be getting a call if we can make it work.


 
quote
Originally posted by sco77:

Will definitely be following this build.



Glad to hear it! I've been following the forum since I got my Fiero in 2007 but only signed up at the end of 2011. It is a great community to be a part of. I have big plans for this build!
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post08-08-2013 05:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I build the harness to be compatible with the stock Fiero wiring. So if the Firebird dash swap when finished is also compatible with the stock wiring then yes it should be. I would have to look into it to give you a definitive answer. I wouldn't think there would be any problems however.
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Report this Post08-08-2013 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
F23 uses 24000 PPM the F40 uses 60000 PPM but both are easily changed within the program.
The F23 will work with stock Fiero manual axles and just make some mounts and shifter brackets to go with it.
The F40 works well with a SAAB 9-5 Jack shaft and 06 cobalt SS axles from a SC car then make your own mounts and shifter brackets. The 84 4 speed shifter is best to use for the 6 speed and two Fiero getrag select cables also work quite well, if you buy them new from Rodney tell him they are for the F40 and he will put the right ends on them.
Have done a few of each so far so if you have any questions feel free to email me dansswaps@live.com

------------------


DARN Cars now open with
Over 30 years wiring experience between cars and trade as an avionics technician in both Canadian Air Force and civilian aviation.
Over 25 years experience building and modifying cars.
Over 10 years of full Fiero engine swaps and harnesses building and still going.

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-09-2013 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by FIEROFLYER:

F23 uses 24000 PPM the F40 uses 60000 PPM but both are easily changed within the program.
The F23 will work with stock Fiero manual axles and just make some mounts and shifter brackets to go with it.
The F40 works well with a SAAB 9-5 Jack shaft and 06 cobalt SS axles from a SC car then make your own mounts and shifter brackets. The 84 4 speed shifter is best to use for the 6 speed and two Fiero getrag select cables also work quite well, if you buy them new from Rodney tell him they are for the F40 and he will put the right ends on them.
Have done a few of each so far so if you have any questions feel free to email me dansswaps@live.com



Thanks! I'll probably wind up going F40 just because I like the idea of having a 6 speed fiero. Childish? Perhaps, but I'll gladly put the extra work in for childish dream
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Report this Post08-09-2013 01:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FIEROFLYERSend a Private Message to FIEROFLYEREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wiring wise the only difference is the speed sensor and reverse light switch from a normal Fiero manual swap plus the need for the speedo buffer to make the Fiero speedo work. Engine does need to be mounted approx one inch closer to the pass side to keep axles in proper place when using the cobalt axles but not far enough to be a problem. I can send you photos of the kits I make if it will help you make your own. Dan
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Report this Post08-09-2013 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
DONT TAKE THE HEADS OFF!!

 
quote

My first problem is that I can't seem to get any good information on F23 vs F40 transmission swaps. I'm leaning towards the F40 only for the fact that it's pretty cheap on eBay. I wouldn't be opposed to buying an F23 from a salvage yard (I've become a frequent flyer at Pick Ur Part's 50% off days), but I'm not sure what all I'll need to make the trans compatible with the Fiero and really what car I could pick one from.


Are MT swaps smog legal?

 
quote

Secondly, are there any sites that provide performance engine parts that are C.A.R.B. compliant?


There is a cheater pulley that looks stock at one of the performance places on the internet.. 3.5 pulley i believe.

[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 08-09-2013).]

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-09-2013 11:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by darkhorizon:

DONT TAKE THE HEADS OFF!!..... Are MT swaps smog legal?



Why not take the heads off? Is there an issue with them warping?

The referee I talked to said that the transmission isn't a factor in legalizing an engine swap. As long as the vehicle can be tested in the dyne than there should be no problem with the swap I'm envisioning. But there Is also the possibility that by the time my swap is done CA will no longer be using the BAR 97 dyne, but they might instead switch to a plug-in-only test of OBD2 vehicles.Here's to hoping...
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Report this Post08-10-2013 07:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Slow6Click Here to Email Slow6Send a Private Message to Slow6Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DPoppelll:


Why not take the heads off? Is there an issue with them warping?

The referee I talked to said that the transmission isn't a factor in legalizing an engine swap. As long as the vehicle can be tested in the dyne than there should be no problem with the swap I'm envisioning. But there Is also the possibility that by the time my swap is done CA will no longer be using the BAR 97 dyne, but they might instead switch to a plug-in-only test of OBD2 vehicles.Here's to hoping...


There's just absolutely no reason to pull the heads on a 3800 unless you are swapping heads or NEED to replace head gaskets. Otherwise I wouldn't even bother unless you are dying to do extra work. Well that's my opinion anyway.
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Report this Post08-12-2013 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I agree about the heads. Did you hear the engine run before you got it ? Any" reason to think" either the valves or the gaskets are bad ? if not, Don't fix what isn't broken, it will only Cost you more .
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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-12-2013 03:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

I agree about the heads. Did you hear the engine run before you got it ? Any" reason to think" either the valves or the gaskets are bad ? if not, Don't fix what isn't broken, it will only Cost you more .


The engine was a junk yard pull. It's only for that reason I wanted to verfy the internals, since the only apparent problem was a bad SC gasket. We have a start cart at school so when I bring it in that'll be the first thing I do.
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Report this Post08-13-2013 03:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its $150+ to reinstall heads, and its also really hard to get the factory "flat to flat" mating back again, as the heads and the block in a normal high mile motor will warp together.

Removing heads for no reason is an expensive downgrade in every case.
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Report this Post08-14-2013 10:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay.......

So I found out today that, unless I can make the car qualify as a special construction vehicle, there will be no way to make the manual trans work with a supercharger on the motor. So I can have the SC on an Auto, or a naturally aspirated manual.

So now my dilemma; keep the auto trans and drive a car I'm not 100% happy with or say "screw it" and do the manual trans anyway and keep it registered in Oregon with family members.

OR

I can switch the SC for N/A manifold and deal with that.
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hyphynator1984
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Report this Post08-15-2013 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hyphynator1984Click Here to Email hyphynator1984Send a Private Message to hyphynator1984Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
what school are you going to?
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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-16-2013 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by hyphynator1984:

what school are you going to?


I'm at Pierce College.


Sooooo I came to the decision that I'll be keeping the stock auto trans. I'm not super happy about it, but it's going to be the best way to make the engine swap legal. I actually had a guy come in too get his '86 Lambo replica registered with the 3800 SC engine in it and he said he had a good enough time in the car without a manual trans, so it made me feel better about leaving the trans stock. With that in mind, here is the plan as it stands now:

□ 3800 SC swap*
......□ “Rebuild” supercharger
............. Order PU coupler replacement
......□ WCF Headers, Exhaust and Cold Air Intake
......□ WCF Engine mounts
......□ Wiring harness and PCM
□ Stock auto trans
□ ’88 cradle swap
......□ Needed before any mounting can be done
□ Sunroof conversion
......□ Aesthetic work needs to be done
□ Firebird Dash Swap
......□ Dashboard
......□ Instrument Cluster
......□ AC controls
......□ Aftermarket radio
............. Upgraded speakers and possible subwoofer
......□ Steering wheel?
□ GT Fastback Swap
......□ Fastback panel
......□ GT bumper
......□ GT Tail lights
......□ Trunk release
□ Upgrade Brakes and Suspension
......□ Research into best upgrades
□ Racing seats
......□ 5-point or 3-point harnesses
......□ Anchoring bar
□ Power steering conversion
......□ WCF kit

So as you can see WCF is going to get a good deal of business from me over the course of this swap. I've made the list in order of what needs to be done first.
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Report this Post08-17-2013 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoClick Here to Email Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You "DO mean" you will keep the "stock trans" that came with The ENGINE, Not the car, Correct ?
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Report this Post08-18-2013 02:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Click Here to Email jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wish you were closer , I want a solid non sun roof top,

------------------


87 GT
series 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft)
(series II swap in progress)
85GT Northstar/ 4t80e
86GT 3800 n/a
My Build

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DPoppelll
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Report this Post08-18-2013 03:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by jb1:

Wish you were closer , I want a solid non sun roof top,



Oh, the top is in several pieces. It seems that whoever insalled that top went a bit nuts with the adhesive and I was forced to break it to get my hot knife to it.
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Report this Post08-29-2013 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DPoppelllClick Here to Email DPoppelllSend a Private Message to DPoppelllEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Quick update to keep me off the backside of this topic.

Got a second job to help fund the parts and materials I'll need to get this swap done. Waiting on financial aid too come in so I know how much of my own money I'll have to spend on school. Other than than I've got the time inside of class and a little (not much at all really) outside of class. As for now I'm working on getting an '88 cradle to use as my mounting platform and then I just need to get the mounts and perhaps some suspension for the meantime.

more posts to follow, don't think I've given up on this just yet haha!
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