I am at a point finally where I have a pretty fun modified and brand new 2.8 that is super reliable and life is good. So now it's time to mess stuff up.
I am at a crossroads where I can either -
Do a turbo setup with the 2.8 and get a bit over 200 hp
or go a longer more time consuming route and buy a 3800SC to prepare to go in the car, get the harness done and probably have it all installed on a spare cradle.
Or do both.
If I want to get 350 hp ish out of a 3800 with a SC, what do I need and what am I looking at for costs?
I will probably turbo the 2.8 and then sell that setup eventually or keep it if I love it, but I think I am going to go the 3800 route in the future.
I can fab manifolds and exhaust so that is no issue.
I ask because I want to race the car eventually, and I plan on modifying the suspension a ton, custom cradle and front cross member, custom arms and knuckles and everything. This will put me in some crazy class so I need an engine to compete even if it is just autocross. So while I enjoy my turbo 2.8 for a few years I can build my custom suspension and get the engine swap prepared.
I know you can turbo the 3800 and get crazy power, but I have never looked into making power when it is kept supercharged so I was just wondering what it takes, as supercharging may be better for road racing than turbocharging.
Here is my build so far, I have done other upgrades as well, I just have to update my thread.
It depends a lot on what you want to spend to achieve the HP. An essentially stock 3800 SC Series III has about 260 HP. If you add a VS cam, Northstar TV, 3.4 pulley, and an intercooler, it will dyno somewhere around 300 HP and 300 ft lbs of torque at the wheels using a Getrag 282 transmission. My specific engine is set up for long term reliability and is not tuned to the ragged edge and I can still get 300 HP out of it. I have a dyno curve somewhere around the house if you want exact numbers. If you are willing to go with a 2.8 inch pulley, a more agressive cam, and a power oriented tune, I believe that you can reach your desired numbers.
Has been discussed a million times on here, but anyway:
Cam and springs, underdrive pulleys, port/polish heads and blower, intercooler, good exhaust, and a proper tune.
Yea I was on the 3800 gtp forums doing some research, and I was on zzp's site looking at prices, but I was wondering what fiero guys used. I also saw that the injectors would have to be changed, and you can run a 3 inch pulley safely with an intercooler (depending on which one) but I do not know how much the intercoolers cost except what I saw on zzp which ranged form like 1200 to 300 dollars, but I don't know which ones are good and which ones are not. If an intercooler is going to cost over 1000 dollars and it is necessary then that will affect my decision.
And I have never seen on the forum somebody port and polish the heads, just the SC...
And do the heads have to be machined to install new springs? Or is the factory install height correct for the aftermarket springs as well, because it is not correct with a 2.8.
There are also many stages of cam for the 3800, I know JustinBart is running a pretty big cam in his 3800. I have read cam selection threads, they never come to decisive answers about what is too big.
And overall, is it worth it? Is it difficult to get a smooth powerband out of a turbo 3800? Because if not, then staying supercharged would not be worth it. I really would like a smooth powerband.
Do a turbo setup with the 2.8 and get a bit over 200 hp
Don't waste your time. Turboing the 2.8 adds weight, complexity and heat while reducing reliability. You can have 200-250 HP via a 3500 non-VVT, 3500 VVT or 3900. You'll have less fab, less heat, less weight, equivalent or better power and higher reliability.
Don't waste your time. Turboing the 2.8 adds weight, complexity and heat while reducing reliability. You can have 200-250 HP via a 3500 non-VVT, 3500 VVT or 3900. You'll have less fab, less heat, less weight, equivalent or better power and higher reliability.
Honestly I am considering not turboing it, I have just really wanted to for a long time. But I would sink my funds into a 3800 instead, I enjoy the simplicity of it.
Originally posted by zkhennings: And overall, is it worth it? Is it difficult to get a smooth powerband out of a turbo 3800? Because if not, then staying supercharged would not be worth it. I really would like a smooth powerband.
Not really. It will be easier, cheaper, and more reliable, to get that power out of a 3800 with a turbo. Just get an L67, pull the rotors out of the blower, seal it up, port and polish, throw on a small turbo pushing somewhere around 7 PSI, and get the tune right, and you should be at 350 HP.
The power range on a stock 3800 is really good already. A small turbo shouldn't affect it much. You should end up with relatively the same curve, but with more power.
Don't waste your time. Turboing the 2.8 adds weight, complexity and heat while reducing reliability. You can have 200-250 HP via a 3500 non-VVT, 3500 VVT or 3900. You'll have less fab, less heat, less weight, equivalent or better power and higher reliability.
Well, not necessarily.
I'm going on 22 years with a 3.2 turbo blown to 13 psi that has been completely reliable. It depends on how you do it. 275-300 BHP are fairly easy to get. Like anything, you have to be willing to spend some money. It may even be more money than getting the same power from the 3.8, I can't comment on that.
I am at a point finally where I have a pretty fun modified and brand new 2.8 that is super reliable and life is good. So now it's time to mess stuff up.
Been there, done that !
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
Do a turbo setup with the 2.8 and get a bit over 200 hp = BAD IDEA
or go a longer more time consuming route and buy a 3800SC to prepare to go in the car, get the harness done and probably have it all installed on a spare cradle. = GOOD IDEA
Or do both. HUH ?!
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
If I want to get 350 hp ish out of a 3800 with a SC, what do I need and what am I looking at for costs?
i'm curious where you got the 350 hp number from. Just my experience, but anything 250 to 300 is Plenty for a fiero.
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Has been discussed a million times on here,
yep, but posts like this got me (-)s Really stir up the pot - tell people to use search
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 07-20-2013).]
I might be able to help provide some input as I have owned GTP's for the past 7years and currently my 97 GTP is turbocharged. Without the use of nitrous with a S/C getting over the 300whp mark typically requires some sort of cam. You have plenty of options available, but really boils down to how far you want to go with the engine. Ron Vogel a few years back complied a list of cams(clubgp) and their effects on the back half in the 1/4 mile. Repeatedly, the S1X out performed the XP cam, giving it the edge for those that opted to stay with stock heads(no port work). However, with port work the XP out shined the S1X every time.
Guys are having to run sub 3.0 pulleys to obtain anywhere near 350whp(without the help of nitrous). Many of which are running a fullsize intercooler so be sure and add that to your list of needs. I would recommend going 42lb injectors as that should suffice at those power levels if you are not planning on going E85.
The most I was able to muster before going turbo on my 98 GTP was 271hp/325tq on a 1.9 rocker/SSIC/3.25 pulley set up.
On my 97 turbo GTP my mods were: 1.9 rockers PT-61 2.5" exhaust turbo back plog intercooler L36 top swap HVIII 42lb injectors ZZP PCM On 12 PSI, the car put down 346whp/575tq which is low according to many Turbo GP guys.
Honestly, if you are on a budget and not looking for huge power I would suggest staying S/C, doing a pulley drop, S1X cam, and throwing some nitrous at it. That will honestly be your quickest and cheapest way to obtaining 350whp. However, keep in mind the things I did were in a car much heavier than a Fiero, so I can only imagine what it feels like to have 300whp in a smaller lighter car.
Cheers Jonathan
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[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-20-2013).]
my 99 GTP i had close to that HP by running E85 42.5lb injs custom tune 3" down pipe w/hi flo converter cold therm stat and 3.25 pulley on the SC Amsoil 0w-30 and i had only 1-2 deg. of knock... the E85 will give you a ton of torc as well
in a Fiero with headers that setup you could go with a 3" sc pulley due to less weight
If you want to autocross it the less weight you have in the back the better. You can have all the power in the world but if you can't keep the back of the car in the back it will not autocross very well. Auto cross is NOT a HP race. ( but I sure enjoyed my 467 ci vet at auto cross ) think about a all aluminum engine. I have a 3.5 DOHC V6 all aluminum engine. you can get them. I would not want to try to make big HP with it, but it would over power the rear tires at a autocross just stock.
Originally posted by BillS: Well, not necessarily.
I'm going on 22 years with a 3.2 turbo blown to 13 psi that has been completely reliable. It depends on how you do it. 275-300 BHP are fairly easy to get. Like anything, you have to be willing to spend some money. It may even be more money than getting the same power from the 3.8, I can't comment on that.
"spending money"... yep, that's what does it.
quote
Originally posted by zkhennings:
I have not seen many turbo 2.8s blowing up though is the only thing....
blowing up isn't the only measure of reliability. Does it start? Does it run? Does it run well? Does it run at its best? Can it do that every day?
How much does the typical 3800 swap cost? In my area I can pick up a 3800sc for $500.
The 2.8 turbo would cost me...
~$250 for the turbo ~$400 for A/W intercooler ~$150 for ECM swap ~$300 for programming ~$150 for fuel pump and mustang injectors - couple hundred for all the piping... - Already have the exhaust taken care of
Which comes out to around $1500
For the 3800 I would need a new fuel pump, the computer and wiring harness. I could do the wiring harness myself. So I would need a C500 and the other connectors. Exhaust is probably a few hundred dollars in SS tubing and bends.
How much work usually needs to be done to the engines themselves when they are received in their junkyard stage?
What I mean by this is do the injectors need to be cleaned? Any gaskets need to be changed? Any sensors typically in need of replacement? That sort of thing because OBD2 sensor prices add up quick.
It is just a hard situation because I built a brand new 2.8 to be turbocharged, and it seems like such a waste to not do that now... But turbocharging would probably cost more than the swap would.... If they were easy engines to sell I would not be having this dilemma... I did not have enough money to do a swap when I built a new 2.8 which only cost around $650 to do everything including the cam, and I put a ton of effort into it porting the heads and intake and exhaust, plasti-gaging everything... Putting an engine together is a lot of work as it is. I spent at least a hundred hours on that engine making it perfect and I am having a hard time accepting that I will just use it for a year or so.
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2013).]
Originally posted by zkhennings: How much work usually needs to be done to the engines themselves when they are received in their junkyard stage?
What I mean by this is do the injectors need to be cleaned? Any gaskets need to be changed? Any sensors typically in need of replacement? That sort of thing because OBD2 sensor prices add up quick.
Personally if it were me and I got a 3800 engine from the junkyard here are the things I would go ahead and do/check if it's high mileage: Replace the lower intake manifold gasket with aluminum ones (these engines are notorious for leaking there) Replace the S/C gasket as well. Pick up some new o rings for the injectors(you will need 12 of them). Oil pan gasket while the engine is on the stand Timing cover gasket(begins to leak over time) Front seal gasket I wouldn't bother with the head gaskets unless you want piece of mind The other thing to consider is between cylinder 3 and 5 on the head can crack. I have seen this countless times one of which was a friends car who kept having an overheating issue. We pulled the heads, dropped them off at the machine shop and that's when we were told about the crack. This crack was not visible by the naked eye. So for piece of mind you may want to have the heads checked. It would be a good idea to go ahead and change out the timing chain. This is a must if planning on doing a cam. Replace valve springs. Many have seen horsepower free up just by valve springs replacement due to the factory ones being worn. Put a new crankshaft position sensor (another item that many end up having issues with.) Last but not least you are going to want to check the compression.
Again most of that is up in the air pending the mileage of the block. But if you are planning for a swap you might as well replace many of the worn items while it's out of the car.
With that being said my 208k mile L67 is still running the factory valve springs, timing chain, head gaskets, and crankshaft position sensor.
[This message has been edited by Slow6 (edited 07-22-2013).]
Personally if it were me and I got a 3800 engine from the junkyard here are the things I would go ahead and do/check if it's high mileage: Replace the lower intake manifold gasket with aluminum ones (these engines are notorious for leaking there) Replace the S/C gasket as well. Pick up some new o rings for the injectors(you will need 12 of them). Oil pan gasket while the engine is on the stand Timing cover gasket(begins to leak over time) Front seal gasket I wouldn't bother with the head gaskets unless you want piece of mind The other thing to consider is between cylinder 3 and 5 on the head can crack. I have seen this countless times one of which was a friends car who kept having an overheating issue. We pulled the heads, dropped them off at the machine shop and that's when we were told about the crack. This crack was not visible by the naked eye. So for piece of mind you may want to have the heads checked. It would be a good idea to go ahead and change out the timing chain. This is a must if planning on doing a cam. Replace valve springs. Many have seen horsepower free up just by valve springs replacement due to the factory ones being worn. Put a new crankshaft position sensor (another item that many end up having issues with.) Last but not least you are going to want to check the compression.
Again most of that is up in the air pending the mileage of the block. But if you are planning for a swap you might as well replace many of the worn items while it's out of the car.
With that being said my 208k mile L67 is still running the factory valve springs, timing chain, head gaskets, and crankshaft position sensor.
Thanks, that is all great advice, I will start pricing things out. I would probably go with the double roller timing chain kit too and I would definitely be doing a cam and valve springs.
And by the way I would be doing a series 2 engine
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2013).]
Thanks, that is all great advice, I will start pricing things out. I would probably go with the double roller timing chain kit too and I would definitely be doing a cam and valve springs.
And by the way I would be doing a series 2 engine
No problem, glad to be a help in your quest for more power. Which cam are you considering going with? Don't forget if you do a double roller timing chain you will need to double gasket the factory cover or purchase a machined cover like this that ZZP sells: http://shop.zzperformance.c...-Oil-Pump-Cover.aspx
I am looking at the XP cam which require 140# springs and double roller timing chain. Double paper gaskets for the timing cover correct? I am only looking at this cam because ZZP says it is good. But, does it give a lumpy idle? I do not care that much about traffic drive ability. My car is currently a huge pain to drive in traffic partly due to the cam, I am used to it.
Do these engines benefit from/ does a high volume oil pump exist? Do these engines have a windage tray? Are there any problems with these engines starving for oil turning hard right or left? I know many of you 3800 guys drag your cars, but I would be looking to do more road racing.
[This message has been edited by zkhennings (edited 07-22-2013).]
I might be able to help provide some input as I have owned GTP's for the past 7years and currently my 97 GTP is turbocharged. Without the use of nitrous with a S/C getting over the 300whp mark typically requires some sort of cam. You have plenty of options available, but really boils down to how far you want to go with the engine. Ron Vogel a few years back complied a list of cams(clubgp) and their effects on the back half in the 1/4 mile. Repeatedly, the S1X out performed the XP cam, giving it the edge for those that opted to stay with stock heads(no port work). However, with port work the XP out shined the S1X every time.
Guys are having to run sub 3.0 pulleys to obtain anywhere near 350whp(without the help of nitrous). Many of which are running a fullsize intercooler so be sure and add that to your list of needs. I would recommend going 42lb injectors as that should suffice at those power levels if you are not planning on going E85.
The most I was able to muster before going turbo on my 98 GTP was 271hp/325tq on a 1.9 rocker/SSIC/3.25 pulley set up.
On my 97 turbo GTP my mods were: 1.9 rockers PT-61 2.5" exhaust turbo back plog intercooler L36 top swap HVIII 42lb injectors ZZP PCM On 12 PSI, the car put down 346whp/575tq which is low according to many Turbo GP guys.
Honestly, if you are on a budget and not looking for huge power I would suggest staying S/C, doing a pulley drop, S1X cam, and throwing some nitrous at it. That will honestly be your quickest and cheapest way to obtaining 350whp. However, keep in mind the things I did were in a car much heavier than a Fiero, so I can only imagine what it feels like to have 300whp in a smaller lighter car.
Cheers Jonathan
I have researched nitrous and I keep hearing injecting it in front of the rotors strips the teflon coating off - thus comprimising the seal... I do not have any direct experience with this - do you have info that contradicts this accusation?
my 99 GTP i had close to that HP by running E85 42.5lb injs custom tune 3" down pipe w/hi flo converter cold therm stat and 3.25 pulley on the SC Amsoil 0w-30 and i had only 1-2 deg. of knock... the E85 will give you a ton of torc as well
in a Fiero with headers that setup you could go with a 3" sc pulley due to less weight
3" pulley at the track with e85 - it is true.
------------------ 84 NB, 3800SC, E-85, VS Cam, 3.0 Pulley, 4T65E-HD, HP Tuners, AEM Wideband, Regal GS Gauges, S-10 Brake Booster. 1/4 mile -12.05 at 111.7mph
I built a 97 gtp had some major power, xp hot cam ls1 valve springs. 3.25 pulley 42.5 lb injectors plog and ported manifold. N* tb.and a alky injection system instead of an intercooler.. and tuned thru hp tuners. I will say it was wicked fast in that heavy ass car... I could onlyIimagine how fast it would have been in a fiero.. . Which I shall know soon because I'm currently building the exact same setup yet again
I am looking at the XP cam which require 140# springs and double roller timing chain. Double paper gaskets for the timing cover correct? I am only looking at this cam because ZZP says it is good. But, does it give a lumpy idle? I do not care that much about traffic drive ability. My car is currently a huge pain to drive in traffic partly due to the cam, I am used to it.
Do these engines benefit from/ does a high volume oil pump exist? Do these engines have a windage tray? Are there any problems with these engines starving for oil turning hard right or left? I know many of you 3800 guys drag your cars, but I would be looking to do more road racing.
XP requires 140lb springs? That's the first I have heard of that. Most guys just run the 105lb springs unless you are going XPZ cam. But is see ZZP is recommending them now. As far as being lopy. Yes it is, but its not terrible. If you are staying stock heads go with the SX1 from www.intense-racing.com Ron Vogel on clubgp compiled a list of those of us running 1.9's and various cams. There was a larger percentage of guys that had a higher mph in the back half with the S1X and stock heads. When ported heads were added the XP cam won hands down. That's between those two where as the XPZ out shined them, but that's pretty much a race only cam IMO.
quote
Originally posted by DimeMachine:
I have researched nitrous and I keep hearing injecting it in front of the rotors strips the teflon coating off - thus comprimising the seal... I do not have any direct experience with this - do you have info that contradicts this accusation?
No, I have sprayed nitrous and saw no ill effects. I have also seen numerous guys with the same results and then a friend who is local and sprayed a 125 shot on his L67 regal and had no negative effects on the rotor coating as well. If you are thinking of spraying its worth every penny.
If you want to autocross I would look a Notchy for less weight, I would look for a manual trans and I would look for a 2.0L turbo 4 cyl. Or a properly assembled Quad 4. A 4 cyl will be lighter weight so as to lessen that midengine rear drive problem. With a heavier engine (3800) the back will come out on you when cornering hard and hot. If you want to autocross-Solo2, do a search and see what the other people are doing with their Fieros.
If you want to autocross I would look a Notchy for less weight, I would look for a manual trans and I would look for a 2.0L turbo 4 cyl. Or a properly assembled Quad 4. A 4 cyl will be lighter weight so as to lessen that midengine rear drive problem. With a heavier engine (3800) the back will come out on you when cornering hard and hot. If you want to autocross-Solo2, do a search and see what the other people are doing with their Fieros.
I think the quad 4 weighs the same as the 2.8 v6. I will start with the 2.8 autocrossing but I would like to road race much more than autocross or just have it be a trackday friendly car. There are a few v8 fiero racecars and they do good on the road courses even with the much heavier engine. I don't think the 3800 weighs a ton more than the 2.8, I know lighter is better, but I like how the 3800 like the gm LS engines are pretty bulletproof and I think it would make a great race engine. If I only wanted to do autocross I would definitely be going for a lighter engine like an ecotec
I guess my title by this point is very misleading...
Are there any arguments you guys can convince me to install a 3800 (within the next year and a half) instead of turbo the 2.8 even though I just built it and spent so much time on it?
Theres alot of old buick T-type regals (not the grand Nationals) with 3.8 setting around. find one of those motors and they can handle the boost you wanna throw at it. they were built for it (to a point) Great platform to start with. Im running the 3.4 OHV and its beefed up. got massive torque down low kinda crappy after 4grand. Next year ill do the Buick T-type 3.8 swap. of course ill label it a GNX because of all the atermarket GNX goodies im going to put on it. 350HP is easily achievable with that motor and if you got deep pockets the skys the limit. after many talks with sinister about boosting 2.8 and 3.4 OHV he told me that the amount of boost you can put to one isnt much, their not built for it. and he will clearly tell you that before he programs a ECU for you. just hate to see good ppl put alot of money into their pride and joys just to scatter them down the block. just my 2cents
Yea I agree with you both, I would have to do a lot more work to my 2.8 to have an engine that will last a while, especially if I track day the car. And hey I can enjoy the engine for over a year probably and by then I doubt I will care as much about going with something new. I just hope I can sell the engine, it would be a waste to have it sitting around my basement.
I guess my title by this point is very misleading...
Are there any arguments you guys can convince me to install a 3800 (within the next year and a half) instead of turbo the 2.8 even though I just built it and spent so much time on it?
I'm not aware of what the capabilities are with the 2.8, but I can tell you that many have gone 500+whp on a stock bottom end with the 3800 series II. Which to me is a major selling point. Then again if you are not looking for a decent power increase then I personally see no sense in swapping engines.
I am looking for around 300, I just wanted to know what it took to do 350 with the supercharger for purely smooth powerband reasons.
In my head I was thinking that eventually I would beef up the 2.8 a lot and push around 18 pounds of boost to get over 300 hp, but I realized it would last maybe 2 years max and cost a lot. And I drive my car hard, around town if I am feeling spirited all my driving is above 3500 rpms...
I should have lived with my oil burning 2.8 for a while longer last summer and this year and just saved up the money for the 3800... my current 2.8 is really fun though, it has some decent power for a fiero, I timed my 0-60 at a little under 7 seconds when I shift as fast as I possibly can and ride second out until like 6100 rpms ish... I have an isuzu so the gear ratios kind of suck... but it is not fast enough unfortunately so therefore 3800...
I would do f23 swap at the same time btw I can't believe my isuzu hasn't blow up yet, I am sure the slipping clutch helps
why are you shifting out that high? you run out of torque (which propels the car) at like 4500. your actually loosing time shifting that high. you want to shift at peak TQ. when i first started racing before running CDRA circuit i also thought i had to shift that high. after many lessons and lost races by tenths i finally listened up to what ppl were telling me there. Dynoed the truck. peak TQ was 5100rpm. off the bottle and 6900 on the bottle. Giggle gas does wonders for that TQ curve. Everyone Wants HP but in the end its that TQ number that means the most. Take a diesel for instance. 380 hp but 690 TQ and their quick as hell. try lowering your shifting rpm a bit and youll get quicker . Years of experince taught me that. and it works
why are you shifting out that high? you run out of torque (which propels the car) at like 4500. your actually loosing time shifting that high. you want to shift at peak TQ. when i first started racing before running CDRA circuit i also thought i had to shift that high. after many lessons and lost races by tenths i finally listened up to what ppl were telling me there. Dynoed the truck. peak TQ was 5100rpm. off the bottle and 6900 on the bottle. Giggle gas does wonders for that TQ curve. Everyone Wants HP but in the end its that TQ number that means the most. Take a diesel for instance. 380 hp but 690 TQ and their quick as hell. try lowering your shifting rpm a bit and youll get quicker . Years of experince taught me that. and it works
also had to add Ppl with turbos their TQ curve also differs from NA motors not quite as massive of gain as giggle gas but close.
why are you shifting out that high? you run out of torque (which propels the car) at like 4500. your actually loosing time shifting that high. you want to shift at peak TQ. when i first started racing before running CDRA circuit i also thought i had to shift that high. after many lessons and lost races by tenths i finally listened up to what ppl were telling me there. Dynoed the truck. peak TQ was 5100rpm. off the bottle and 6900 on the bottle. Giggle gas does wonders for that TQ curve. Everyone Wants HP but in the end its that TQ number that means the most. Take a diesel for instance. 380 hp but 690 TQ and their quick as hell. try lowering your shifting rpm a bit and youll get quicker . Years of experince taught me that. and it works
You want to shift at peak HP. Also my car is not stock and has a bigger cam and everything is ported, and custom exhaust. I run out of air at like 5500 rpms now so I shift around 5000 generally. I only went to 6100 ish for 0 - 60 because the shift from second to third looses a lot of time.
oh ok , typically you never shift that high then. you mentioned shifting at peak HP too. let me give you a example. Tq pushes your car . lots of motors can generate HP even after TQ peaks but the car doesnt go any faster. Why is that? Look at alot of dyno sheets and talk to racers HP is a number to brag about, but TQ number is what wins them races. I bragged too when i was racing My s10 had over 1100hp on the bottle. but shifting with TQ peak won me races.
!
yet again
