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Gen 1 to Gen 2 FAIL by NetCam
Started on: 08-03-2013 03:11 PM
Replies: 12 (475 views)
Last post by: NetCam on 08-08-2013 10:59 PM
NetCam
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Report this Post08-03-2013 03:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Went to upgrade my '85 GT from Gen 1 to Gen 2 headlights today. Well everything was going pretty well, with the exception of you really really should take the hood off to do the harness. Then I got the first motor in and decided I'd better give it a go before I started putting everything back together. Not a happy camper!



I figured the only thing that could cause that would be a stripped gear, but I didn't think the Gen 2's were as prone to that, so I started taking the motor apart. Here's what I found inside:

From this view, it didn't look like there were any teeth on the gear at all



So I popped the gear out, and there were no bump stops left at all, just crumbs


Not sure if the gear is supposed to look like this or not



I don't have any experience at all with Gen 2 motors, so is the gear supposed to have teeth all the way from one side to the other, or is there supposed to be a ridge on the side of the gear facing out? Is there a YouTube video of rebuilding a Gen 2 motor? The one that Buddycraigg did for the Gen 1 was awesome, I couldn't have rebuilt them without it.

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-04-2013).]

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pontiacfierokid1985
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Report this Post08-03-2013 03:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiacfierokid1985Click Here to visit pontiacfierokid1985's HomePageClick Here to Email pontiacfierokid1985Send a Private Message to pontiacfierokid1985Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
you can use the ford window regulator gear plugs from autozone they are located in the help section and they are way cheaper and u wont have for someone to ship them out to you
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fieroguru
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Report this Post08-03-2013 09:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Its hard to see from the pictures, but the gear looks normal to me.

Usually the 3 plastic rods disintegrate before the gear is damaged.
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Raydar
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Report this Post08-04-2013 10:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The only problem I have ever had with an 88 headlight motor, other than the 3 "pegs" disintegrating, was a cracked gear.
The cracked gear still worked, sort of, but would bind on the worm gear that the motor drives, causing the mechanism to stall - with the hood closed.

Your gear looks normal to me, too.
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Tony Kania
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Report this Post08-04-2013 10:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Tony KaniaSend a Private Message to Tony KaniaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Time to order from Rodney.
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NetCam
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Report this Post08-04-2013 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Well it does look like Rodney will be getting yet another order from me, but it's starting to look like about $10 instead of $80 (Not that I would ever complain about getting stuff from Rodney, it's always top notch).

After closer examination it does appear the gear is intact, and all I need is the bump stops. Would have been pretty frustrating after spending $80 on the rebuild kits for the Gen 1 motors only to have the 'Sanderson Effect' randomly kill my battery. The strangest thing was it didn't do it all the time, just once every few weeks. As if it was gasping its last breath, it was twitching as I was pulling the harness, strangely enough even after I pulled the power off the motor (??).

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-04-2013).]

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post08-04-2013 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Has anyone fixed that twitching? I've got one of those, & I've had it apart 4 times with different ideas to no avail.
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NetCam
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Report this Post08-04-2013 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
From what I've heard, the most common reason for the twitch is the rubber gasket at the top of the motor being between the housing and the knob rather than the notch at the top of the casing it's supposed to be in.
The second is the bump stops are too soft and aren't providing enough resistance when the motor hits the end of the travel to fully engage the limit switch. I've seen this fixed by filling the gear cavity with something like JB Weld and dispose of the rubber stops altogether, but I wonder what the long term effect on the motors would be. The bump stops were in there (I believe) to cushion the impact on the motors when they hit the end of their travel. Also saw one person replace the bump stops with nuts of the same approximate diameter.

Other possible causes are the brushes falling off the limit switches, or the arms being bent so they're too far apart and won't engage. I also saw one post where the apparent cause was the headlight relay, but I've only seen that once. I really hope that wasn't the cause of mine, because I finally gave up and went with the Gen 2 conversion, which I'm right in the middle of right now.

Hope this helps.
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pontiacfierokid1985
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Report this Post08-05-2013 08:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for pontiacfierokid1985Click Here to visit pontiacfierokid1985's HomePageClick Here to Email pontiacfierokid1985Send a Private Message to pontiacfierokid1985Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You dont have to order them from rodney dickman like i said u could get the torque bushings right from autozone in the help section yes these are for a ford but they are the exact same thing and u dont have to pay for shipping and have to wait for them the come in the mail heres the link http://m.autozone.com/autoz...g/_/N-25bw?id=426078

I have used these for all the gen 2 headlight motors ive rebuilt on my 88 firebird, and also used these when i did the gen 2 harness swap on my current 85 gt fiero and they work just as good as the ones from rodney

[This message has been edited by pontiacfierokid1985 (edited 08-05-2013).]

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David Hambleton
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Report this Post08-05-2013 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David HambletonClick Here to Email David HambletonSend a Private Message to David HambletonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Netcam; the top seal is in place & the bumpers have been removed to ensure a solid 'hit'.

I've read about filling the gear with stuff & wonder how it comes apart the next time the gear strips. That seems to be similar to running without the bumpers. The spring mechanism seems to provide more 'cushion' for motor deceleration than the bumpers... I've run gears for years without the bumpers.

I can't see anything wrong with the mechanism or electrical stuff but I must be missing something. The twitching is just on the passenger side so the relay doesn't seem suspect...
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NetCam
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Report this Post08-05-2013 10:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by pontiacfierokid1985:

You dont have to order them from rodney dickman like i said u could get the torque bushings right from autozone in the help section yes these are for a ford but they are the exact same thing and u dont have to pay for shipping and have to wait for them the come in the mail heres the link http://m.autozone.com/autoz...g/_/N-25bw?id=426078

I have used these for all the gen 2 headlight motors ive rebuilt on my 88 firebird, and also used these when i did the gen 2 harness swap on my current 85 gt fiero and they work just as good as the ones from rodney



Unfortunately no Autozone here in Canada. I did find a place that can order them in though. I found them on Amazon and saw that the gears that go with them look exactly like the motor gears. I guess they must get them from a common supplier. I should have them by tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-05-2013).]

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NetCam
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Report this Post08-05-2013 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by David Hambleton:

Thanks Netcam; the top seal is in place & the bumpers have been removed to ensure a solid 'hit'.

I've read about filling the gear with stuff & wonder how it comes apart the next time the gear strips. That seems to be similar to running without the bumpers. The spring mechanism seems to provide more 'cushion' for motor deceleration than the bumpers... I've run gears for years without the bumpers.


If you use the aluminium gear, you shouldn't ever have to worry about stripping again

 
quote


I can't see anything wrong with the mechanism or electrical stuff but I must be missing something. The twitching is just on the passenger side so the relay doesn't seem suspect...


My twitching is on the passenger side only as well. I think that because there is power to that circuit at all times, it is possible that the individual relay on the headlight could be a problem as opposed to the isolation relay. It wouldn't hurt to swap the relays around and see if the problem switches sides.

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-05-2013).]

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NetCam
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Report this Post08-08-2013 10:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NetCamClick Here to visit NetCam's HomePageSend a Private Message to NetCamEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Using the tip on the plugs from pontiacfierokid1985 and reading an old post from 2008 (//www.fiero.nl/forum/A...090907-2-090444.html) I was able to complete my Gen 2 swap! Thanks everybody

[This message has been edited by NetCam (edited 08-08-2013).]

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