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high performance cam for 3.4 by Todd Emmons
Started on: 05-03-2013 07:00 PM
Replies: 23 (1412 views)
Last post by: lou_dias on 09-16-2013 12:53 PM
Todd Emmons
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Report this Post05-03-2013 07:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Todd EmmonsClick Here to Email Todd EmmonsSend a Private Message to Todd EmmonsEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have a 94 3.4 Camero engine in my 86 GT. would like to know if anyone has any suggestions
on what high performance cam would work using my stock 2.8 computer
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trotterlg
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Report this Post05-03-2013 07:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Probably depend a lot on whether or not you are willing to change springs. Larry
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post05-04-2013 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I've heard the 260h cam is a good performance cam. Comp cams sells one, it's similar to the cam that comes in GM's performance 3.4 crate engine.
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Report this Post05-04-2013 01:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
If you do not have to pass emissions then you have lots of options. The iron heads have very poor flow. To compensate for that you need a cam with a little more duration and a smaller lobe seperation angle (LSA). This gives more overlap to help out the top end which is a real problem with these engines. If you want to try something origional I would buy your self a new cam on Ebay (they ar e cheap) and send it to one of the good cam grinders and tell them what you want it to do and what spings and rockers you have. They will make you one up that fits what you ask for. I use Delta Canshafts Inc in Tacoma WA, they have a good rep, but ther a re others. Larry

[This message has been edited by trotterlg (edited 05-04-2013).]

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Raydar
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Report this Post05-04-2013 05:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by masospaghetti:

I've heard the 260h cam is a good performance cam. Comp cams sells one, it's similar to the cam that comes in GM's performance 3.4 crate engine.


The 260 that comes in the crate motor is made by Crane. Not by Comp.
Look for valve lift numbers of .427/.454, I/E. (Probably the largest cam that will work without having to machine the heads for spring clearance.)

IIRC, the Comp 260 has "square" lift numbers. I don't remember what they are, however.

If I didn't want to do head work, the Crane 260 is what I'd likely go with.
If you don't mind a bit of potential machine work, the Crane 272 is quite nice.
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RWDPLZ
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Report this Post05-04-2013 06:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RWDPLZClick Here to visit RWDPLZ's HomePageSend a Private Message to RWDPLZEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
i thought the crate engine came with the Crane 2030?

I'd go with the 260, since the 272 requires additional machine work.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post05-04-2013 07:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I forget what the stock springs bind at...maybe .490" lift. The Crane double springs can support higher lift because they bind >.510" which is the limit of the Fiero heads with flat top pistons on a 2.8. Since 3.1 and 3.4 pistons have a dish, I believe you can run a cam with lift higher than .510" of lift...but you have to check the clearance with the inner lip of the piston. You don't "need" to machine the heads to support V8 springs, the Crane double-springs will support all the lift you can throw at a Fiero head. However there is not much benefit going from .510" to .600 lift, you might as well just stay at .510" lift longer and not worry about clearances...
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masospaghetti
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Report this Post05-04-2013 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for masospaghettiClick Here to Email masospaghettiSend a Private Message to masospaghettiEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

The 260 that comes in the crate motor is made by Crane. Not by Comp.


I understand - I said they were similar, I know they are not the same. (I think I asked that exact question a few months ago, and I think you explained it to me then).
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Blacktree
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Report this Post05-04-2013 12:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageClick Here to Email BlacktreeSend a Private Message to BlacktreeEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
The GM crate engine comes with the Crane H260 camshaft. I think this is beside the point though, because the OP says he has a Camaro engine. The Camaro engine has the Crane 2030, or the equivalent thereof.

The Crane H260 isn't a high-performance camshaft. It's a medium performance cam, for light to moderately modified street vehicles. If you're looking for high performance, it will disappoint. Instead, look at the Crane H272 or some of the Engle cams. Since computer compatibility is a concern here, the H272 might be your best choice. Also, you will not need to do any machinework on the head for the Crane H272 camshaft. You will, however, need some aftermarket valve springs. The Comp Cams #980 will fit the bill.

That said, what does this engine have in it? Is it stock? Are you using the Fiero intake / exhaust manifolds? If you put in a performance camshaft, the rest of the engine needs to support it. Otherwise, the results will be poor.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post05-04-2013 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Om my 3.4L turbo, I used a 272 cam (Comp Cams) something like .445"/ 440" Lift and a 110* lobe center. It does require new springs and the wide lobe center ( small overlap) cam tends to trap the boost from a turbo. Its all complemented by Ross Forged 8.5:1 pistons , ported heads and intakes. The combo works well. I've ridden in 3.4L N/A Fieros with the 260H cam and the performance was not impressive.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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Raydar
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Report this Post05-04-2013 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
...The Camaro engine has the Crane 2030, or the equivalent thereof.
...


The Camaro engine has identical lift numbers to the Fiero cam. (.394/.410, IIRC) Believe THAT or not. (I researched this extensively, with part numbers and everything, at one point.)
The only difference is that the Camaro cam has a "trigger" cast in for the cam position sensor.

BTW... the H260 lift numbers are .427/.454. The 272 is .454/.480.
(Strangely enough, if you put 1.6 rockers on a 260 cam, the lift numbers work out to be nearly identical to the 272.)
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Report this Post09-13-2013 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierofinderClick Here to Email fierofinderSend a Private Message to fierofinderEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I have had my 3.4 for awhile and I have no idea what cam it has. Its a remanufactured not crate engine and I asked the builder to put a more aggressive cam in it but that I wanted it to still pass smog. Non of my paperwork list what cam he used. are there numbers stamped anywhere on it that would tell me. I put 1.6 rollers on my car and worry about bind. Want to get stiffer springs but not sure what to get since I don't know what kind of lift I have.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-13-2013 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierofinder:

I have had my 3.4 for awhile and I have no idea what cam it has. Its a remanufactured not crate engine and I asked the builder to put a more aggressive cam in it but that I wanted it to still pass smog. Non of my paperwork list what cam he used. are there numbers stamped anywhere on it that would tell me. I put 1.6 rollers on my car and worry about bind. Want to get stiffer springs but not sure what to get since I don't know what kind of lift I have.


Binding is prevented by machining down the spring seats and installing taller springs OR buying "double" springs (a spring with another spring inside it).
http://www.summitracing.com...rings-per-valve/dual
I'm sure you can find springs that match the stock diameter and installed height that support the lift you need. You only need "stiffer" springs to prevent valve float. You should probably develop actual valve float before worrying about it though...

I used double/dual springs.

http://www.fierostore.com/P...d=194&nq=0&p=1&sz=50

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-13-2013).]

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daveg
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Report this Post09-14-2013 07:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for davegSend a Private Message to davegEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I would not recommend using Crane springs. I've been through three sets, causing bent valves, and top-end work, usually messing up the driving season - not pleasant. I did have better luck with Manley valve springs, but in the end the latest beehive springs are better for high-lift. The best thing to do is talk to your engine builder.

Crane springs do not last more than one season with the 2030 cam and 1.6 rockers.

dave
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-14-2013 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by daveg:

I would not recommend using Crane springs. I've been through three sets, causing bent valves, and top-end work, usually messing up the driving season - not pleasant. I did have better luck with Manley valve springs, but in the end the latest beehive springs are better for high-lift. The best thing to do is talk to your engine builder.

Crane springs do not last more than one season with the 2030 cam and 1.6 rockers.

dave

I've used them on multiple engines and never had a problem.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-14-2013).]

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trotterlg
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Report this Post09-14-2013 12:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
What I did was buy a new cam and had it ground into what I wanted. You can send it off to some place like Delta Cam or a dozen others. You can have a lift ground in that does not require special springs while increasing the duration and decreasing the lobe seperation to help you with the poor flowing iron heads. Your final cost will come out to be very close to or less than buying one of the "one size fits all" cams that are simply a compromise. New OEM cams can be had for under $40.00 on ebay delivered. Then you get just what your engine needs. Larry
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-14-2013 01:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

What I did was buy a new cam and had it ground into what I wanted. You can send it off to some place like Delta Cam or a dozen others. You can have a lift ground in that does not require special springs while increasing the duration and decreasing the lobe seperation to help you with the poor flowing iron heads. Your final cost will come out to be very close to or less than buying one of the "one size fits all" cams that are simply a compromise. New OEM cams can be had for under $40.00 on ebay delivered. Then you get just what your engine needs. Larry

They are only "poor" flowing stock. There are more than several members here making over 170rwhp with ported heads.

[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 09-14-2013).]

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trotterlg
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Report this Post09-14-2013 01:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, but a 3100 makes 175 hp stock. Even the best done iron heads still suck compared to stock aluminum heads. But the point is that if you do a custom cam you can pick where you want to spend money and effort, if you don't want to replace springs then you can choose a lift that will keep the springs happy while increasing the druation and even how agressive the ramp is. With the standard cams when you get up to some of the longer durations and smaller LSA's they also put in so much lift that it requires head work and different springs. Larry
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La fiera
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Report this Post09-14-2013 03:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for La fieraSend a Private Message to La fieraEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

I forget what the stock springs bind at...maybe .490" lift. The Crane double springs can support higher lift because they bind >.510" which is the limit of the Fiero heads with flat top pistons on a 2.8. Since 3.1 and 3.4 pistons have a dish, I believe you can run a cam with lift higher than .510" of lift...but you have to check the clearance with the inner lip of the piston. You don't "need" to machine the heads to support V8 springs, the Crane double-springs will support all the lift you can throw at a Fiero head. However there is not much benefit going from .510" to .600 lift, you might as well just stay at .510" lift longer and not worry about clearances...

I run .512 lift with 232* @ .050 with flat tops in my 2.8 with the heads shaved .010 and the block shaved .005 and I don't have interference problems? You do need to machine the seat of the spring to find the right installed height of the spring for a specific pressure.
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lou_dias
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Report this Post09-14-2013 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

Yes, but a 3100 makes 175 hp stock. Even the best done iron heads still suck compared to stock aluminum heads. But the point is that if you do a custom cam you can pick where you want to spend money and effort, if you don't want to replace springs then you can choose a lift that will keep the springs happy while increasing the druation and even how agressive the ramp is. With the standard cams when you get up to some of the longer durations and smaller LSA's they also put in so much lift that it requires head work and different springs. Larry


175 stock is 150 at the wheels with a 5 speed. There are plenty of 3.4's with a 260 cam that do that in a Fiero with only a polish on iron heads. Ported heads with a H272 cam and Trueleo intake have dyno'd at 197 with a carb and 205 rwhp with a Trueleo intake on a Fiero. I should be in the 180rwhp range with my next tune and a stock 3400 cam with my iron heads. The H272 cam offers more lift than the stock 3100/3400 roller cam.

If he's bothering to do a cam swap, more than likely the heads will be off the motor and there's no reason not to port them other than cost.
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Report this Post09-14-2013 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for trotterlgClick Here to Email trotterlgSend a Private Message to trotterlgEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Yes, but do the same work to aluminum heads and you get 50 HP more than iron heads on the same engine. No way around it, iron heads just suck, but they are cheap to make for the low cost cars GM put them in. It is fun to see how much of a Slik purse you can make out of a Sows ear, sounds you have done fairly well with yours. Larry
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Report this Post09-15-2013 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Heinz_57_FieroSend a Private Message to Heinz_57_FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Look on the Engle Cams website. They have a complete selection of 60v6 cams including turbo grinds. Currently I'm using their
21640H grind, which has comparable specs to the Crane 272 grind others are using.

http://www.englecams.com/
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BillS
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Report this Post09-15-2013 08:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BillSClick Here to Email BillSSend a Private Message to BillSEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I wouldn't bother with the 260.

If you want to use the 272, you need minimum 9:1 compression and some head work, and fixing the restrictions in the exhaust goes without saying. I run a 272 with a ported reworked 3.4 with 62 mm TB and Camaro SFI intake and it works very well.

I am not a fan of Crane other than the cams - I usually use Comp for everything else.
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Report this Post09-16-2013 12:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for lou_diasClick Here to Email lou_diasSend a Private Message to lou_diasEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by trotterlg:

Yes, but do the same work to aluminum heads and you get 50 HP more than iron heads on the same engine. No way around it, iron heads just suck, but they are cheap to make for the low cost cars GM put them in. It is fun to see how much of a Slik purse you can make out of a Sows ear, sounds you have done fairly well with yours. Larry


Only it's never the same engine.

Here's La Fiera's ported iron head 2.8 putting down ~173 rwhp.


Going thru an entire engine swap for maybe 20 more horse after already doing a simple 3.4 swap is not worth the effort. Might as well just go from 3.4->SC3800 rather than 3.4->3400 and it's more cost effective. The OP should speak to La Fiera about his cam grind and the CNC ported iron heads he is offering for cheap money.
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