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What to do when 2.5 doesn't start by bobace455
Started on: 06-15-2013 10:22 AM
Replies: 31 (785 views)
Last post by: bobace455 on 09-29-2013 08:56 PM
bobace455
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Report this Post06-15-2013 10:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I posted 6 months ago about a glowing red exhaust manifold on a Duke. This forum is the reason it was resolved! But this is a head scratcher....

Car: 1986 stock Iron Duke (distributor), 5 speed Izuzu

Symptoms: Ran very very well for the 6 months I have had it running. I was driving it in the garage a week ago and rpms lowered and it sputtered a few times and stalled. I tried to start it again but it turns over as if it has too much compression....weird. If I floor it when I turn it over I can get it to spin like normal, it will pop once, backfire a huge fireball out of the throttle body and then turn over slowly like it has too much compression again. (You know: rr....rrr....rrr...rrrr). This is not a battery/starter issue! I have jumped it, and fully charged it.

What I have replaced or checked in the past month:
Cylinder compression - 150-157 across all cylinders (abnormally high?)
All fuel components including new pump (works well) and overhaul throttle body
Checked Ignition module, replaced dist cap, rotor, plugs, wires. Has good hot blue spark.
Checked rockers, all are moving
I have recently cleaned and greased all grounds
New sensors - oxygen, oil pressure, temperature, and tested TPS and MAP=Good

If it was extremely flooded, it would at least try to do something more with the throttle wide open. I have even unplugged the injector and turned it over to clear it out and nothing. There is a nice spray coming from the injector as well. What would you suggest I try next? I have run out of ideas. Suggestions welcome and I will let you know if I have already done that (hard to keep track from a year long project).
I have seen a couple threads about similar issues, but the one turned out to be the crankshaft position sensor, which the 86's do not have (correct?).
Thanks!!
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trotterlg
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Report this Post06-15-2013 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
My guess would be cam timing, the cam gears are bad actors on these engines, so it may have broke a couple of teeth and the cam is badly out of time. Larry
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-15-2013 03:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Unplug the coil to ICM 2 conductor wire and crank it. Does it crank normally? If so your timing is way too advanced.

I suspect the timing is too advanced. When you floor it the injectors are not pulsed. No gas in the cylinder means the cylinders don't fire and it cranks normally.

To retard your timing - loosen the hold down bolt and turn the distributor body in the same direction the rotor spins (clockwise). After you get it to start you then need to time the engine with a light and jumpering A-B.

When the timing is too advanced and you try to start it, when a cylinder fires the piston is before TDC. The firing of the cylinder stops the cranking of the engine for a second and then when the starter can overcome the compression it starts going forward again.

When the teeth on your cam gear fails, your cam will stop turning. Cam not turning also means the distributor doesn't turn. It won't jump a tooth. When it gets that bad the gear just fails.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-15-2013).]

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Report this Post06-15-2013 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would normally think that too about the timing gear, but the way it failed is what makes me think that. I don't know any way the timing would all of a sudden advance it's self like 20 degrees. Larry
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bobace455
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Report this Post06-15-2013 04:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Phonedawgz: Thanks, I have been messing with the distributor placement for a bit, but I have not tried just unplugging something to stop the fire to see if that is the issue. I am assuming unplugging the coil wire will have the same effect. I will try that later. I'm not sure how the timing would change enough to kill the engine when it was running perfectly and then sputtered and stopped. Thanks!

Larry: There is an ongoing debate as to whether these gears can slip a tooth, but now that you mention it, it is at that age (162,xxx) and was recently revived from sitting in the mud for 12 years.... Do you know if there is any way to check this? (valve timing or timing gear) without having to take off the timing cover? I understand that requires at least partially dropping the engine to get a puller on the crank's pulley. Thanks!
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Report this Post06-15-2013 05:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think it will be hard to check. I would pull the plugs and the valve cover, then rotate the engine by hand with a wrench on the crank pulley. You can then see if the valves open at about the right place, like the exhaust valve open about bottom dead center or the intake opening at about TDC. If ti is way off then you may have to look further. It is sort of a longer shot, but the way it failed is sort of a clue. Also, the gear could have sheared a pin or key? Never know. Larry
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-15-2013 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Turn the engine clockwise using the balancer bolt. Then the timing mark is getting close to TDC have someone put something in the spark plug hole to verify the timing mark is still correct. The 2.8s have a rubber mounted ring on the balancer that sometimes moves. Assuming the timing marks look like TDC = TDC then have your assistant put his finger over the #1 hole. Continue to turn the engine clockwise until he states air is pushing past his finger. Then continue turning the crank clockwise till you get to 10deg before TDC per the timing marks. Stop there. Don't go past and then reverse into position.

Now open the distributor. Look at the rotor. The rotor needs to be pointing to the #1 spark plug wire tower. If so then fine tune align the prongs and points under it (by rotating the dist body). Then snug the dist down. Make sure again the rotor is still pointed at the #1 plug wire. If not, you can rearrange so the #1 is the wire it is pointing at. Remember the firing order is 1 - 3 - 4 - 2. The dist turns clockwise.

With the timing set per this procedure the engine will be close enough to start. Again set the timing with a light after you get the engine running.

re timing slip - //www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/127063.html
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bobace455
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Report this Post06-15-2013 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I will follow this procedure tomorrow! If anything it will clear up the timing gear question.

Are compression readings of 157 normal for a 2.5? Seemed high to me. When I first tested them 6 months ago, they were all around 125 (that was before it was running well) so I am assuming the rings have seated a bit better since then?
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Report this Post06-15-2013 06:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
This will be all fine and good as long as the cam is still timed with the crank. Larry
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Report this Post06-15-2013 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I ask if that is 'high' because I am wondering if valve-train out of time could somehow cause high compression readings.
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Report this Post06-15-2013 07:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, if the cam is not timed rigth the intake valve may close early so there is more air trapped in the cylinder which will show up as higher compression. Larry
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Report this Post06-16-2013 08:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Phonedawgz: Just a clarification, when I take the cap off of the distributor, how can I then tell if the rotor is pointing at the #1 post? Is it just a close estimate?
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Report this Post06-16-2013 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just closer than to #2 or #6 Larry
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-16-2013 09:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So when you have the crank stopped at 10 deg before tdc, then open the dist. Hopefully the rotor is pointing at #1 but maybe not. Align the prongs and points of the pick up below the rotor exactly by rotating the distributor body. Once they are aligned exactly you will notice the rotor is also now exactly pointing at one of the spark plug wire towers. Now assuming you did what I said before and the crankshaft/camshaft of the engine is on the COMPRESSION stroke of the #1 cylinder and at 10 deg before tdc that will be your #1 spark plug tower. Connect the wire from the #1 spark plug to that tower. When using this procedure disregard the pictures in the book of where the wires should be. This is the new correct picture.

I could give you a longer post that would make the dist look like the picture in the book but that is not needed. Just that at this time that the crank/cam is at compression on #1 that the rotor also needs to be pointing to a spark plug tower, and that will be your #1 spark plug tower. Makes sense right? (If your engine IS at 10 deg BTDC on it's compression stroke you had better be sending the spark to the #1 spark plug)

Snug down the dist so it doesn't turn. Put the remaining wires on the dist cap in a clockwise manner following the firing order of 1, 3, 4, 2. Put it together and the timing will be close enough to start. It will be withing a few degrees of the setting with a light.

---

The reason you will never skip a tooth on the geared Duke - There is nothing to flex and allow a tooth to skip. No long metal timing chain. No rubber belt. No Tensioner. Just a steel crankshaft gear and a micarta camshaft gear. They don't flex to jump a tooth. The crank doesn't flex out of the way and the cam doesn't flex out of the way. When something goes bad the camshaft tooth breaks. Once the camshaft tooth has broken there is nothing to propel the shaft to the next tooth. It just stops.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-16-2013).]

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Report this Post06-16-2013 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Okay, thank for clearing that up. I think the only thing that confused me was that the prongs were not aligned over the points on the pickup. So I turned the body so they were aligned (right over top of eachother). Putting it together now...
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bobace455
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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
And judging by the valves on Cyl. 1, the camshaft is moving properly and is where it should be.
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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by phonedawgz:

Align the prongs and points of the pick up below the rotor exactly by rotating the distributor body. Once they are aligned exactly you will notice the rotor is also now exactly pointing at one of the spark plug wire towers.



Okay, one more issue, as you said above, I aligned the prongs and the points by turning the body. However this alignment makes it so the rotor would no longer be pointing exactly at a spark plug wire tower if I was to put on the cap. Was what I did correct then? I have the rotor, the points below, and the prongs all aligned. They all point to about 11 o'clock which is now right between two spark plug towers if I was to put on the cap.

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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here is a picture of it so we are all on the same page....


http://i1340.photobucket.co...2727_zps777d5e54.jpg


It points straight up on the distributor body, when the cap is installed it points halfway between posts 1 and 2
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That's not right.

Pull off the rotor and make sure the notch in the shaft is aligned with the notch in the rotor.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-16-2013).]

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bobace455
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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yep, rotor is on correctly, and engine is at 10 degrees bTDC. Have you seen anything like this before?
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trotterlg
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Report this Post06-16-2013 10:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I think the way it failed is the clue here, it was running perfect, then a big ball of flame out the intake and it quit running and won't start and acts funny when it cranks. I am thinking something stranger than just somehow getting way out of time happened to it. Bet we will find out. Larry
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
V6 distributors have the slot in the top of the shaft line up right between two prongs in the rotor below. The spark plug towers then align to this pattern. A spark is made when the prongs line up. When your spark is made the rotor isn't pointing at a spark plug tower.

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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
So...easy fix?

That makes perfect sense, but I wonder why and how to correct this
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
idk

I have been looking at pics on line of distributors. The bottom piece of the prongs looks to be in the correct position. I don't have a 4 cylinder distributor to double check with what I am saying. Don't over do it but does the rotating part of the prongs seem like it is tight on the dist shaft?

---

6 cylinder shaft - the notch on the shaft is in between the two rotating prongs.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-16-2013).]

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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found one!

1985 Cardone 4 cylinder replacement distributor



note the notch is in the middle of the two prongs. When the prongs line up, the rotor is going to be pointing exactly at a spark plug tower.

The distributor in this picture would be firing and the notch is pointing directly at a spark plug tower.

----

By the way - it looks like the 84 distributor shaft aligns the notch with the prongs. Not sure if that could be a clue in what is happening here.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-16-2013).]

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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
On mine, the way the notch on the shaft is pointing is the way the rotor is pointing - which is directly toward a prong, which is in between two spark plug wire posts.....

So prongs are not in the right spot? Are we thinking the prongs slipped or were moved in relation to the distributor body? Causing it to send spark when it was between posts? If I remember right from my spark plug test, it did seem as if it was sparking twice quickly. I will see if i can in any way turn the posts tomorrow evening.
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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-16-2013 11:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yeah I am really confused as to what might have happened. From the pics I see the static prong position is correct. So I am wondering if the rotating prongs could have slipped on the shaft? Barring that has anyone been messing with the distributor?

From the looks of it the 85-86 duke dist (I think) should have the notch right between the rotating prongs.

From the looks of it I think the 84 duke dist has the notch aligned with the prongs.

Can anyone out there with a 85 - 86 duke confirm this or otherwise prove it wrong?
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Report this Post06-17-2013 09:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Phonedawgz you were absolutely right. Upon further inspection of the distributor, the rotating points (the ones supposed to be attached to the shaft) were relatively loose. It was pretty obvious that it had slipped about a quarter turn on the shaft, thus causing the spark to come when the rotor was not pointing at a spark plug post.

So, I took out the distributor, cleaned up the shaft, tried to scuff it up a bit. Putting it in the vise and using the plain white wall next to my work bench, I used a long straight edge to mark on the wall where the spark plug post is located and then aligned the rotor to that same place. This showed me where the rotating points needed to be (and stay!). I then brazed the rotating points onto the shaft to hold them in place....hopefully for good!

I then put the distributor back in, following the procedures you told me with it pointing at 1 with everything lined up and the engine still at 10 bTDC.

I'll let you know if this solves anything!
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Report this Post06-17-2013 10:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
In that rotating part has a magnet sandwiched in between the steel disks.

Brazing might have killed the magnet.

You can test it by putting a AC volt meter on the pick up coil leads and cranking the engine. You should get 1v AC or more.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-17-2013).]

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Report this Post06-18-2013 01:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It turns over now fine and starts, but misses very badly and cannot rev up. Well, at least we know the issue! Thanks for your help. I am looking into getting a new distributor, I am assuming my alignment for my brazing was off a bit, or the head destroyed something. I found a nice used distributor for $20 to be shipped to me.
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Report this Post06-18-2013 02:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageClick Here to Email phonedawgzSend a Private Message to phonedawgzEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Cool cool.

Glad to hear you figured it out.
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Report this Post09-29-2013 08:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for bobace455Send a Private Message to bobace455Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just an update.....finally got around to getting a re-manufactured distributor. Popped it in (took 10 minutes) and it fired right up as if the last 6 months never happened.

I just got back from driving a Fiero for the first time!!
The shaft on the distributor rusted and the piece that is pressed on there rusted loose and rotated 45 degrees. I tried to solder and braze it back on in the right position, but it was still a bit off and was missing and backfiring. This new one (the picture you posted, acardone) looks a lot better.
I appreciate the help on this. This Fiero just saw the street/highway for the first time in 12 years! Now on to the front suspension (ball joints). Thanks again!
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